hey folks.
i've been on this board for just under seven months and i thank all of you who have contributed so generously to my education on things watchtower, and quite a few other things too.
not all of it was on here but it was through this board i've been directed to sites like freeminds and jwfacts.
Passing through on my way to bed after a long and productive day in the workshop. Another generous contribution from Shelby awaits my attention in the morning. I will have sweet dreams.
Aesop's fable about the sun and the wind comes to mind, Curtains. In my world the person in the fable is my wife and the cloak she's wearing is the Watchtower. All these years I've been the wind.
Good night, all.
hey folks.
i've been on this board for just under seven months and i thank all of you who have contributed so generously to my education on things watchtower, and quite a few other things too.
not all of it was on here but it was through this board i've been directed to sites like freeminds and jwfacts.
Finally a chance to respond, although I haven't too much time this morning. You make some excellent points as usual, Shelby.
You're seriously not FULLY convinced, yet? That is quite surprising.
Absolute certainty on any matter requires conclusive evidence. While I have "known" for a long time that the WTBTS is not what it represents itself to be, up until now I could not put forward the argument effectively. If I was to go toe-to-toe with, say, an elder who has been steeped in the Bible and Watchtower doctrine for decades I would not have prevailed. I would now.
That's not entirely true, dear one. Although it took them over a year to change their position...
I am familiar with this from earlier posts, Shelby, but I can't recall the details. I am interested. If you will provide me with a link I'll go back and read about it. A scan of the communication between you and the WTBTS would be enlightening.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the RC and Anglican Churches part of "western" society, as well as "founded" in Europe AND supporters/proponents of the new world? Indeed, wasn't the RC Church instrumental in establishing "western" society? Are not Protestants and other Bible Fundamentalists part of that society... and wasn't it Protestants who were among the first to settle the new world AND establish "western" society in the U.S. and Canada? Indeed, wasn't it religion... and the issue of religion... what was in the forefront, and hugely responsible... for creating "western" society?
Yes of course, but that's not my point, which was presented within the context of the consideration of evidence to determine guilt or innocent, truth or falsehood, which is secular. It was, in the case of the United States for example, how it was set up by society. I cite in particular the works of Jefferson, Franklin and Madison who went to great pains to separate church from state. The First Amendment alone is enlightening in that respect.
It's right to burst it. The "wrong," however, comes in the HOW... and for what reason. If your issue is with the falsity of the WTBTS and its leaders... work on exposing THAT. But to take issue with the individual for his/her beliefs makes no sense.
A light went on when I read this same sentiment from you some time ago, as you may remember. You've reinforced it here, for which I am grateful. I sometimes lose sight of that dynamic. Given a rational hearing, the evidence mounted against the WTBTS is sufficient to crush it, but by so doing it could crush the faith of someone who has dedicated a lifetime to believing in it. The loss would be devastating in of itself, but the consequences could be far worse if it was accompanied by a loss in the individual's core beliefs when those beliefs are what have sustained him or her through life. I need to be careful. Which goes to your next point:
And many act on that need; however, that need is evident to many who are still in, yet they don't act on it. Why? Again: they don't know where else to GO... and still maintain their spiritual NEED.
From my perspective that is the best of many good points in your long post, Shelby, which you go on to broaden. Where to go after the Society in which you have placed your faith and trust and devotion for decades has been exposed for what it really is? All other organised Christian religions have been absolutely trashed by the relentless Watchtower indoctrination process, and faith in the Watchtower has been effectively equated with faith in God itself. Even some of those who have left still see it as "closest to the Bible" or even "the closest thing to true Christianity". Both those sentiments can be debunked with further expert biblical comparisons and, then what? Is the next step atheism? For some who have left the Society, yes, but it is not a state of mind that everyone can live with. So, where do people who want to maintain their faith in God and Jesus go after they are disabused of their beliefs of the Watchtower?
