fulltimestudent

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Posts by fulltimestudent

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  41

  Review of Dr. Chryssides' new book on Jehovah's Witnesses

  by Old Goat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2016/04/a-review.html.

  the book costs 140.00, but i bought it.

  i agree with dr. de vienne's review.

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  fulltimestudent

  oppostate : From the review at http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2016/04/a-review.html it sure seems like Dr. C. got a lot of facts wrong

  I think you skimmed Dr. de Vienne's review. Tracing what happened 150 years ago is difficult (even 50 years ago can be difficult). A scholar can spend decades studying a particular era of history and still have some details wrong.

  That's more pertinent when it comes to a small, obscure sect like the first 'Bible Students' who were Russell's followers. Who thought to keep a diary of the activities of those involved? Who knew all of the movements of the people who appeared in the story.

  For a comparison, look at how little we really know about the life of Jesus or the history of the early church. And what we do have is clearly coloured and biased.

  Twice, de Vienne, makes the point that getting a detail wrong does not detract from the value of the book.

  In the first paragraph de Vienne states:

  "It is free of polemic, largely accurate and well written. ... In these respects it is superior to almost every book written about the Bible Student and Witness movements since 1920."

  And later in his review he writes:

  "While I believe it necessary to point out some flaws, I restate my opening point. This is an exceptional book, well worth the time spent reading it (four times.) It is impossible, or nearly so, to write a book like this and not have errors appear."
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  32

  Are Witnesses really "Bible Students"?

  by stuckinarut2 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we were always told that as witnesses we were "sincere bible students".... carefully examining the scriptures.. yes, we were indeed taught much about the content of the bible, it's history, prophecies etc..... but it was always from one perspective....that of the society.

  when the society changed its interpretations, we had to do the same..... so were we really "bible students", or "society students"?.

  just a thought.....

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  fulltimestudent

  stuckinarut2 : We were always told that as witnesses we were "sincere bible students".... Carefully examining the scriptures. Yes, we were indeed taught much about the content of the bible, it's history, prophecies etc....
  But it was always from one perspective....that of the society.

  For an answer consider the meaning of the expression 'Bible student', to a 'Catholic Christian' who studies the Bible. Can they be a 'Bible student' if they read the Bible from the perspective of their Church.

  Yes, of course.

  OTOH, if by the expression 'Bible student,' you want to describe a person who objectively studies the Bible without a pre-concieved bias toward any particular belief system, then NO!!!

  So an answer is dependent on what you mean by study.

  I suggest to you that most Christians (of all brands) have never been 'students' of the Bible from the second perspective. Reading the NT, we can detect biased statements when particular texts from the OT are ripped out of their context and applied to either Jesus of to the early church, or to the developing doctrines of the church.

  In the early church writings in you can find a lot of really stupid stuff. Just as stupid as anything that old Freddy F ever produced. Take as an example this 'proof' that 'resurrection' is 'natural.'

  Clement of Rome, the third bishop of that church (and therefore an early Pope) wrote a letter to the Corinthian congregation who were having a big quarrel among themselves. Its dated to 95 or 95 CE. after dealing with the Corinthian congregations bitchfight, old Clement encourages the Corinthians to look ahead to the resurrection hope:

  "Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phoenix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed. (Section or Chap 25)

  Link: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-roberts.html

  No-one now surely, would claim that to be part of unbiased study of Biblical doctrines.
  
  
  
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  8

  The first known graffiti making fun of Christians

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  what was the graffiti artist intending when he/she scratched this cartoon like drawing on the wall of a building that served as a training school for imperial guards and personal attendants in the imperial palace area of rome.

  it is known as the alexamenos graffito.. .

  our interest may focus on the crucified figure, but as a tracing of the drawing makes a little clearer - there's another figure of interest, a young male whose gestures indicate that he's praying, and the crudely written text says: .

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  fulltimestudent

  What was the graffiti artist intending when he/she scratched this cartoon like drawing on the wall of a building that served as a training school for imperial guards and personal attendants in the Imperial palace area of Rome. It is known as the Alexamenos graffito.

