aqwsed12345

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  164

  How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

  but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

  new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  aqwsed12345

  @peacefulpete

  Philo of Alexandria indeed had some influence on early Christian thought, particularly in his development of the concept of the Logos (Word). However, while some of Philo's language may bear resemblance to later Christian doctrines, there are significant differences that show why Philo's Logos is not the same as the Christian understanding of Christ as the divine Logos.

  Philo's Logos is primarily a philosophical concept, heavily influenced by Greek thought, particularly Platonism and Stoicism. For Philo, the Logos was an intermediary between the transcendent God and the material world. It was a tool that helped God create and govern the universe, but it was impersonal, abstract, and did not become incarnate in the way that the New Testament describes.

  In contrast, the Christian understanding of the Logos, particularly as presented in John 1:1-14, is that the Logos is not merely an intermediary force or principle but is personal, fully divine, and became incarnate as Jesus Christ. John explicitly states that "the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us" (John 1:14). This is a clear assertion that the Logos took on human nature, something Philo never suggested. While Philo entertained the possibility of God appearing in human form in legends, this is very different from the Christian doctrine of the Incarnation, where the Logos actually becomes a human being.

  Philo may have speculated on legends of God taking human form, but he did not commit to this idea in a theological sense. His Logos remained an abstract mediator, never fully taking on flesh. Philo’s musings about God visiting cities in human form are purely speculative and not central to his philosophy. In contrast, the Incarnation is the cornerstone of Christian belief. The Logos, as understood by Christians, became fully human in the person of Jesus Christ while remaining fully divine. This is a decisive departure from Philo's understanding.

  While there are some parallels between Philo’s thoughts and early Christian writings, especially in the use of the term Logos, Philo’s ideas do not directly inform the Christian doctrine of the Trinity or the Incarnation. The Nicene Creed’s statements, such as "God from God, Light from Light, True God from true God," are not quoting Philo but are part of the Church's development of its Christological doctrine in response to heresies like Arianism. These phrases affirm that Christ is of the same divine substance as the Father, fully equal to God, which Philo never claimed about his Logos.

  Philo does indeed refer to the Logos as a "high priest" in an allegorical sense, but this is not to be confused with the Christian understanding of Christ as the true High Priest. In Hebrews 4:14-15 and 7:26-27, Christ is described as the High Priest who offered himself as a perfect sacrifice for sins. This is a unique role that Philo’s Logos never assumes. For Philo, the Logos is an abstract principle, whereas for Christians, Jesus Christ, the Logos, is a person who performs a real, historical act of redemption through his death and resurrection.

  So Philo's writings, particularly his use of the concept of the Logos, are fascinating, but they require careful interpretation, especially when viewed in light of later Christian theology. While Philo's Logos concept was influential, it is essential to distinguish between Philo's philosophical ideas and the Christian understanding of the Logos, as articulated in the New Testament. Philo’s Logos is not equivalent to the Christian understanding of Jesus Christ as the divine Logos. Philo was a Hellenistic Jewish philosopher who employed the concept of the Logos as an intermediary between the transcendent God and the created world. For Philo, the Logos was more of a philosophical abstraction, a mediator between God and the material world, a divine reason or order, but not a distinct person who took on flesh as Jesus did in Christian theology.

  In contrast, the New Testament's portrayal of the Logos (John 1:1) presents the Logos as not only preexistent but as God Himself, who "became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14). This identification of the Logos with Jesus Christ is crucial and sets the Christian understanding apart from Philo's. While Philo speaks of the Logos as an intermediary or even a "suppliant" to God on behalf of humanity, Christian theology teaches that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, not just an intermediary or high priest.

  The idea of Jesus as the High Priest, as articulated in Hebrews 4:14-16, goes far beyond what Philo suggests in his writings. Philo’s understanding of the Logos as a "suppliant" or intermediary fits more into a philosophical framework, while the Christian understanding of Jesus as the High Priest is deeply rooted in Jewish sacrificial traditions and fulfilled in the New Covenant. Hebrews emphasizes that Christ is the perfect High Priest who not only intercedes but also offers Himself as the ultimate sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 7:27). This role is unique and transcends the role of any human or abstract mediator.

  It is true that early Christian theologians were aware of Philo's writings and that his ideas about the Logos may have influenced some of their vocabulary. However, Christian theology developed its own distinct understanding of the Logos, which is deeply Christocentric. The Logos, in Christian theology, is not merely a philosophical intermediary but the Second Person of the Trinity, coequal with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

  Finally, Philo's Logos remains an impersonal force in his writings, never incarnating or becoming a man. In contrast, the New Testament presents the Logos as a personal, divine being who took on human nature (John 1:14), a key doctrine of Christianity. The High Priestly role of Jesus as presented in the New Testament is deeply relational, tied to the unique identity of Jesus as both God and man. Philo’s abstract Logos never becomes personal in this way.

  While Philo’s ideas may have provided some philosophical tools that early Christian thinkers could utilize, his concept of the Logos is fundamentally different from the Christian understanding. Philo’s Logos is an intermediary, impersonal force, while the Christian Logos is a person—Jesus Christ—who is fully God and fully man. The Nicene Creed's language about the relationship between the Father and the Son, and the Incarnation, does not draw directly from Philo but from the biblical revelation and the Church's theological reflection on that revelation.

  Thus, while Philo might have paved the way for some intellectual groundwork, his Logos remains a distant, philosophical concept, whereas the Christian Logos is the personal, incarnate Son of God, who is worshipped as one with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

  In summary:

  • Philo's Logos is a philosophical concept, a mediating force between God and the world.
  • Christian Logos (Jesus Christ) is the incarnate Word of God, fully divine, fully human, and the perfect High Priest who offers Himself as the ultimate sacrifice.
  • While Philo's writings are intellectually interesting and may have influenced early Christian terminology, Christian doctrine of the Logos, particularly in terms of Christ's role as High Priest, goes far beyond anything Philo suggested. The Christian belief in the Logos is not just about mediation but about the incarnation of God Himself in the person of Jesus Christ, fulfilling the ultimate High Priestly role.

  Thus, while Philo’s writings may have “personified” the Logos to some degree, they never approached the full Christian understanding of the Logos as God made flesh, who is not only an intermediary but the Savior and High Priest of the world.
• 
  164

  How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

  but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

  new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  aqwsed12345

  @peacefulpete

  Thank you for your detailed response. Let me address the points you've raised regarding Yahweh's identity, the "Most High," and how these ideas evolved within the Hebrew and early Christian traditions. I'll provide a clear refutation of the notion that Yahweh was originally viewed as subordinate to El Elyon and that this distinction was foundational for centuries, followed by a discussion on the development of monotheism in the Hebrew Bible.

  You mention that the idea of Yahweh being subordinate to El Elyon (the Most High) is a misunderstanding based on passages like Deuteronomy 32:8-9. Let’s clarify this context. Deuteronomy 32:8-9 refers to the division of the nations according to the "sons of God" or divine beings, with Yahweh receiving Israel as His inheritance. This passage does reflect an early worldview where Yahweh was particularly associated with Israel. However, it does not imply that Yahweh was ontologically inferior to El Elyon or that He was merely one of many deities, with El Elyon presiding over Him.