I realise that my atheism puts me at a disadvantage in this respect. (The famous Emerson quote comes to mind - Who you are speaks so loudly I can't hear what you're saying.) Those who know I am atheist will be less disposed to actually hearing what I have to say, or may even be afraid to hear it. What alternative to the Watchtower can I offer? MS brings up the book "In Search of Christian Freedom". I have thought about ordering it in addition to the other Franz book that I now have. I may get some insights there.
hey folks.
i've been on this board for just under seven months and i thank all of you who have contributed so generously to my education on things watchtower, and quite a few other things too.
not all of it was on here but it was through this board i've been directed to sites like freeminds and jwfacts.
Just passing through. I see a number of posts, including the usual War & Peace from Shelby. I'm looking forward to digesting that one word for word but I can't get to it until tomorrow.
Later.
so...this years memorial came and went.. on saturday my mom called to invite my wife, myself and my two little girls to the memorial on sunday, i said thank you but said that we won't be going.. on sunday my older sister called inviting us also.. we didn't go, since my eldest daughter asked about it, i explaine dit to her and asked my wife and her if they wanted to do it at home and they said yes.. so after dinner, we all partook of our lord's sacrifice and i explained to my daughters how the taking in of christ's body and blood is symbolic for become one with christ and god.. we always remember christ and his sacrifice and last meal whenever we eat and "say grace" but, becuase of the whoel memorial meal thing, we decided to do a little more.. i read from luke and john.. it was very nice, very special.. then this morning at 8:30 am my mom calls and reams me for 40 min over the phone.. why anyone would think that i or anyone else would want to be a part of an organization that fills people with som much venom and spit, is beyond me.. she basically said that she gives up on me, that i am taken by satan, that satan is working through me and leading me and tha her heart is borken for my little girls.. my mother.... my heart is broken, there is a pain in my gut....
Hey there, Paul. You know where I'm at so it will be no surprise to you that my feedback will not be on a scriptural basis. Lots of scriptural experts on this board to draw from, just not me.
Completely different dynamic but my mother was determined to run my life, too. I loved her dearly but she was manipulative and controlling. I fled from her when I was 19, moved a thousand miles away to attend university and then for the rest of her life lived at a distance. I visited my parents frequently, often with my own family in tow, and sometimes during my visits she would ask when I was going to "move home", in between times when she tried to interfere with my life. (Some of those times were when she went ballistic over either my involvement or my wife's involvement in the WTBTS. She was right those times but all the other crap that went down made me stubborn and defiant and I said some things to her I now regret.) My dad asked once if I'd ever move back and I told him frankly that I would like to but for my mother's meddling. He just nodded. I moved back to my home town the year after she died. I wish it wasn't that way but in the end she and I succeeded in diminishing our relationship and took away years and years of being with her, my father and my sibs (all of whom complained about her meddling but who, unlike me, put up with it and stuck around).
Some of what drives your mother is the Watchtower but most of it is because she is your mother. She gave birth to you, changed your diapers, fed you, bathed you, dressed you, comforted you, protected you and laid the foundation for the person you became. She feels a bond with you that is as deep as life itself. She will give you credit for some things but deep down she will believe she knows best what you need in life and that will never change. You will always be her child in her mind and heart.
In hindsight and with the benefit of almost six decades of experience and maturity I would do things differently, and I am certain it would have worked out if only because I had demonstrated my resolve. I would seek a true detente. I would offer to become a greater presense in her life on one condition, and that is if she would accept that I am who I am and the only result that would accrue from her attempts to alter that reality is distance between us, which neither of us wanted. I could be mistaken but I perceive that your challenge is much the same. Putting up with a 40 minute rant is a good indication of the love and respect you have for your mother but is not a good indication of your resolve to live your own life. Whether you and your mother know it or not, the stakes are high for both of you.
i am in the middle of starting a web development business and i have designed some stationary for myself.
good stuff and it will serve my business well, i hope.. my business card design is a high resolution image fit to be printed on a 3.5 x 2 inch business card; pretty straight forward stuff.
i needed some business cards fast (that day) so i took a thumb drive with my files to fedex office.. the place was grossly understaffed.
