Posts by aqwsed12345

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164
How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.
aqwsed12345

@Rattigan350
You asked, "What is the agenda of the WTS (Watchtower Society)? And how can it mistranslate when the result is correct?" The agenda of the WTS, reflected in their translation choices, particularly in the NWT, is to support Jehovah’s Witnesses' doctrine that denies the deity of Christ and the Trinity. The NWT is often critiqued for mistranslating key texts to fit their theology. For example, in John 1:1, most translations read, "the Word was God" (θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος), but the NWT reads, "the Word was a god," suggesting that Jesus is a lesser deity, which is inconsistent with the rest of Scripture and the grammatical structure of the original Greek.
The definitive issue is that the NWT alters key verses to diminish Christ's deity, which fits the WTS's theological stance. Other examples include Colossians 1:15-17, where the word "other" is added multiple times, changing the meaning to suggest that Christ was created, rather than pre-existing and being the Creator.
You cited Eusebius' quote from his earlier writings, where he records Jesus' commission as "Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name." However, Eusebius' later writings reflect the full Trinitarian formula as seen in Matthew 28:19: "baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."
The textual evidence supporting Matthew 28:19 is substantial. The earliest manuscripts, including the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, contain the full Trinitarian formula. Furthermore, church fathers such as Tertullian, Hippolytus, and Origen all reference the Trinitarian formula, which shows it was part of the accepted text long before any alleged alterations.
Regarding your point about Acts 2:38, where Peter says to baptize "in the name of Jesus Christ," this does not contradict Matthew 28:19. The phrase "in the name of Jesus" is shorthand for the authority and commission of Jesus, which includes the Trinitarian formula. The early church understood that baptizing in Jesus' name meant invoking the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as Jesus Himself commanded.
The baptism "in the name of Jesus" does not express the form of the sacrament but its nature: it distinguishes it from John's baptism and is meant to convey that it is done by the authority and commission of Christ, and it obligates the baptized person to Christ. Indeed, if during the time of the apostles they had baptized only by invoking the name of Jesus, Saint Paul could not have responded to the Ephesians, who had never heard of the Holy Spirit, with: "Into what then were you baptized?" (Acts 19:2–3). Early Christian tradition knows of no other form than the mention of the name of the Holy Trinity.
You argued that Jesus never said "I AM" because He did not speak English. This, however, misses the point. In John 8:58, Jesus uses the Greek phrase "ἐγώ εἰμι" (egō eimi), which translates to "I am." The language used is not the issue; rather, it is the meaning of the phrase.
When Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I am," He is directly echoing Exodus 3:14, where God reveals Himself to Moses as "I AM WHO I AM" (Hebrew: אהיה אשר אהיה, Greek Septuagint: ἐγώ εἰμι). The reaction of the Jewish leaders—immediately trying to stone Him—shows that they understood this as a claim to deity. They recognized that Jesus was identifying Himself with YHWH, the eternal, self-existent God.
You claim that Psalm 110:1 shows that Jesus is not Jehovah (YHWH), but this misses the full context of how the New Testament writers interpret this passage.
Jesus quotes Psalm 110:1 in Matthew 22:41-46, asking the Pharisees, "If David calls him Lord, how can he be his son?" This challenges their understanding of the Messiah. The point Jesus is making is that the Messiah (Jesus) is greater than David and shares in divine authority with YHWH. The New Testament repeatedly shows Jesus exalted to the right hand of the Father, not as a separate or lesser being, but sharing in the divine nature and rule (Hebrews 1:3, Philippians 2:9-11).
You dismiss Thomas' confession, "My Lord and my God," as the statement of a doubter. However, this moment in John 20:28 is one of the clearest affirmations of Jesus’ deity in the New Testament. Thomas, after doubting, is convinced by the resurrected Jesus and exclaims to him, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου). This is a direct declaration of Jesus' deity, and importantly, Jesus does not correct him. Instead, Jesus affirms Thomas' belief.
You assert that being the "Son of God" means Jesus is not God. However, in Jewish culture, the term "Son of" often implies equality or shared nature. For example, calling someone the "Son of Man" (Daniel 7:13-14) implies humanity and dominion. Likewise, the title "Son of God" in Jesus' case implies that He shares the divine nature with the Father.
In John 5:18, the Jews sought to kill Jesus because He was "making Himself equal with God" by calling God His Father. Thus, in the context of Jesus' unique sonship, being the Son of God means being equal with God, not inferior. By the way, I will tell you something that may surprise you: when Trinitarians say the Son is God, they do not mean that he is the same person as whose Son He is.