  In the broader biblical narrative, especially as monotheism developed, Yahweh is increasingly identified as the one true God—not simply the God of Israel but the sovereign ruler of all nations and the Creator of the universe. This is evident in prophetic books, especially in Isaiah, where Yahweh declares: "I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me, there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5). Such texts unequivocally affirm the supremacy of Yahweh as the only God. What you describe as obfuscation in other texts likely reflects a process of theological development where Israel moved from a form of henotheism (acknowledging the existence of other gods but worshiping only Yahweh) to a fully monotheistic belief, where Yahweh is not just Israel's God but the God of all creation.

  You point to examples such as Exodus 23:20-21, where the "Angel of the Lord" is said to bear God's name and authority. This passage and others like it have been interpreted in various ways, but they do not establish Yahweh as subordinate to a higher god, nor do they imply a fundamental duality within the Hebrew understanding of God. The "Angel of the Lord" is often understood as a manifestation of Yahweh Himself, not a separate deity or intermediary.

  The notion of the "second power" in early Jewish thought is an intriguing concept, but it is not evidence of a persistent belief in Yahweh's subordination. Rather, the "second power" refers to a divine figure or agent who functions with God's authority, often viewed in hindsight as foreshadowing the New Testament revelation of the Logos (the Word) or Christ. This interpretation does not contradict the monotheism of Deutero-Isaiah or other parts of the Hebrew Bible. Instead, it can be understood as part of the complex and rich theological development that eventually culminated in the Christian understanding of the Trinity.

  In early Christian texts, such as Philippians 2:9-11, Jesus is explicitly identified with Yahweh, demonstrating that the New Testament writers did not see a tension between Jesus being the Son of God and being fully divine. The "Angel of the Lord" motif was often interpreted by the Church Fathers as a pre-incarnate appearance of the Logos (the Son), showing continuity between the Old Testament concept of divine agency and the New Testament revelation of Christ's divinity.

  You reference Clementine Recognitions and the Ascension of Isaiah as examples of texts that preserve a diversity of theological outlooks, where angels or intermediaries are seen as governing nations. However, these are later apocryphal works that reflect speculative theology rather than mainstream biblical or Christian orthodoxy. While these texts provide insight into various streams of thought circulating in antiquity, they should not be taken as representative of the core biblical or early Christian view of God.

  In both of these examples, the role of angels or intermediaries is highlighted, but neither text presents a coherent alternative to the monotheism that was established in the Hebrew Scriptures and fully developed in the New Testament. Instead, they reflect speculative interpretations that ultimately do not challenge the foundational belief that Yahweh is the Most High God. The New Testament and the early Church Fathers made clear that Christ, as the Logos, was co-equal and co-eternal with the Father, a position solidified in the Nicene Creed.

  You argue that the monotheism of Deutero-Isaiah was not universally adopted and that early Hebrew thought preserved theological diversity. While it's true that Israel's theological understanding evolved over time, the trajectory of the Hebrew Scriptures points decisively toward absolute monotheism. The development from an early form of henotheism (where Yahweh was seen as one God among others) to monotheism (where Yahweh is the only true God) is well documented.

  By the time of the exilic and post-exilic prophets, the belief in Yahweh's exclusive divinity had become firmly established. Passages like Isaiah 44:6 ("I am the first and I am the last; besides me, there is no god") make it clear that Yahweh alone is God, and this belief became foundational for both Judaism and Christianity. The New Testament writers fully embraced this monotheistic framework, while also revealing the triune nature of God in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

  Your argument that Yahweh was once considered subordinate to El Elyon is based on speculative interpretations of certain texts and does not hold up against the broader biblical canon. The development of Israel's understanding of God moves from a context where Yahweh is the national deity of Israel to one where Yahweh is recognized as the one true God of all creation. This theological evolution does not undermine monotheism but instead affirms it. Additionally, later Jewish and Christian interpretations, particularly the doctrine of the Trinity, are not rooted in polytheism or angelic subordination, but in the consistent biblical teaching that God is one in essence and three in personhood.

  The texts you cite, such as the Clementine Recognitions and the Ascension of Isaiah, reflect later theological speculation and should not be confused with mainstream Jewish or Christian theology. They may provide interesting perspectives, but they do not represent the biblical or orthodox Christian understanding of Yahweh as fully divine and the Most High God. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity, as affirmed in the Nicene Creed, maintains that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons but share the same divine essence, fully in line with biblical revelation.

  Thus, the claim that Yahweh was originally subordinate to El Elyon is not supported by the totality of Scripture or by early Christian doctrine.
• 
  164

  How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

  but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

  new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  aqwsed12345

  @peacefulpete
  

  While it’s true that Philo of Alexandria, a Jewish philosopher, introduced the concept of the Logos as an intermediary, the assertion that Philo’s Logos is equivalent to the Christian Logos in the Gospel of John is an oversimplification and misrepresentation of the theological distinctions between the two. Philo’s Logos is rooted in Hellenistic thought, influenced by Platonic and Stoic philosophy. In Philo's system, the Logos serves as an intermediary between the transcendent God (whom Philo calls the Most High God or El Elyon) and the created world. However, Philo’s Logos was not viewed as a personal being, but more as an abstract principle or divine force that represents the rational order and mediation of God’s will in creation. It is an emanation or a bridge between the unknowable God and the material world.

  Philo’s Logos was not God in the personal sense but rather a divine agent or intermediary who was a reflection or shadow of the divine. He was inferior to the Most High God and functioned more like an impersonal aspect or an agent that emanated from God, which is far from the Christian understanding of the full divinity of the Logos in John’s Gospel.

  In contrast, the Gospel of John presents a Logos that is fully divine and personal. John 1:1 says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” This is a clear affirmation of the divinity of the Logos. The Logos is not an emanation or abstract intermediary but is identified as God Himself. John’s Logos is not an impersonal force but a personal being who became incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ (John 1:14: “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us”).

  This personal nature of the Logos in Christianity is crucial: Jesus Christ, the Logos, is co-eternal with the Father, co-equal in essence, and possesses full divinity. The Gospel of John affirms the Logos as not merely an agent of God but God Himself, participating in the divine essence without being separate or subordinate in essence, which differs from Philo’s more abstract, non-personalized concept.

  Philo’s Logos cannot be equated with John’s Logos because of the fundamental difference in divine identity. In Philo’s writings, the Logos is never described as sharing in the full essence of God. Philo’s Logos mediates between the unknowable God and creation but is distinctly not the same as the Most High God (El Elyon). John’s Logos, however, is clearly declared to be both with God and God Himself. This is a radical departure from Philo’s concept of an intermediary figure.

  The doctrine of the incarnation—God becoming man—is foreign to Philo’s understanding of the Logos. In John 1:14, the Logos becomes flesh and dwells among us, which is central to Christian belief. Philo would have found the idea of God becoming incarnate incomprehensible and incompatible with his philosophical framework. For Philo, the Logos did not become human; it remained a distant mediator, a non-personal force that facilitated the interaction between God and the material world.

  In conclusion, while Philo’s Logos and John’s Logos share some similarities in the intermediary role, their differences are far more significant. Philo’s Logos is an abstract principle or divine agent that is clearly inferior to God, while the Christian Logos in the Gospel of John is fully divine, personal, and one with God in essence. The identification of the Logos with Jesus Christ as the incarnate Word is a distinctive Christian teaching that goes beyond anything Philo ever envisioned. Therefore, equating Philo’s Logos with the Christian Logos misrepresents both the philosophical and theological context of these two vastly different conceptions.
• 
  164

  How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

  but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

  new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  aqwsed12345

  @Earnest

  You mention that the liberal use of nomina sacra in the later manuscripts, even in reference to false gods, undermines the argument that these abbreviations provide theological weight in distinguishing the Father and the Son. However, this view overlooks the fact that early Christian scribes, when applying nomina sacra to Christ, were not merely using it out of convention but to signal reverence for Christ’s divine identity.