  

  Our interest may focus on the crucified figure, but as a tracing of the drawing makes a little clearer - there's another figure of interest, a young male whose gestures indicate that he's praying, and the crudely written text says:

  

  "Alexamenos, worship your god"

  Both Christians and pagans worshipped with arm(s) extended and the most likely interpretation of this crude drawing is that the graffiti artist was ridiculing a young slave named Alexamenos, who had become a Christian (either before or after his enslavement), and at times was likely observed to be praying. Since for most Romans in the period the thought of an executed person being a powerful divinity was ridiculous, we can understand why bored guards or attendants, standing around without too much to do, may think and act as the graffiti indicates.

  It all seems to make sense when we think of another item of graffiti, in the same complex (the next door building to be precise). It simply states (and its claimed to be by a different writer) Alexamenos fidelis, - That is, "Alexamenos is faithful."

  Which came first cannot now be ascertained. Did Alexamenos write Alexamenos fidelis to describe his own spiritual goal and his associates drew that cartoon to amke fun of his aspiration, or was it the other way round.

  I would imagine that being a slave and a Christian was not easy. Slaves had few rights, in fact if a young, handsome Christian, male slave had an owner who wished to have sex with him, the slave would have had little choice but to submit.

  The Wikipedia entry seems quite accurate in its discussion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexamenos_graffito

  and an academic by the name of Dr Peter Keegan, at my university, in a book entitled 'Graffiti in Antiquity,' devotes about a page to it.

  https://books.google.com.au/books?id=zwTEBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT1&lpg=PT1&dq=graffiti+in+antiquity&source=bl&ots=5cvfTGFV4i&sig=cc4LMaOpAQg200KPZmP1P4Fc7lU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjy_7Tz35vMAhXDxqYKHfhHDfwQ6AEIUzAN#v=onepage&q=graffiti%20in%20antiquity&f=false

  
  

  Whether we are Christian or not, the above graffiti gives us an insight into the minds of humans when this Asian religious concept was seeping into the western world. It's interesting to consider that at almost the same time as Christianity seeped into the Roman world, Buddhism seeped into the Chinese civilisation of the east.
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  41

  Review of Dr. Chryssides' new book on Jehovah's Witnesses

  by Old Goat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2016/04/a-review.html.

  the book costs 140.00, but i bought it.

  i agree with dr. de vienne's review.

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  fulltimestudent

  Thanks, Old Goat, for drawing out attention to the book. Like Doubtfully Yours, I do not plan to buy a copy, having more interesting academic books on my Book Depository list,

  But if I really need to check something concerning my former loving brothers and sisters, I'll know where to head. That's if I can find a copy. Probably in all of Australia, the National Library in Canberra may be the only library that will have a copy.

  We should also thank Dr. de Vienne, PhD, for his unbiased review. Those of us who want to see our past in an unbiased light should be appreciative of his work.

  Phizzy : Why do I feel that Dr Chryssides is very pro JW ? am I right ?

  I doubt that Chryssides is "very pro JW." He's a historian digging out information and couldn't give a stuff whether the JWs. are right or wrong.
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  Who is supposed to be the first witness to the resurrection of Jesus?

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  1 corinthians 15: 3-8.

  3 "for what i received i passed on to you as of first importancea : that christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures, 5and that he appeared to cephas,b and then to the twelve.

  6after that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

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  fulltimestudent

  1 Corinthians 15: 3-8

  3 "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importancea : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas,b and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born."

  Paul places Peter (Cephas) first. and then a hierarchy of witnesses that seems to be based on his perception of importance in the early church.

  Was Paul's explanation correct?

  What does Mark say?

  Mark 15:40,41.

  40 "There were some women there looking on from a distance, among them: Mary of Magdala, Mary the mother of the younger James and Joses, and Salome.

  41 These were the women who used to follow Jesus as he went about in Galilee and look after him. And there were many other women there who had come up to Jerusalem with them."

  And again in ch. 16:1.2 ...

  16 1-2 "When the Sabbath was over, Mary of Magdala, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they could go and anoint him."

  Clearly in the early church mythology, these women were at the tomb, and the male followers of Jesus were not there. The materialised angel that is described, speaks to the women, and tells them to go to tell the (apparently male) disciples, including Peter, to go to Galilee and that Jesus would meet them there.