You claim that many translators have "agendas" and that the Trinity is not supported by Scripture. However, the overwhelming majority of biblical scholars and translators, across denominations, agree that John 1:1 and other key texts affirm the deity of Christ. The textual evidence is robust, and the doctrine of the Trinity is not based on a few select verses, but on the entire testimony of Scripture.
You dismiss the Trinity because it doesn't fit your "equation for salvation." However, the Trinity is foundational to the Christian understanding of salvation. Jesus, as fully God and fully man, is the only one who could mediate between God and man, offering a sacrifice that is sufficient to redeem humanity (Hebrews 9:14-15). The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit work together in the plan of salvation, with the Father sending the Son, the Son offering Himself as a sacrifice, and the Spirit applying the work of salvation to believers.
Your argument that Hebrews 8:5 ("a shadow of what is in heaven") somehow outweighs Jesus' direct claims to deity is a misunderstanding. The temple rituals were a shadow pointing to the reality of Christ's heavenly ministry, but Christ Himself is the substance, not just a shadow.
In conclusion, the Trinity is not a later invention or a misunderstanding. It is the biblical revelation of the nature of God, grounded in the teachings of Jesus and the apostles, affirmed by the early church, and defended throughout Christian history.
164
How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.
aqwsed12345
@scholar
You acknowledge that qualitativeness signifies the nature or essence of the subject in Koine Greek. But where they misunderstand is the suggestion that this quality does not reflect "full divinity." The qualitative reading of theos in John 1:1c does not imply "godlike" in a diminished or lesser sense but points to the full nature of divinity. Many respected scholars, like Wallace and Harner, argue that the qualitative sense implies that the Word shares in the very essence of deity—fully divine, not just some “divine quality” in a vague or partial sense.
The issue is that the NWT’s rendering “a god” introduces ambiguity. The indefinite “a god” implies subordinationism, suggesting that Jesus is a separate deity, which contradicts the strict monotheism seen throughout both the Old and New Testaments (e.g., Deuteronomy 6:4). The qualitative reading, however, supports the understanding that Jesus shares in the same divine nature, maintaining monotheism while affirming the Word’s full divinity.
The NWT’s rendering of John 1:1 as "the Word was a god" introduces theological confusion by suggesting that there is more than one "god" or that the Word is a lesser, subordinate deity. This interpretation is inconsistent with the monotheism that pervades the entire Bible, including the Old and New Testaments. The Bible explicitly teaches that there is only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 45:5; 1 Timothy 2:5). Introducing "a god" into this context breaks with this clear monotheistic teaching, implying either polytheism or henotheism, which is foreign to biblical revelation.
Furthermore, the qualitative force of theos in John 1:1c, as highlighted by scholars like Wallace, emphasizes that the Word shares fully in the divine nature without implying a lesser or secondary god. Wallace, along with other respected Greek scholars, argues that the qualitative nature of theos in John 1:1 indicates that the Word is fully and truly God. To translate this phrase as "a god" misrepresents the original Greek and distorts the theological message that John intended to communicate.
The absence of the definite article in front of theos in John 1:1c (theos ēn ho logos) is not an indication of indefiniteness but rather a grammatical structure emphasizing the qualitative aspect of theos. In Greek, an anarthrous noun (a noun without an article) can often denote the nature or essence of something, as is the case here. The Word, being theos, is fully divine—sharing the same nature as God the Father.
Wallace and other scholars rightly point out that John 1:1b ("the Word was with [the] God") shows a distinction in person between the Father and the Word, while John 1:1c emphasizes the Word’s participation in the divine nature. The absence of the article before theos does not suggest that the Word is "a god" among many or a lesser divine being, but rather that the Word possesses all the attributes of deity. The translation "the Word was God" is the most accurate rendering in this case, affirming the full divinity of the Word without implying polytheism or subordinationism.
NWT’s rendering ‘a god’ is consistent with other translations and affirms Biblical monotheism. The traditional rendering 'the Word was God' contradicts 'the Word was with God.'
The NWT's rendering is not consistent with the majority of credible scholarly translations. No major scholarly Bible translation (RSV, ESV, NIV, NASB, etc.) renders John 1:1c as “a god.” This is because such a translation implies polytheism or henotheism, both of which contradict the monotheistic foundations of Christianity. The traditional rendering, “the Word was God,” does not contradict the phrase “the Word was with [the] God.” Rather, it affirms that the Word, though distinct in person, shares in the same divine nature as the Father. This reflects the Trinitarian understanding that there is one divine essence shared by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, without confusing their distinct persons.
The argument that "a god" would imply subordination is well-illustrated by scholars such as Bruce Metzger and Daniel Wallace. They both argue that John 1:1 highlights the unique relationship between the Father and the Son in terms of equality in essence, not in a hierarchy of deities.