  Early Christian writers like Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch, and Irenaeus all affirm the divine status of Christ. By the late second and early third centuries, when P66 and P75 were copied, there was already a well-established Christological tradition that recognized Jesus as fully divine. The consistent use of nomina sacra for both the Father and the Son, especially in such foundational texts as John 1:1, reflects this theological understanding. The fact that nomina sacra were also used in mundane contexts does not change the theological significance of their application to Christ in passages affirming His deity.

  Your argument that the use of nomina sacra (sacred abbreviations) in John 1:1 does not support the capitalization of "God" in English translations of the verse because of their usage in other contexts, such as in reference to "the god of this world" (2 Corinthians 4:4) or when the Maltese refer to Paul as "a god" (Acts 28:6), warrants a detailed response.

  You argue that the use of nomina sacra for both "God" and "the god of this world" implies that no special reverence or distinction was intended for these terms in the original manuscripts. However, we need to be careful about overstating the conclusions drawn from later manuscripts like Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. As I pointed out, these were written after the Edict of Milan (313 AD), when scribal practices had changed, and mass copying of texts became more common. This could indeed result in the widespread use of nomina sacra even for terms like "the god of this world," but it doesn't necessarily reflect the theological weight given to those terms in earlier, more controlled contexts.

  2 Corinthians 4:4 is missing from Papyrus 46 for 2 Corinthians 4:4, that portion of the manuscript is damaged, and P46 is the oldest manuscript of 2Cor, if it also contained nomen sacrum there, it would weaken my argument, but unfortunately we cannot verify this. So we cannot definitively argue that the early church applied nomina sacra equally for all instances of "God" or "god," especially in reference to Satan. While later manuscripts show uniformity in this practice, we cannot assume that earlier scribes followed the same convention in all instances.

  In any case, even if nomina sacra were used to describe "the god of this world" in later manuscripts, this would be irrelevant to John 1:1, where the theological context clearly dictates a distinction. The term "God" in John 1:1 refers to the eternal, omnipotent Creator, whereas in 2 Corinthians 4:4, "the god of this world" refers to a false or deceptive power (Satan) who blinds unbelievers. The use of nomina sacra does not equate the status of these two figures, and theological nuance remains key in interpretation.

  John 1:1 presents a profound theological truth, wherein the Logos (the Word) is not only "with God" but "was God" (theos en ho logos). The use of nomina sacra in early manuscripts underscores the sacred nature of the subject, but it does not diminish the distinction or unity in the Godhead that John emphasizes. While later scribal conventions may have applied nomina sacra to both divine and mundane references to "god," the context of John 1:1 cannot be ignored. The relationship between the Father and the Logos is presented in a manner that affirms both unity and distinction within the Godhead—a central element of Trinitarian theology.

  Francis Moloney’s comment that “an identification between the Word and God is to be avoided” is, in a sense, correct, but only when it is understood that John is presenting both distinction (the Logos is pros ton Theon, with [the] God) and unity (the Logos is theos, God). This is the foundational understanding of the Trinity. The Logos shares in the divine essence (not merely a "god" among many), yet is distinct in personhood from the Father.

  While Moloney is correct to caution against collapsing the distinct persons of the Godhead, the absence of the article here does not mean the Logos is anything less than fully divine. As many scholars have pointed out, the predicate position of theos here emphasizes the quality of the Word rather than His identity with the Father. In other words, John is not saying that the Word is the same person as the Father, but that the Word shares the divine nature.

  Grammatically, the lack of the article before theos prevents a misunderstanding that the Word is numerically identical to the Father (ton theon), but it also strongly affirms that the Word possesses the same divine nature. This is why Trinitarian theology holds that the Father and the Son are distinct persons who share one divine essence. Therefore, modern English translations that capitalize "God" in John 1:1c are doing so to reflect the divine quality that the original Greek grammar conveys.

  The argument that nomina sacra support an equal theological status for both the Father and lesser "gods" (like Satan or pagan deities) misunderstands the purpose of these sacred abbreviations. The nomina sacra were employed as markers of reverence, not merely of equality. They highlighted terms of theological significance, but the context and content of the passage determined the meaning and application of those terms. In John 1:1, the use of nomina sacra aligns with the passage’s affirmation of Christ’s divine nature, while in 2 Corinthians 4:4, the reference to the "god of this world" uses nomina sacra to mark significance but does not imply equality with the true God.

  In conclusion, the use of nomina sacra in manuscripts like Sinaiticus and Vaticanus for various terms like "God" or "god" does not negate the distinct theological affirmation of Jesus' deity in John 1:1. The textual tradition and the broader theological context both support the understanding that the Logos is fully divine, partaking in the essence of God, while maintaining distinction from the Father. This is in line with the doctrine of the Trinity, not in contradiction to it. The evidence of nomina sacra does not undermine the understanding of Christ's deity, but rather confirms the sacred regard for terms referring to God in various contexts.

  @slimboyfat

  Francis Moloney's interpretation of John 1:1, while respected in academic discussions, can be misused or misunderstood in broader theological debates. It’s true that John 1:1 distinguishes between the Word and God in the phrase "the Word was with [the] God" (Greek: pros ton theon). This distinction emphasizes the relationship between the Word (identified as Jesus Christ in John 1:14) and God. However, the second part of the verse—"and the Word was God" (Greek: kai theos ēn ho logos)—equally affirms the Word's divine nature. The key point is that John is presenting the Word as fully divine, but distinct in person from God the Father.

  In the Greek text, the lack of the definite article before "God" (theos) in the second clause (kai theos ēn ho logos) indicates that the Word shares in the divine essence but is not the same person as the Father. This is an essential nuance in Trinitarian theology: the Father and the Word (the Son) are distinct persons, but they share the same divine essence.

  The phrase “the Word was God” directly supports the full divinity of the Word, not a mere association or divine quality. The Word is not presented as a separate lesser deity or being, but rather as fully God, co-existing eternally with the Father. This aligns with traditional Christian teaching that the Father, Son (the Word), and Holy Spirit are distinct persons but one in essence (the doctrine of the Trinity).

  The argument that the Bible writers did not know of the Trinity and that Trinitarians retroactively imposed a new definition on terms like "God the Father" ignores the development of theological understanding over time. The New Testament writers often used terms like "God" and "Father" with specific references in mind. For example, when the term "God" is used without further specification, it often refers to God the Father, but this does not deny the deity of the Son or the Holy Spirit.

  John 1:1, for example, does not collapse the identity of the Word into the Father but affirms the deity of the Word while maintaining the personal distinction. This distinction is foundational for the later articulation of the Trinity doctrine, but it is grounded in the biblical text itself. The New Testament is filled with passages that point to the deity of Christ (John 20:28, Colossians 2:9, Hebrews 1:8), alongside the deity of the Father and the Spirit (Acts 5:3-4).

  John's Gospel clearly distinguishes the Word from God the Father, but this distinction does not imply that the Word is not God. It affirms the coexistence and unity of the Word with the Father, a unity that is explained by the doctrine of the Trinity. John 1:1 maintains a careful balance: the Word is distinct in person from the Father (hence, "with [the] God") but fully shares in the divine nature (hence, "was God").