  Then, in the Markan account, comes the controversial two endings to Mark. And the so-called 'long conclusion,' states in verse 9,

  "When Jesus rose early on that first day of the week, he appeared first of all to Mary of Magdala, from whom he had driven out seven evil spirits. And she went and reported this to his sorrowing and weeping followers. They heard her say that he was alive and that she had seen him, but they did not believe it."

  If the 'long conclusion' is correct, Paul was wrong, and Mary was the first witness to this miraculous event.

  Why the confusion? If YHWH/JESUS can preserve the Bible as we used to argue when we Jws, then why cant YHWH/JESUS make it clear which is the correct account?

  If you'd like to read more widely on this problem, you could examine Dr. James Tabor's discussion of this controversial point. Tabor compares all the gospel accounts and reaches an interesting conclusion.

  https://jamestabor.com/mary-magdalene-as-first-witness-and-thus-first-among-the-apostles/
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  16

  Not the Author of Confusion

  by Coded Logic in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  609 african independent charismatic.

  black american apostolic.

  african independent charismatic.

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  fulltimestudent

  Haha!

  Don't worry, Jesus has a plan.

  We cant understand it because our minds are not as advanced as his mind.
• 
  17

  I need food for thought..

  by raven in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  hi friends,it has been 20 years that i've slaved for the wt and through out the past couple of years i could feel myself fighting an urge to accept that something was not right.

  i fought it off for so long only for it to resurface frequently throughout my years of pioneering, assembly/convention parts, & speaking with people about the "truth", slaving and giving to try to be a "spiritual person" but in reality i was not spiritual because spirituality (according to the org) is doing all of the things they want you to do.

  which then will label you as spiritual... no !!!

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  fulltimestudent

  Hello Raven - I wouldn't worry too much. Taking time out of the frenetic WT way of life to reflect on what you've been doing for 20 years, is a good thing. Even though I wasted my life - well, I cant change the past, but I've survived and I greatly enjoy myself intellectually.

  Many here have reported that they felt depressed in this period of their lives, I know I did. I went walking a lot - that helped me. I was disfellowshipped, so that was an emotional burden after 40 years in that religion. Turned out to be my "get out of gaol" card. (grin)

  But you asked for suggestions about books.

  May I suggest these.

  Geza Vermes (trans), The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English. Penguin, 2004.

  There are a lot of editions, try to find the latest (2004? ) as they likely have more information. I suggest this book because its informative to examine the development of a parallel Jewish sect that likely influenced early Christianity.

  Geza Vermes, Christian Beginnings: From Nazareth to Nicaea, AD 30-325. Allen Lane 2012.

  Vermes is (IMO) an excellent Bible scholar, and in this book he traces what we know of the development of early Christianity.

  And if they sound sort of heavy going after 20 years a WT Slave, (another grin) try this one.

  Daniel Boyarin, The Jewish Gospels - The Story of the Jewish Christ, The New Press, 2013.

  Some scholars think that Boyarin is one of the best Jewish Scholars. In this book Boyarin examines what contemporary (to Jesus) Jewish writers were thinking about the messiah.

  A good library may have those books, if not try a university library.
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  25

  Update - Talk # 6 THE FLOOD OF NOAH’S DAY AND YOU

  by ttdtt in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  instead of scraping this talk they updated it.. so they still try and make this look like it happened, and that there is plenty of evidence.to do that they refer to the (w08 6/1 8) found at http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2008411the main evidence is that floods have happened in the past, including.... geologists studying the landscape of the northwestern united states believe that as many as 100 ancient catastrophic floods once washed over the area.

  one such flood is said to have roared through the region with a wall of water 2,000 feet [600 m] high, traveling at 65 miles an hour [105 km/hr]—a flood of 500 cubic miles [2,000 cu km] of water, weighing more than two trillion tons.

  similar findings have led other scientists to believe that a global flood is a distinct possibility.. i could not find such an event, except for remembering one of those "disaster" shows on discover about that.

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  fulltimestudent

  Flood Legends:

  Most (if not all) early human settlements were located close to rivers (for continuity of water supplies). If heavy rains occur, then the rivers flooded, and settlements may have been wiped out and some loss of life likely occurred. So it would seem that flood stories were often told, and likely (since they were oral stories) stories would be telescoped together.

  When writing developed (and practical writing materials including a medium to write on) the stories that had been memorised for ages began to be recorded in writing. But there was a practical problem, what you could write was limited by the medium (and whether we would ever read it now was dependent on its durability) on which someone could write the story.