Trinitarianism is rooted in Neo-Platonism and is not found in the OT or NT.
Your assertion that the Trinity is a "pagan" invention or a product of Neo-Platonism misunderstands the historical development of Christian theology. This argument is historically inaccurate. While it’s true that early Church Fathers used some philosophical language (like homoousios) to describe theological truths, this does not mean that the Trinity is rooted in pagan philosophy. The development of the Trinity doctrine was a response to various heresies (e.g., Arianism) and is based on careful exegesis of biblical texts that demonstrate Christ’s deity (John 1:1, Colossians 2:9, Philippians 2:6-11). Scholars widely recognize that the biblical texts laid the groundwork for Trinitarian theology, which became more clearly articulated over time, especially at the Council of Nicea.
Moreover, scholars, including Larry Hurtado, have shown that early Christians worshipped Jesus as divine from the very earliest stages of the faith. This worship, centered on Christ’s deity, directly contradicts the idea that Jesus was merely a created, subordinate being.
The doctrine of the Trinity was not "invented" in the later centuries but developed as the early Church reflected on the biblical data and sought to articulate the mystery of God’s nature as revealed in Scripture. The Trinitarian formula—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—is already present in texts like Matthew 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:14, and John 1:1.
While the early Church Fathers used philosophical language to explain theological truths (such as homoousios at the Council of Nicaea), this does not mean that the doctrine of the Trinity was derived from Greek philosophy. Rather, they used the tools available to them to defend the faith against heresies, particularly Arianism, which denied the full divinity of the Son. The Nicene Creed was a response to these heresies, affirming the scriptural teaching that the Son is "of the same essence" (homoousios) as the Father, fully God and eternally begotten, not made.
The accusation that the Trinity is a pagan concept, popularized by Alexander Hislop’s The Two Babylons, has been thoroughly debunked by scholars across various theological and historical disciplines. Hislop’s methodology was flawed, relying on superficial comparisons and unsupported historical claims. The Trinity is rooted in Scripture and reflects the Christian understanding of God’s nature as revealed in both the Old and New Testaments.
Contrary to the claim that the Trinity is "not found" in the Bible, the doctrine is rooted in biblical texts that reveal the deity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. For example:
- John 1:1 affirms the full divinity of the Word (the Son).
- Philippians 2:6-11 shows that Jesus, though in the form of God, did not grasp equality with God but humbled himself, which implies that he was already divine.
- Colossians 2:9 says that "in Christ, all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form," emphasizing that Jesus is fully God.
Moreover, Matthew 28:19 provides the Trinitarian formula for baptism ("in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit"), showing the equal standing of these three persons in the Godhead.
The claim that Jesus is "subordinate" to the Father, based on passages like John 5:30 or 1 Corinthians 11:3, misunderstands the distinction between functional subordination and ontological equality. While Jesus, in his role as the incarnate Son, submitted to the Father’s will during his earthly ministry, this does not imply that he is ontologically inferior to the Father. The doctrine of the Trinity teaches that the Son and the Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal with the Father, sharing the same divine nature, even though they may have different roles in the economy of salvation.
The NWT preserves both the indefiniteness and qualitativeness of ‘theos.’
The NWT fails to convey the intended meaning of John 1:1c. The indefinite article, "a god," implies polytheism or henotheism—both of which are foreign to Christian monotheism. The traditional qualitative interpretation does not create ambiguity but stresses that the Word possesses the very nature of God. Even Jason BeDuhn, while sympathetic to the NWT in some respects, acknowledges that the Word was divine (not “a god”) better captures the original Greek intent and is open to Trinitarian interpretation.
Daniel Wallace and other scholars have shown that the qualitative force of theos in John 1:1c emphasizes the full divine nature of the Word, not that the Word is a lesser god.
In conclusion, the NWT’s translation of John 1:1c as “a god” introduces theological confusion and contradicts biblical monotheism by implying that Jesus is a lesser or subordinate deity. The qualitative reading of John 1:1c, affirmed by the majority of respected scholars, demonstrates that the Word shares fully in the divine nature of the Father, not as “a god” but as God in essence.
Some resources for you:
@Rattigan350
You argue that texts like 1 John 5:7, Matthew 28:19, Revelation 1:11, and 1 Timothy 3:16 have been altered to support the Trinity doctrine. It is easy to see that these are not deliberate falsifications in the KJV, but come from the Textus Receptus before the age of modern textual criticism, unlike the NWT, which deliberately mistransaltes to support the theological agende of the WTS. Let's examine this claim more closely.