  When you argue that "God" means only the Father, and therefore, the Word is excluded from deity, you overlook the full scope of biblical revelation. John consistently portrays Jesus not only as distinct from the Father but also as fully divine. For example:

  • John 10:30: "I and the Father are one."
  • John 20:28: "Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God!'"
  • Colossians 1:19: "For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell."

  The claim that the Trinity is “a later imposition” on Scripture is also unfounded. The Church Fathers did not invent the Trinity doctrine out of thin air; rather, they sought to systematize and articulate what was already present in Scripture. The term "Trinity" is not found in the Bible, but the reality it describes—the triune nature of God—is clearly reflected in the New Testament. Early Christians, including the Apostles, were confronted with the reality of Jesus' deity, the Father’s deity, and the presence of the Holy Spirit, leading them to formulate the doctrine over time. Moreover, the Bible contains many passages where all three persons of the Trinity are presented in unity:

  • Matthew 28:19: "Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
  • 2 Corinthians 13:14: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."

  These passages support the co-equality and co-eternality of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which are foundational to the doctrine of the Trinity.

  You fail to account for the biblical evidence that supports both the distinction of persons within the Godhead and the shared divine nature of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. John 1:1 does not deny the deity of the Word but affirms it, while maintaining a personal distinction from the Father. The Trinity doctrine is not "a later imposition" but a faithful interpretation of the biblical revelation of God as triune.

  @peacefulpete

  Philo of Alexandria, a Jewish philosopher, did indeed distinguish between "The Most High God" (El Elyon) and the "Logos," which he viewed as an intermediary figure. However, Philo’s conception of the Logos is heavily influenced by Greek philosophical categories and is not equivalent to the Christian understanding of the Logos (Word) as presented in the New Testament, particularly in John 1:1–14. While Philo saw the Logos as a created intermediary between God and the world, Christianity, particularly from the time of the Nicene Creed, has firmly rejected this subordinationist view.

  John 1:1 states unequivocally, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This verse does not present the Logos (Jesus) as a lesser deity or intermediary but rather as fully and eternally divine. The Nicene Creed affirms that the Son is "consubstantial" (homoousios) with the Father, meaning of the same essence. Thus, Philo's view of the Logos is incompatible with Christian orthodoxy.

  The claim that "God the Father" and "God" are synonymous and interchangeable in Scripture is an oversimplification that overlooks the Trinitarian context of the New Testament. While it is true that in many instances "God" refers to the Father (e.g., 1 Corinthians 8:6), this does not negate the fact that the Son and the Holy Spirit are equally "God" in Christian theology. The early Church Fathers, particularly at Nicaea, were clear that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons, yet they share the same divine nature.

  Matthew 28:19 commands baptism "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit," putting the three persons on equal footing. The Nicene Creed reflects this understanding by stating that the Son is "begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father." This means that the Son is not a separate or lesser god, but shares in the fullness of deity with the Father.

  The idea that some ancient traditions viewed Yahweh as subordinate to El Elyon (The Most High) is rooted in speculative interpretations of early Hebrew texts. This theory often emerges from a misunderstanding of passages like Deuteronomy 32:8-9, where Yahweh is seen as receiving his inheritance from the Most High. However, within the broader biblical canon, especially in the prophetic and wisdom literature, Yahweh is clearly identified as the Most High God, Creator, and Sovereign of all (see Isaiah 45:5-7, Psalm 83:18).

  The New Testament explicitly identifies Jesus with Yahweh. For example, Philippians 2:9-11 quotes Isaiah 45:23, a passage about Yahweh, and applies it directly to Jesus. This demonstrates that Jesus, the Son, is fully and completely identified with the God of Israel, who is Yahweh, the one true God.

  The Nicene Creed formalized the belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal. The creed was not an innovation but a formal recognition of what the early Church had always believed: that Jesus, the Logos, is fully God, as is the Holy Spirit, and that the three persons are united in one divine essence. Any interpretation that tries to subordinate Jesus or the Holy Spirit to the Father or present them as separate gods contradicts this fundamental doctrine. The creed states:

  "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth... And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds... very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father..."

  This confession affirms that the Son is of the same divine essence as the Father, not a created being or inferior entity. While Philo's philosophical ideas about the Logos are historically interesting, they do not align with the Christian doctrine of the Trinity as revealed in Scripture and affirmed by the Nicene Creed. The Bible, particularly in the New Testament, makes clear that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all fully God, distinct in personhood but united in essence. The idea that Yahweh is a "subordinate" to El Elyon or that Jesus is a lesser deity is inconsistent with the clear biblical testimony and the Church's historic understanding of the nature of God.
• 
  59

  Proof of two destinies for believers in the Bible, heavenly and earthly

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the jw idea that believers are destined either for heavenly life or for endless life on earth comes in for significant criticism by critics of various kinds.

  even some groups, such as the christadelphians, who share belief in a future paradise earth, don’t share the view that some christians are destined for life in heaven.

  yet there is surprisingly quite a lot of evidence in the bible for the existence of two distinct groups of believers.

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• 

  aqwsed12345

  Psalm 37:29 states, “The righteous shall inherit the earth, and dwell upon it forever.” While this is a powerful verse, it is part of a broader poetic expression within the Psalms about the blessings of the righteous in contrast to the fate of the wicked. The term "inherit the earth" is echoed in Matthew 5:5 ("Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth"), spoken by Jesus during the Sermon on the Mount. In both cases, the term “inherit the earth” refers more to the concept of God's people receiving blessings from God, including the earth as part of God's creation, rather than the exclusion of a heavenly hope for the righteous.

  Matthew 5:5, which is part of the beatitudes of the Sermon on the Mount, is often quoted by JWs, but is Christ really introducing the concept of a secondary salvation "class" here? "Blessed are... for they..." is said nine times here, do they all refer to different "classes"? And if "the meek" really refers to an alleged "earthly class", then is Christ part of this "class" Himself too, since He calls Himself “meek” in Matthew 11:29? Or if the "paradise" in the Bible denotes the earthly inheritance of a secondary salvation "class", then why does Christ say to the thief that he will be "with him" in Luke 23:43?

  The Hebrew word for "earth" (אֶרֶץ eretz) can refer both to the literal land and to a broader notion of territory or blessing. It doesn't automatically imply that all of the righteous will only live on earth and never enter heaven. In the larger biblical narrative, the final hope for believers includes a "new heavens and a new earth" (Isaiah 65:17, Revelation 21:1). This new creation is a harmonized union of both heaven and earth under God's perfect reign.

  Revelation 21:1-3 presents a vision of "a new heaven and a new earth," where God dwells with His people, and this heavenly Jerusalem descends to earth. The key point here is not that believers are divided into two separate classes (those in heaven and those on earth), but that God's ultimate plan is the unification of heaven and earth. In this new creation, all believers—those who are "righteous" and have placed their faith in Christ—share in eternal life with God, wherever He dwells.
• 
  164

  How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

  but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

  new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  aqwsed12345

  @Rattigan350

  You suggest that the earliest Christian beliefs, as recorded in Acts, didn't include the deity of Jesus, pointing to passages where Jesus is distinct from God the Father, such as Stephen's vision of Jesus at God’s right hand (Acts 7:56) and Peter’s sermon (Acts 2), where God raises Jesus. However, this interpretation misunderstands the full theological picture, particularly how early Christians understood the relationship between Jesus and God.