  There were limits on the amount of writing material available. Around the Euphrates/Tigris river system, clay was used, so we have a flood story that endured, written on a clay cuneiform dated to the seventeenth century BCE and earlier. (That's much older than "Israel," so we'd have to say that it is the original flood story, and the Hebrew version (in Genesis) was developed from the Sumerian version.

  You can read some details of the Sumerian version at this link: http://www.livius.org/fa-fn/flood/flood2.html

  In part the author says:

  Quote: "The Great Flood: mythological story about a great destruction that once befell the earth. There are several variants; the Biblical version is the most famous. The possibility that there is a historical event behind the story (a local flood in southern Babylonia in the twenty-eighth century BCE) can not be excluded."

  
  
  

  Quote: "The story of the Great Flood has its origins in Sumer, the southern part of ancient Babylonia. Even though the younger Epic of Atrahasis and theEpic of Gilgameš, written in Babylonian, change many details, they continue to refer to Šuruppak as the city of the hero of the Flood story, even though the Sumerian name of the hero, Ziusudra, has been changed into Atrahasis or Ut-napištim. In the youngest Babylonian version, by Berossus, we see the original name return: testimony to the vitality of the Sumerian story, which has been called Eridu Genesis by modern scholars.

  
  

  
  Quote: "The story survives on a cuneiform tablet from the seventeenth century BCE, of which only the lower third survives. However, this is sufficient to establish that the pattern described above was already present. However, there are small differences. The Eridu Genesis must have begun with the Creation of Man, but continues with the establishment of kingship and a list of cities. Then comes the list of antediluvian rulers, which confirms the pattern again, and the supreme god Enlil's decision to destroy mankind. The reason was recorded on a missing part of the text, but may have been the noise men created, as it is in the later, Babylonian texts."

  -----------------------------------
  

  More to come.
  
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  4

  The YHWH/JESUS INTELLIGENT DESIGN STUDIO's Penis Designs

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there are many things to question about the intelligence of the designs emanating from the yhwh/jesus intelligent design studio.. lauren reid, a phd candidate at durham university, writing in 'the conversation,' takes a look at why humans and spider monkeys are the only primates without a bone in their penises.

  most mammals have such a bone, which is called a baculum .

  humans don't, in spite of the term 'boner,' being in common usage, though whales, horses, rhinos, rabbits, elephants, marsupials and hyenas, were also designed without such a bone.. how does a baculum work?

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  fulltimestudent

  Now let's look at the bean weevil, and you may wonder how long it took YHWH/JESUS to design this instrument of torture.

  

  The bean weevil penis is covered in sharp spikes. Why? A LiveScience description tells us:

  The bean weevil, a type of beetle, has developed a less-than-pleasant device for delivering sperm into the female's vagina: Its penis is covered with hard, sharp spikes. Researchers have found that each act of mating scars the female beetle's reproductive tract, resulting in traumatic insemination. It's possible that the injuries directly benefit the males, however, either because they prevent the females from mating again or force them to spend more effort raising their fertilized eggs and thus insuring that the male's genes are passed on and avoid the strain of future liaisons.

  So each mating actually becomes torture. Interesting to think how that fits into YHWH/JESUS being about love and kindness?
  
  
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  50

  Australia Branch to end magazine printing

  by no-zombie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  just one week from the zone overseer's visit is the announcement that the magazine production by the australia branch will end in a few months.

  the task being transferred to the japan branch.

  while i'm not 100% certain, i understand that this effectively ends all major printing bar perhaps tracts, handbills and other loose items.

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  fulltimestudent

  I'm thinking back to the time when the branch office at Ingleburn was built. I think it was after 1975 and it probably distracted us from thinking too much (then) about Freddy's date fiasco.

  It was built by witnesses with a lot of kerfuffle. John Wilson (a nice guy) wanted his room built a special way. As I recall it, he was told he couldn't do that. A friend who came from the commercial construction field went to work there, and ended up calling it 'the funny farm.' (a colloquialism for a mental hospital).

  All that work, all that time, and they'll likely sell the place. Suburbia has crept around the area (havn't been out that way for years),

  But here's what it looks like. so much land, because they also had a farm there..