· 1 John 5:7 (Comma Johanneum): It’s true that the longer version of this verse, which explicitly mentions the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit as being one, is a later addition. Most modern scholars agree on this. However, the Trinity does not rest on this verse alone. In fact, the Trinity is grounded in the broader teaching of Scripture, not on one debated verse. The absence of the explicit Comma Johanneum does not remove the Trinity, as the concept is built on many scriptural passages.

· Matthew 28:19: You claim that Matthew 28:19, where Jesus commands his disciples to baptize “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” is spurious. Yet, the textual evidence overwhelmingly supports this verse. It appears in all early manuscripts of Matthew, including Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, and has strong patristic support. Early Church Fathers like Eusebius of Caesarea quoted it extensively, and there is no evidence of its alteration. The triadic formula here is part of Jesus' Great Commission and clearly demonstrates the early Christian understanding of the Trinity, where the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are mentioned equally.

· Revelation 1:11: This verse in the KJV does include the phrase “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last,” which is absent in some earlier manuscripts. However, this does not change the overall message of the book of Revelation that presents Christ as divine (Rev 22:13, 22:16) and part of the Godhead, referred to as the "Alpha and Omega."

· 1 Timothy 3:16: The phrase “God was manifest in the flesh” appears in later manuscripts, and earlier versions have “He was manifest in the flesh.” But this phrase still refers to Jesus, and whether we read "God" or "He," the implication is that Jesus, being divine, took on human flesh. The deity of Christ is still strongly supported by many other scriptures, such as John 1:1 and Colossians 2:9.

You claim that the connection between John 8:58 (“Before Abraham was, I am”) and Exodus 3:14 (“I AM WHO I AM”) is made up, and that the apostles didn’t connect the two.

However, Jesus' use of "I AM" in John 8:58 is a clear echo of God's self-identification in Exodus 3:14. The Jewish leaders clearly understood Jesus' claim to deity here, as evidenced by their immediate reaction to stone Him for blasphemy (John 8:59). Jesus' "I AM" statement is an explicit claim to eternal existence and divine identity.

In Exodus 3:14, God reveals His name to Moses as “I AM” (YHWH), expressing His eternal and self-existent nature. When Jesus uses the same phrase, “I AM,” in John 8:58, He is directly identifying Himself with YHWH. The reaction of the Jewish leaders confirms that they understood His claim to be God, which is why they sought to stone Him. This connection is not "made up," but deeply rooted in both Jewish and Christian understanding.

You reference Psalm 110:1, where it says, "Jehovah said to my Lord, ‘Sit at my right hand.’” This verse is often used by non-Trinitarians to claim that Jesus is a lesser Lord, distinct from YHWH (Jehovah).

However, Psalm 110:1 is one of the most quoted Old Testament verses in the New Testament because it points to the Messiah's exaltation. When it says "Yahweh said to my Lord," it refers to a divine dialogue between God the Father (YHWH) and the Messiah (Jesus), acknowledging Jesus’ divine lordship and authority.