  The claim that John’s Gospel, written 65 years after Jesus’ death, introduces “new” theology that contradicts Acts misunderstands early Christian Christology. The deity of Jesus is not invented later. While it’s true that different writings emphasize various aspects of Jesus’ identity, early Christian preaching, especially in Acts, reveals the early belief in the pre-existence and exaltation of Jesus. For example Acts 7:56 shows Jesus in a position of supreme authority at the right hand of God, a reference to Psalm 110, which is understood in early Christianity to affirm Jesus’ unique status alongside God. This doesn’t deny His deity but affirms His unique role in salvation history.

  The idea that John’s Prologue emphasizes “only” the pre-existence of the Word (Jesus) and not His deity also doesn’t hold. The term “Logos” and the opening of the Gospel (“the Word was God”) points directly to the fully divine nature of Christ, not merely His pre-existence. The distinction between the Father and the Son is consistent with Trinitarian theology, where Jesus is distinct in person but one in essence with God.

  It’s a mistake to say Acts denies Jesus’ deity. While Acts often emphasizes Jesus’ resurrection and the Father raising Him from the dead, this fits into the overall New Testament framework that sees Jesus as both fully divine and fully human. The resurrection doesn’t negate Jesus’ deity but shows His authority over life and death, affirming His divine power.

  The claim that “The Word became flesh” in John 1:14 means that only the Word, and not God, became flesh is also incorrect. The phrase doesn’t imply that the Word is separate from God; rather, it affirms that the divine Logos took on human nature in the person of Jesus Christ. This is the foundational doctrine of the Incarnation in Christian theology, where God became man.

  Early Christian writings, including Paul’s letters and hymns, already reflect a high Christology, acknowledging Jesus’ pre-existence and divine role in creation (see Philippians 2:6-11, Colossians 1:15-20). This isn’t an invention of later theology but a consistent witness across the New Testament, showing the early belief in Jesus' deity.

  In summary, the argument misinterprets both the texts of Acts and John, and misunderstands how early Christians understood Jesus as both distinct from the Father and yet fully divine, an understanding that becomes more explicit in John but is not a contradiction of earlier writings.

  @Wonderment

  You claim that John 1:1 shares the same grammatical structure as John 4:19 and Acts 28:4, where the predicate noun precedes the verb. However, in Koine Greek, the construction in John 1:1c, "theos en ho logos", involves a crucial difference: the anarthrous predicate nominative precedes the verb, which significantly alters its grammatical function. Colwell’s Rule demonstrates that an anarthrous predicate nominative placed before the verb typically emphasizes a qualitative sense rather than definiteness or indefiniteness. The context is also very important, as John 1:1 is found in the prologue of the Gospel, while the other examples are in everyday conversations. Furthermore, it is clear that from a prophet, an Israelite, etc. there are more, but there is only one God, and thus "Logos" can only be "theos" if and only if He is one God is with "the God" (i.e. the Fathere), since it is a monadic term.

  In the case of theos en ho logos ("the Word was God"), the absence of the article is not meant to suggest indefiniteness (i.e., "a god") but rather to emphasize the divine nature of the Word. This is a qualitative construction that underscores the Word’s full participation in divinity.

  You suggest that the Coptic rendering of "a god" in John 1:1 can be interpreted qualitatively, but this is a misunderstanding. In Coptic, as in Greek, the indefinite article does not automatically imply a qualitative sense, and the context here in John's Gospel points toward a qualitative rather than indefinite understanding of theos. The qualitative rendering emphasizes that the Logos fully shares in the divine nature, without implying that the Word is "a (lesser) god" among many.

  Your argument against Colwell’s Rule overlooks its continued relevance in Koine Greek syntax. Colwell’s Rule has been applied to John 1:1c precisely because of its specific construction. Many modern scholars, including Wallace and Harner, have emphasized the qualitative nature of theos in John 1:1c, affirming that it refers to the deity of the Word without confusing the Word with the Father. They reject both an indefinite reading ("a god") and a definite reading ("the God").

  You state that because the Word was "with" (the) God in John 1:2, the Word cannot be God. However, Trinitarian theology affirms that the Father and the Son are distinct persons who share the same divine essence. Being "with" God (the Father) does not imply that the Logos is a separate or lesser god. Instead, it reflects the personal distinction within the Godhead, while maintaining the full divinity of the Word.

  You argue that John’s Gospel does not indicate that Christ is at the same level as God. However, throughout John’s Gospel, Jesus is presented as possessing divine attributes (see John 1:3, John 5:23, John 8:58), and His identification as the "Son of God" in no way diminishes His full divinity. The term "Son of God" within the Johannine context emphasizes His unique relationship with the Father, not subordination in essence.

  In conclusion, the structure of John 1:1c and its theological context clearly point toward a qualitative reading that affirms the full divinity of the Logos. Attempts to translate it as "a god" misunderstand the Greek syntax and introduce theological confusion inconsistent with John’s monotheistic framework.
• 
  164

  How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

  but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

  new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  aqwsed12345

  @slimboyfat

  The claim that nomina sacra (abbreviations for sacred names like "God," "Lord," "Jesus," etc.) were introduced at a "later" stage after the NT texts were written—and that the early Christian authors did not use them—deserves a critical response, particularly regarding the argument's assumptions and historical context. It is true that there is some debate among scholars regarding the exact timing of the introduction of nomina sacra into early Christian manuscripts. However, to suggest that nomina sacra were entirely absent from the original NT documents or from the very early stages of Christianity overlooks several important points. While the earliest NT manuscripts available to us (such as P52) are indeed fragmentary, other early Christian manuscripts—such as P46 and P66, both from the 2nd century—show widespread use of nomina sacra. This suggests that nomina sacra were already well-established by the time these texts were circulating. To assume that the NT authors and scribes did not use them in their original writings seems speculative, given how pervasive the practice was just a short time after the originals were written.

  The adoption of nomina sacra likely developed quite early in Christian communities as part of a distinct scribal tradition, possibly as a way to show reverence for the sacred names and distinguish Christian manuscripts from other texts. This does not require all the NT authors to have spontaneously "decided" to use this notation. Rather, it points to a shared theological and liturgical context in which scribes and early Christians used symbols or abbreviations for sacred words, showing a sense of uniformity across Christian communities.

  The analogy of randomness in this argument—that Jehovah's Witnesses supposedly "randomly stumbled upon" a Christology more in line with what early Christians believed—raises a number of issues. It is inaccurate to claim that recent scholarship “universally” supports a non-Trinitarian Christology as more aligned with early Christianity. In fact, many of the earliest Christian writings, including those by the Church Fathers, strongly affirm the divinity of Christ, as seen in figures like Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110 AD), who referred to Christ as "our God" repeatedly. To argue that the Jehovah's Witness Christology is closer to that of early Christians ignores a vast amount of early Christian literature that supports Christ's deity and the unity of the Trinity.

  The idea that Jehovah's Witnesses have "stumbled upon" an early Christian view of Christology relies on selective readings of Scripture and anachronistic interpretations of early Christian writings. The Watchtower Society's theology stems not from historical continuity with early Christian thought, but from the specific theological innovations and speculations of Charles T. Russell and his successors in the late 19th century. Their rejection of the Trinity is part of a broader theological agenda that includes denying many key aspects of mainstream Christian teaching, not the result of a deep historical alignment with early Christian beliefs.

  Even if nomina sacra were introduced after the initial writing of the NT texts (a claim still debated), their presence in manuscripts like P66 or P46 points to a very early recognition of the unique and sacred nature of certain names and titles for God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. The use of nomina sacra is consistent with the development of early Trinitarian theology, in which the divine nature of Christ and the Holy Spirit was increasingly clarified and defended against heretical views.