You're a nice guy, sab, but your business card is your introductory handshake and your ongoing ambasador. During my career I maintained a business card index that I consulted often when looking for people and I never accepted second best when it came to my own. Nice of you to swallow the loss, but now you need to find a reputable place to get some you're actually going to use.
hey folks.
i've been on this board for just under seven months and i thank all of you who have contributed so generously to my education on things watchtower, and quite a few other things too.
not all of it was on here but it was through this board i've been directed to sites like freeminds and jwfacts.
If reality is obvious then Truth is obvious.
The less obvious a real thing is the less likely we are to recognize the Truth of it.
I suppose this is central to what prompted the OP. The more I research the WTBTS, read its own words as well as the words of those who have had the opportunity to be closely associated with it, the more the truth becomes obvious. Millions now (1920s) living will never die. Well, they did. Christ chose the Watchtower (1919) as his official mouthpiece based on it having passed inspection, but almost none of the key teachings are consistent with what is being taught today and, in fact, anyone who might even consider them as correct would be DFed. So many false prophesies that didn't come true cannot be buried. The evidence is overwhelming and conclusive that truth does not reside in the WTBTS.
I'm looking forward to getting that book, lwt.
None so blind as those who refuse to see, goddidit.
Good night, all.
check this out.
the farther into the video the more insane it gets.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3bf0whvsnk&feature=player_embedded.
Love to catch native rainbows or brook trout are very tasty as well
Yes, we had introduced eastern brookies west of the Rockies up in Canada, too. Some got to be enormous. 6-7 pounders, and they outfought the rainbows but without the acrobatics.
Trolled for Lake Trout...my record was a 27-pounder.
Wow. That had to have been a thrill. Biggest laker I ever boated was more than ten pounds lighter than that. I took it out of a long, narrow lake called Chuchi in the BC back country. It was the best tasting lake trout I'd ever eaten. Almost indistinguishable from halibut.
I'm bringing along my dutch ovens and will be making dutch oven dinners like: Chicken Pot Pie, Pork Pot Roast, and maybe some Chile Verde.
Don't know why but your post made my mouth water. Here's hoping you time it right. Must be awesome.
check this out.
the farther into the video the more insane it gets.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3bf0whvsnk&feature=player_embedded.
I really enjoy smallmouth bass fishing - they're great eating, too, especially in the 2-3 pound range, but the bigger ones are more fun to catch. Best I did last year was around 4-5 pounds, so sounds like you've got some great spots in your area.
hey folks.
i've been on this board for just under seven months and i thank all of you who have contributed so generously to my education on things watchtower, and quite a few other things too.
not all of it was on here but it was through this board i've been directed to sites like freeminds and jwfacts.
thanks, lwt. I'll put that one on the list, too. I'm devouring Captives but it looks like Crisis is a bit of a tome.
yes, jay, it really comes down to that, doesn't it? If you're clueless about the WTBTS and happy in your delusions there is no need to leave it. (It makes me wonder sometimes whether it's right to burst someone's bubble. If not for the hurt and harm done by the Society, I would be well inclined to leave it all alone.)
hey folks.
i've been on this board for just under seven months and i thank all of you who have contributed so generously to my education on things watchtower, and quite a few other things too.
not all of it was on here but it was through this board i've been directed to sites like freeminds and jwfacts.
So you acknowledge the existence of truth while remaining aware that no human on this planet has it in whole?
Absolutely. But there are subsets to truth as a whole. What I am reading in Captives by Cameron is a body of facts and evidence which demonstrates that the WTBTS has not been telling the truth about itself, and any organisation that is not being truthful cannot represent Truth in the larger context.