Jesus Himself uses this passage to assert His divine status in Matthew 22:44. The New Testament consistently presents Jesus as exalted to the Father’s right hand, sharing in divine authority (Hebrews 1:3; Philippians 2:9-11). Psalm 110 does not deny Jesus' deity; rather, it affirms His unique role as the Messianic King who shares in God’s rule.

You argue that the Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus not because of His claims to deity, but because He overturned tables in the temple and was a threat to their lifestyle.

While it is true that Jesus’ actions in the temple angered the religious leaders, the Gospel accounts clearly state that they sought to kill Him for blasphemy because He claimed to be equal with God. In John 10:30-33, Jesus says, “I and the Father are one.” The Jews understood this as a claim to deity, as they responded, “You, a mere man, claim to be God.” This passage clearly shows that the Jewish leaders saw Jesus' claims as blasphemous because they believed He was equating Himself with God.

You dismiss Thomas’ declaration, “My Lord and my God” in John 20:28, arguing that because Thomas was a doubter, his statement holds less weight. This is a misunderstanding of the significance of this event.

Thomas' confession is the climactic declaration of faith in the resurrected Jesus. Far from being insignificant, it is one of the strongest affirmations of Jesus' divine identity in the New Testament. Thomas, who had previously doubted, was convinced by Jesus’ resurrection and declared Him both “Lord” (kyrios) and “God” (theos). Jesus does not correct Thomas but accepts the worship, further affirming His divine status. This is not a statement to be dismissed but one that directly affirms the belief that Jesus is God.

You argue that Peter’s confession in Matthew 16:16, where he declares Jesus as “the Christ, the Son of the living God,” holds more weight than Thomas’ statement. However, Peter’s confession does not contradict the deity of Jesus.

In calling Jesus "the Christ, the Son of the living God," Peter acknowledges Jesus as the promised Messiah and Son of God. "Son of God" in Jewish thought often meant sharing in the divine nature of God. In fact, Jesus’ response to Peter—“Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 16:17)—shows that this recognition of Jesus’ divine identity came directly from God.

You dismiss John 1:1, stating that there are translations other than the NWT (New World Translation) that do not translate the passage as "the Word was God." However, the overwhelming majority of translations and biblical scholars agree that John 1:1 affirms the deity of Jesus.

The Greek phrase in John 1:1, "kai theos ēn ho logos", is most accurately translated as "the Word was God." The construction of the Greek text, particularly the use of the definite article with "ho theos" and the anarthrous (without an article) "theos" in the predicate position, shows that the Word (Jesus) shares the same divine essence as God.

In conclusion, your arguments against the Trinity, based on select interpretations and supposed spurious texts, fail to undermine the solid biblical foundation for the doctrine. The Trinity is not based on a few isolated verses or later textual additions, but on the full testimony of Scripture, which presents God as one in essence, yet three in persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The early Church did not "invent" this doctrine. It was a natural conclusion drawn from the teachings of Jesus and the apostles, as well as from the Hebrew Scriptures. Far from being a later "invention" or "borrowed" from pagan sources, the Trinity reflects the mystery of God's nature as revealed in both the Old and New Testaments.
18
NEW LIGHT ON THE 144,000 EXPLAINED
by raymond frantz in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
https://youtu.be/heulwyd00ku?si=9az0zrsquy67v74g.

the watchtower’s approach to "new light" is, frankly, a masterclass in manipulation.

when they introduce a new interpretation or change their teachings, it's presented as a revelation, showcasing just how guided and spiritually in-tune the governing body is.
aqwsed12345