  For example, the nomina sacra for "Jesus" and "Lord" (κύριος/kurios), which were used early on, reflect the titles attributed to Christ in NT writings that affirm His divine status, such as John 1:1, where the Word is described as God, and Philippians 2:6-11, where Jesus is exalted and given the name above every name, a clear attribution of divine authority.

  The debate between Bart Ehrman and Daniel Wallace highlights scholarly discussions about various aspects of textual criticism, but the issue at hand is more about how early Christians understood Christ. 1 Corinthians 8:6 does not disprove the Trinity; rather, it affirms the monotheistic framework within which Christians understood the relationship between God the Father and Jesus Christ. Paul distinguishes between the Father and the Son, but this does not imply subordinationism or the rejection of Christ's deity. Instead, it reflects a theological development that culminates in the full expression of Trinitarian doctrine.

  The argument against the Trinity based on the use of nomina sacra or the assumption that early Christians were unaware of Christ's deity is flawed. The nomina sacra tradition, the writings of the earliest Church Fathers, and the NT itself all point to an early and widespread recognition of Christ's divine status. The JW interpretation of Christology is a modern innovation, not a "recovery" of early Christian belief, and should not be confused with the theological developments that occurred in the first few centuries of the Church.

  @Earnest

  Your critique seems to center on two primary arguments: (1) that the use of nomina sacra likely originated as an act of reverence towards divine names and thus reflects a developed Christian scribal practice, rather than something directly tied to the original writings, and (2) that capitalizing "God" in John 1:1 could blur the qualitative distinction between the two uses of "God" (theon) and "God" (theos). I'll address each of these points in turn.

  You argue that the original writers, most of whom were Jewish, likely did not employ the nomina sacra system, as it was a later Christian scribal innovation. While this hypothesis is reasonable, it is not conclusive. By the way, this view is based on some Greek OT manuscripts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, but each of them contains the divine name in a different way, and the Qumran community did not even represent the mainstream of Judaism. From these it is not possible to draw far-reaching conclusions about the scribal practice of the Jews as a whole.

  (Here I will digress for a thought: I once argued with a JW about the hypothesis that if they found one single 2-3rd century NT manuscript fragment which would contain some form of the Tetragrammaton (e.g. IAO). Well, what would that prove? That this was the original apostolic variant? That the JW emphasis on the "use" of the Tetragrammaton was the original mainstream in the apostolic age? Not even remotely! This would prove only that there was also such a thing, we would not really know anything about who made it, what group it belonged to, what theological background represented. For example, according to Pietersma, the Greek OT editions with the forms of the Tetragrammaton are the result of a rehabraizing recension, so the hypothetical NT manuscript I suggested could also be the own product of a Judaizing heterodox sect (e.g. Ebionites), so we wouldn't really know anything, it's all just speculation, but let's not doubt it, the WTS would immediately start celebrating triumphantly…)

  You assert that because there is no evidence of nomina sacra in first-century Septuagint manuscripts, we should conclude that the NT writers did not use it either. However, absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence. The earliest extant manuscripts containing nomina sacra date from the 2nd century, but we do not possess original NT autographs, only later copies. The fact that nomina sacra are found in very early Christian manuscripts suggests that the practice could have been in use earlier, even potentially during the time of the original authors. Since these earliest manuscripts already exhibit the practice, it is possible, though not provable, that the NT writers or their immediate followers introduced or at least approved of this scribal convention.

  While you argue that the use of nomina sacra could have been anathema to the Jewish authors of the NT, it is important to remember that early Christians, though Jewish by background, were not merely continuing Jewish scribal traditions. The early Christian community made numerous innovations in response to their belief in Jesus as the Messiah and their understanding of his divine nature. These innovations included changes in the way they interpreted and applied Scripture. For example, while many Jews continued to write the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) in special characters or avoided pronouncing it altogether, early Christians began to refer to Jesus using divine titles like "Lord" (Kyrios), which had been reserved for God in the Septuagint. This shift in usage reflects the theological significance early Christians attributed to Jesus. Therefore, it's plausible that early Christians might have introduced the nomina sacra as a way of reverently distinguishing divine names, particularly in relation to Jesus, even if this practice had not been common in Jewish scribal traditions.

  Larry Hurtado’s argument that nomina sacra likely began with the name "Jesus" and expanded to other sacred terms is compelling because it reflects the centrality of Jesus in early Christian worship. Even if the exact origin of nomina sacra is debated, the point remains that by the time we have extant Christian manuscripts, this practice was already well established. Whether the practice began with "Jesus" or the Tetragrammaton is secondary to the fact that it was used deliberately to signify reverence and divinity. Hurtado and other scholars suggest that the use of nomina sacra was not simply a mechanical device but a theological one, marking the distinction between the sacred and the mundane.

  You raise an important question about the capitalization of "God" in John 1:1, particularly whether this blurs the distinction between "the Word was with God" (theon) and "the Word was God" (theos). Here's why I believe capitalizing "God" in both instances is justified. The distinction between ton theon and theos in John 1:1 does not reflect a difference in nature or status between the two uses of "God," but rather a grammatical distinction. In the phrase "the Word was with [the] God" (pros ton theon), the article (ton) specifies that "God" refers to the person of the Father. In the second phrase, "and the Word was God" (kai theos ēn ho logos), the absence of the article emphasizes the divine nature of the Word rather than identifying the Word as a separate "God." The use of the qualitative predicate theos underscores the essential divinity of the Word without implying polytheism or the existence of multiple gods. Early Christian interpreters understood this passage to mean that the Word (Jesus) shares fully in the divine nature of the Father, even while being a distinct person within the Godhead.

  You argue that capitalizing "God" in both instances might confuse English readers by implying that both uses of "God" refer to the same person. However, this is a misunderstanding of how capitalization functions in translation. Modern translations capitalize "God" in John 1:1c ("and the Word was God") to convey the full deity of the Word, in keeping with the early Christian belief that Jesus is fully divine. Capitalizing "God" here does not blur the distinction between the Word and the Father but rather affirms the shared divine essence of both. The qualitative nature of the second use of theos is preserved by recognizing that the Word possesses the same divine nature as the Father while remaining a distinct person.

  The practice of capitalizing "God" in English translations of John 1:1 reflects the theological conclusions reached by the early Church in its articulation of the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity emerged not as an imposition on the text but as a faithful interpretation of passages like John 1:1, where the relationship between the Father and the Son is described in terms of both distinction (the Word was with God) and unity (the Word was God). Early Christian scribes, as evidenced by their use of nomina sacra, understood this dynamic and reverently applied the same sacred titles to both the Father and the Son.

  In summary, while you raise valid points about the potential origins of nomina sacra and the implications of capitalizing "God" in John 1:1, your conclusions are not the only plausible ones. The use of nomina sacra likely reflects a theological innovation by early Christians to express their belief in the full divinity of Christ. This practice underscores the reverence they had for both the Father and the Son as sharing in the same divine essence. Capitalizing "God" in English translations of John 1:1 preserves the theological integrity of the text, affirming the divinity of the Word while maintaining the distinction between the persons of the Trinity.
• 
  164

  How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

  but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

  new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  aqwsed12345

  @slimboyfat

  Thank you for your response, and I appreciate your effort to clarify your approach to citing scholars and the role they play in shaping your arguments. While it's good that you're being careful to defer to experts in areas outside your expertise, I think there are still significant issues with the methodology you're presenting. Let me explain more thoroughly why, despite your best intentions, quoting certain scholars doesn't necessarily bolster the case you're trying to make, especially concerning doctrinal matters like the Trinity.