The Watchtower's concept of "new light" allows them to alter previous teachings when they no longer fit current circumstances or interpretations. While they present these changes as progressive revelations, the way they shift blame onto members—claiming it was they who misunderstood—fits the classic definition of gaslighting. Members are led to believe that they misunderstood teachings they were, in fact, told to believe.
One such example is the teaching about the 144,000. The organization taught that the number of those anointed would decrease as the end drew near, emphasizing that the dwindling number of partakers was a sign of Armageddon’s approach. This narrative created urgency, motivating members to remain loyal. But as you pointed out, when the number of partakers began to rise instead of decrease, the Governing Body shifted the narrative, suggesting that the numbers were never the real focus. This abrupt change left many confused, as it appeared to invalidate what had been emphasized for years.
This shift is a clear demonstration of how "new light" is used to maintain control without admitting error. Instead of acknowledging the inconsistency in their teachings, the Governing Body reframes the situation to make it seem as though it’s the members’ misunderstanding, not their misteaching.
Scripturally, the Watchtower’s interpretation of the 144,000 as a literal, fixed number chosen over a century is debatable. Revelation 7 and 14 describe the 144,000 being sealed during the Great Tribulation, which is a future, brief period in human history. This challenges the Watchtower’s claim that this number has been gradually filled since the early 20th century, particularly with cut-off dates like 1935.
The emphasis on the 144,000 number shrinking was used as a marker for how close the end was. When that number started to rise again, with even younger individuals partaking of the emblems, the shift in narrative conveniently reframed the teaching to focus not on numbers but on the vitality of the Governing Body. This shows a pattern of changing interpretations whenever facts contradict long-held beliefs, with no accountability for the confusion it creates.
It’s also important to note that scripture doesn’t support the idea that "new light" should continuously replace old teachings, especially in ways that contradict earlier interpretations. Proverbs 30:5-6 warns against adding to God’s word, and 1 Corinthians 14:33 reminds us that God is not a God of confusion. The Watchtower’s continual doctrinal shifts under the guise of "new light" can be seen as creating confusion, contradicting the Bible’s message of clarity and consistency.
Encouraging members to "Google the ages of the new Governing Body members" appears to be an act of transparency but is really a tool of control. It shifts the focus away from the contradiction about the number of partakers and onto something else—thus, keeping members compliant by reframing the narrative.
This tactic keeps members in a position of dependency on the organization, as they are continually led to believe that the Governing Body’s decisions are divinely guided, even when those decisions contradict prior teachings.
Ultimately, the Watchtower’s approach is designed to avoid accountability. Whether through changing the significance of the number of partakers, appointing younger members, or altering doctrinal interpretations, the organization maintains control over its members by shifting the narrative whenever necessary. They craft a system where they can never be wrong, and any challenge is met with further explanation that blames the members for misunderstanding.
The emphasis on the 144,000 and other teachings has long been a way to maintain urgency and control within the organization. However, as reality has contradicted their previous expectations, the shift in narrative is simply another example of how the Governing Body uses "new light" to remain in power while avoiding the consequences of their past errors.
By understanding the full context of their doctrinal shifts and the underlying strategy, one can see that this is not about spiritual enlightenment but about controlling the narrative to maintain authority over members.
59
Proof of two destinies for believers in the Bible, heavenly and earthly
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
the jw idea that believers are destined either for heavenly life or for endless life on earth comes in for significant criticism by critics of various kinds.

even some groups, such as the christadelphians, who share belief in a future paradise earth, don’t share the view that some christians are destined for life in heaven.

yet there is surprisingly quite a lot of evidence in the bible for the existence of two distinct groups of believers.
aqwsed12345