  One of the most important points to grasp about theology is that it's not just a matter of collecting a few proof texts or pulling out isolated academic quotes. Doctrinal theology develops over time and involves a holistic synthesis of Scripture, Tradition, and theological reflection, all rooted in the lived faith of the Church. So when you refer to the scholarly consensus on the Trinity "not being in the Bible," you're conflating a modern, often skeptical, historical-critical approach with a theological one.

  For example, when scholars like Bart Ehrman claim that the Trinity isn't explicitly "taught" in the Bible, they're typically referring to the fact that the Bible doesn't use the term "Trinity" or systematically lay out the doctrine as the Nicene Creed does. However, this doesn't mean that the concept of the Trinity isn't there in seed form or that it doesn't emerge naturally from the text. Rather, the early Church Fathers recognized the deep and complex unity of God as revealed in Scripture, culminating in the development of the doctrine to clarify the faith against heresies like Arianism and modalism. It wasn't "invented" at Nicaea but formally articulated to defend what had been consistently taught from the time of the apostles.

  You argue that quoting certain scholars who support JW positions shows that their views are at least "legitimate." The issue here is that scholars can have a wide range of views, some of which are influenced by modernist or revisionist tendencies that aim to reinterpret early Christianity through the lens of later skepticism. The fact that some scholars reject the Trinity or propose that early Christians saw Jesus as a mere angel doesn't make those views correct or legitimate within the framework of historic Christianity.

  For instance, Bart Ehrman is not a neutral observer; he's a self-declared agnostic who has made a career out of challenging traditional Christian doctrines. The fact that some scholars agree with his conclusions does not mean those conclusions are supported by the entire scholarly community, much less by the broader Christian tradition. Moreover, there are many competent scholars—both evangelical and Catholic—who would argue strongly for the opposite positions, affirming the Trinity and the deity of Christ as consistent with both the New Testament and the beliefs of the earliest Christians.

  Quoting a few liberal or skeptical scholars isn't proof of legitimacy; it's simply a reflection of a particular interpretative school. It also risks falling into the trap of authority-based arguments rather than engaging with the broader theological and historical context that shaped Christian doctrine.

  A key distinction between our approaches lies in how we view tradition and the authority of the Church. As a Catholic, I see the development of doctrine as guided by the Holy Spirit, with the Magisterium (teaching authority of the Church) safeguarding the truth passed down from the apostles. The creeds, councils, and the Church Fathers aren't just additional sources but are essential in interpreting and preserving the faith once delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3). When I refer to the writings of early Christians like Tertullian, Athanasius, or Augustine, I do so because they represent the faith lived out and defended in the face of heresies that threatened to distort it.

  You seem to dismiss the role of tradition and the development of doctrine as unnecessary or even suspect. However, it's important to realize that the earliest Christians weren't isolated Bible interpreters like modern scholars but part of a community of faith with teachings passed down through generations. Doctrines like the Trinity emerged from the need to clarify these teachings in the face of challenges and to protect the integrity of the Christian faith.

  While it's true that the Bible doesn't present the doctrine of the Trinity in a systematic theological treatise, the elements of the doctrine are clearly present throughout the New Testament. The Great Commission in Matthew 28:19 speaks of baptizing "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." The language here isn't merely symbolic or titular; it places all three persons on equal footing in a way that doesn't make sense if Jesus and the Spirit were created beings or merely lesser entities. Similarly, the high Christology of John's Gospel, especially John 1:1 and John 20:28 (where Thomas calls Jesus "my Lord and my God"), provides clear evidence that the early Christians saw Jesus as God, and not as Michael the Archangel.

  Moreover, the letters of Paul frequently emphasize the relationship between Father, Son, and Spirit in a way that points toward their unity in essence yet distinction in personhood. In passages like 2 Corinthians 13:14 and Ephesians 4:4-6, we see clear Trinitarian formulas being used in worship and benediction.

  While I respect your caution in deferring to scholars, I would encourage you to take a broader view of the theological landscape. The fact that some modern scholars reject traditional doctrines like the Trinity does not mean those doctrines lack a solid foundation in Scripture or early Christian belief. Theologians throughout history—both ancient and modern—have affirmed the Trinity based on a deep and careful reading of both the Bible and the lived experience of the Church. To dismiss this rich tradition in favor of a few skeptical voices is to misunderstand the nature of Christian theology and its development over time.

  So, while quoting scholars can be helpful, it’s important to recognize that not all scholarly opinions are equally valid when it comes to interpreting the central doctrines of the Christian faith. The testimony of the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit and shaped by centuries of faithful witness, remains the most reliable foundation for understanding these profound mysteries.

  @Earnest

  Thank you for your detailed response. You’ve raised some valid points about the development of nomina sacra, and I appreciate the opportunity to engage further with the topic. However, I believe there are some critical aspects that need to be clarified and addressed to fully assess the implications of the practice of nomina sacra in early Christian manuscripts.

  You mentioned that my interpretation of nomina sacra is subjective, and to a degree, I understand this concern. However, while it’s true that we do not have a contemporaneous record explicitly stating the reasons for the development of nomina sacra, the context in which they were used can help inform our understanding. Early Christian scribal practices were often theological in nature. Many scholars, including Larry Hurtado, have extensively argued that the use of nomina sacra reflects the early Christian desire to show reverence for the sacred names of God and Christ. This reverence was not merely a later innovation but rooted in early Christian worship and Christology.

  Although we do not have an explicit explanation from the original scribes themselves, the patterns observed in the manuscripts give us clues about the theological motivations behind the use of nomina sacra. The fact that nomina sacra were consistently applied to names like Theos (God), Kyrios (Lord), and Iēsous (Jesus) shows that these titles were regarded as uniquely sacred, set apart from mundane uses of the same terms.

  It is not entirely accurate to assert with certainty that the original writers of the gospels and apostolic epistles did not use nomina sacra (sacred names). The claim that nomina sacra developed later by copyists is just a hypothesis but not an established fact. We do not possess the original autographs of the New Testament writings, only copies made by later scribes. Therefore, we cannot definitively say whether the original writers used nomina sacra or not. The earliest manuscripts we have, some dating to the 2nd century, already contain nomina sacra.

  The practice of using nomina sacra (abbreviations for divine names, such as Jesus (ΙΗΣ), God (ΘΣ), Christ (ΧΣ), etc.) is attested in some of the earliest Christian manuscripts. For instance, papyri such as P52 (circa AD 125-150) and P66 (late 2nd century) already exhibit this convention. This suggests that the use of nomina sacra was an established practice very early in Christian manuscript tradition—at least within the first or second generation of copying.

  While some scholars propose that the practice of using nomina sacra was introduced by later copyists to show reverence or to economize on space in manuscripts, this remains a theory. The practice may have originated even in the very first copies of the New Testament texts, and perhaps even during the lifetimes of the apostles or their immediate followers.

  The use of abbreviations for sacred words was not unique to Christianity. In Jewish scribal traditions, the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) was often written in special ways, and this likely influenced early Christians to adopt similar conventions when referring to sacred names.

  In conclusion, it cannot be said with certainty that the original authors of the New Testament did not use nomina sacra. The practice is seen very early in the manuscript tradition, and without the original autographs, it remains speculative to claim they were introduced only later by copyists. We must remain cautious in making definitive statements about what the earliest Christian authors did or did not do. Early scribal traditions were deeply theological and reflected the beliefs of early Christian communities. The development of nomina sacra was not merely a mechanical or aesthetic decision but was informed by understanding of Christ’s deity and the need to venerate sacred names.

  Moreover, while it’s true that later manuscripts generalized the use of nomina sacra, the earliest manuscripts—such as Papyrus 46 and Codex Sinaiticus—were more selective and consistent in their application, particularly regarding names associated with the divine. This selectivity points to a deliberate choice to emphasize the divine nature of Jesus Christ, in line with emerging Christological doctrines. The early Christian community was wrestling with the identity of Jesus, and the consistent application of nomina sacra to both the Father and the Son strongly suggests that they viewed Jesus as sharing in the same divine nature.

  You raised an interesting point about non-divine words like mother, Israel, or Jerusalem also being treated as nomina sacra. This, however, does not undermine the argument for the theological significance of the practice. The inclusion of these words as nomina sacra can be understood in a different light. For example, "mother" (meter) was often associated with Mary, the mother of Jesus, in Christian tradition. Therefore, when referring to Mary, it is possible that scribes treated the word with reverence due to her unique role in the Incarnation. Similarly, "Jerusalem" and "Israel" carried deep theological significance in the biblical narrative as the city of God and the chosen people of God, respectively.

  In other words, not every single use of nomina sacra necessarily implied deity, but it did reflect a sense of sacredness or importance within the Christian theological framework. However, this does not detract from the fact that when applied to terms like Theos (God) or Kyrios (Lord) in reference to Jesus, the scribes were clearly making a theological statement about His divine status.

  You correctly pointed out that in some manuscripts like P66 and P75, contractions of words like Kyrios (Lord) and Pater (Father) were applied even to mundane references, such as "the father of lies" (referring to the devil). This observation is valid, but it reflects a later stage of scribal practice, where the use of nomina sacra became more standardized and less selective.

  However, in the earliest Christian manuscripts, there is a clear distinction between the use of nomina sacra for divine or sacred names and the full spelling of words when used in a mundane context. The fact that early scribes were more discerning in their application of nomina sacra indicates that the practice originally served a theological function, emphasizing the deity of Christ and the Father. Later generalization of the practice does not negate its original theological significance.

  Just to clarify, my original point regarding John 1:1 was that those earliest manuscripts that did distinguish between the positive and affirmative use of terms "God" and "Lord" for the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and their use among, for example, pagan deities, they all treated as nomina sacra those places where the expressions "Lord" and "God" are applied to the Son. Since the distinction between lowercase and uppercase letters did not exist at that time, what else could we take as the closest practice to this, other than the nomina sacra? And if the earliest manuscripts that carefully made the distinction referred to the Son as "God" as a nomen sacrum, why wouldn't we capitalize it?

  When the Son is called "God" (Theos), it is marked with the same reverence and sacredness as when it is applied to the Father. This practice underscores that the early Christians did not see a clear separation in terms of reverence when referring to the deity of the Father or the Son. Hence, early Christians using this scribal practice recognized the Son as fully divine, worthy of the title "God" (Theos). The shift to lowercase and uppercase letters in modern languages, especially English, is an attempt to mirror the reverence that was originally conveyed by nomina sacra. When we capitalize "God" for the Son in translations like John 1:1 ("and the Word was God"), we are continuing the tradition that reflects the sacredness applied in those early manuscripts. This capitalization signals the reader that the term is being used in a divine, absolute sense, rather than in a generic or lesser sense. The choice to capitalize "God" when referring to the Son reflects not only fidelity to early Christian scribal practices but also the theological conviction rooted in the texts. The identification of Jesus as Theos in John 1:1 and elsewhere is understood by Trinitarian Christians as a clear affirmation of His fully divine nature. Thus, the capitalization reinforces that belief in modern translations.
  

  You mentioned that later generations of Christians who accepted the Trinitarian doctrine may have understood the use of nomina sacra as signifying shared deity, but you also suggest that the earliest scribes may not have intended this. However, it is important to recognize that the development of Christian doctrine did not happen in a vacuum. The early Christian community was deeply engaged in theological reflection on the identity of Jesus from the very beginning. The use of nomina sacra for both the Father and the Son reflects the early Christians' understanding of Jesus as divine, even much before the formal articulation of the Trinity at Nicaea in 325 AD.

  As early as the second century, Christian writers like Justin Martyr and Ignatius of Antioch were already affirming the deity of Christ in their writings. The use of nomina sacra is consistent with this early high Christology, which recognized Jesus as more than just a created being. The theological trajectory that led to the formal doctrine of the Trinity was already present in the early Christian understanding of Jesus as Kyrios (Lord) and Theos (God).

  In conclusion, while it is true that we do not have a contemporaneous explanation for the development of nomina sacra, the evidence from early Christian manuscripts suggests that the practice was deeply theological in nature. The consistent use of nomina sacra for both Christ and the Father reflects the early Christian belief in Christ's deity, a belief that developed organically within the Christian community before being formalized in later creeds.

  The presence of nomina sacra for non-divine terms like "mother" or "Jerusalem" does not undermine this argument but rather reflects the broader reverence for sacred concepts in Christian theology. Ultimately, the use of nomina sacra in early manuscripts points to a theological understanding of Jesus as sharing in the divine essence with the Father, which laid the groundwork for the later doctrine of the Trinity.
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  How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

  but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

  new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  aqwsed12345

  I will explain more specifically what my problem is with your methodology: I am Catholic, and I firmly believe that we are not obliged to prove our doctrines, as Tertullian said in “On the Prescription of Heretics”, the burden of proof is on the heretics, and the defendant position belongs to the Church. If you've ever seen a Catholic book on Dogmatics, you'd see that it always looks like it outlines the article of faith first, then explains it. This is followed by an explanation of its scriptural and then holy tradition foundations. So when I engage in a "biblical ping-pong" with you, I am already deviating from the standard methodology of my church, since I do not believe in "sola Scriptura", let alone "nuda Scriptura".

  Sometimes it's fun, sometimes it's frustrating, but if I'm going to play biblical ping-pong," I aim to keep it that way. However, a common method of JW apologists is to divert the debate into some kind of quotation and authority contest. It is certain that you can find some "yummy" quote for everything, and the opposite as well, but this deviates the discussion from its normal course. I find it especially ironic that, according to the JW view, the mainstream world is in the hands of Satan, but at the same time they are happy to rely on liberal theologians, and skeptical, often atheistic authors, as it is useful to have some authors (cf. “unholy alliance”) who also claim that (mainstream) Christianity has misunderstood the person and message of Christ.

  And then you don't even argue with me anymore, you just threw the names of Bart D. Ehrman, Peter Schäfer, Adela Yarbro Collins, Hans Küng, Dan Brown whatever, at me, and then I would have to argue with THEM instead of you. This is unfair especially because I set aside (or at least put in the background) my own standard methodology for the sake of arguing with you, and I do not argue like Augustine and Thomas Aquinas said this ("ipse dixit"), it is already so.
• 
  164

  How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

  but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

  new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  aqwsed12345

  You didn’t say if that was you in the bookshop.

  Nope...

  How many people are there wandering around looking for Garrigou-Lagrange in Latin?

  Some of them are, but as I mentioned, most of his writings are also available in English.