Jehovah's Witnesses interpret Romans 6:7 and Romans 6:23 as supporting the view that physical death acquits individuals of their sins, and that judgment in the resurrection will be based on deeds performed after resurrection, not in their previous lives. However, a detailed and contextual analysis of these scriptures, along with related biblical passages, demonstrates that this interpretation is flawed. Romans 6:7 in the New World Translation (NWT) reads: "For the one who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin." Jehovah's Witnesses claim that this verse refers to physical death, implying that the death of a person absolves them from their sins. However, this interpretation is a misreading of the passage’s context.
Romans 6:1-11 clearly discusses spiritual death to sin through baptism, not physical death. Paul is addressing believers who have "died to sin" and been "baptized into Christ Jesus' death" (Romans 6:3). In this passage, "death" refers to the believer's participation in Christ’s death through baptism, symbolizing the end of their old sinful life. Thus, the "acquittal" from sin in Romans 6:7 applies to those who have undergone a spiritual transformation, not to every person at physical death.
Paul is teaching that believers, having been justified by faith and baptized into Christ, are freed from sin's control in this life. This freedom from sin’s domination is a present reality for believers, not a condition conferred upon physical death. Therefore, this verse cannot be applied universally to suggest that physical death acquits all people from sin.
Romans 6:23 declares, "For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord" (NWT). Jehovah's Witnesses interpret this to mean that the death penalty for sin is wiped clean when a person dies, and they have a clean slate when resurrected. However, this too ignores the immediate context and larger scriptural teachings about judgment.
Paul’s point in Romans 6:23 is that the outcome of living under sin’s mastery is spiritual and eternal death (separation from God), whereas the gift of God through Christ is eternal life. He is contrasting two destinies: one leading to eternal life for those who are united with Christ, and one leading to death for those who remain in sin. It does not imply that death removes the penalty for sin or erases one’s sinful record.
Hebrews 9:27 is a crucial text that directly refutes the idea that physical death clears a person’s slate of sin. The verse says, "And just as it is appointed for men to die once and after that comes judgment" (ESV). In the NWT, this is translated as, "And as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this a judgment." The NWT’s insertion of "for all time" distorts the meaning, implying an indefinite or ultimate death. However, the original Greek does not include this notion. The correct interpretation is that after physical death comes judgment, meaning that the sins committed in this life are not wiped away by death but are subject to judgment afterward.
Hebrews 9:27 shows that physical death is not a point of acquittal from sin but rather a prelude to judgment. It establishes that individuals are held accountable for their actions in this life, and they will face judgment accordingly.
2 Corinthians 5:10 further emphasizes that we are judged based on our actions in this life, not on deeds after the resurrection. Paul states: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil" (ESV). The phrase “in the body” (Greek: sōmati) refers to the deeds performed while we are alive in our present physical bodies, not in some future resurrected state.
This verse is explicit: judgment is based on our actions in the present life, not on a clean slate after death. Jehovah’s Witnesses’ view that resurrection provides a fresh start contradicts this passage, as it suggests post-resurrection deeds are the basis of judgment, while Paul asserts that our present lives are the focus.
Jehovah's Witnesses argue that the “books” mentioned in Revelation 20:12 are new sets of laws for the millennial reign that people must follow in order to be judged favorably. However, the text of Revelation 20:12 actually says: "And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done" (ESV).
The "books" contain the deeds of individuals, and it is these deeds that are the basis of judgment, not new laws or instructions for the future. The passage explicitly states that people are judged "according to what they had done"—their past actions, not future actions after resurrection. The “book of life” determines who receives eternal life, based on their life’s deeds. There is no indication that these books are instructional manuals for achieving perfection during the millennial reign.
Additionally, Jeremiah 31:31-34 speaks of the New Covenant, wherein God's law is written on the hearts of believers. Therefore, the idea of new legal instructions contradicts the New Covenant, which is based on inner transformation through the Spirit, not adherence to external laws.
In conclusion, Jehovah’s Witnesses’ interpretation of Romans 6:7 and 6:23 as teaching that physical death erases sin and that people are judged based on post-resurrection deeds is not supported by the broader biblical context. Romans 6:7 refers to spiritual death to sin through baptism, and Romans 6:23 contrasts the ultimate consequences of living in sin versus receiving eternal life through Christ. Hebrews 9:27, 2 Corinthians 5:10, and Revelation 20:12 all affirm that individuals are judged based on their deeds in this life, and physical death does not absolve sin or reset one’s moral standing.
59
Proof of two destinies for believers in the Bible, heavenly and earthly
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
the jw idea that believers are destined either for heavenly life or for endless life on earth comes in for significant criticism by critics of various kinds.

even some groups, such as the christadelphians, who share belief in a future paradise earth, don’t share the view that some christians are destined for life in heaven.

yet there is surprisingly quite a lot of evidence in the bible for the existence of two distinct groups of believers.
aqwsed12345
@Sea Breeze
Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response. I appreciate your engagement with these topics, and I'd like to address some of the points you raised in support of a literal 1,000-year reign of Christ, as well as your concerns about symbolic interpretation.
You mentioned that symbolic interpretation of Scripture has caused issues in the Church, opening the door for heresies. While it is true that poor or arbitrary symbolic interpretation can lead to confusion, it’s equally important to recognize that symbolism is an essential part of biblical exegesis, especially in genres like apocalyptic literature (such as Revelation). The Bible itself often uses symbolic language, and proper interpretation requires us to understand and discern when symbols are being used.
Consider Jesus' parables: these are clearly symbolic stories that communicate deeper spiritual truths. Similarly, the Book of Revelation is filled with symbols—beasts, dragons, stars falling from the sky, and the Lamb with seven horns and seven eyes. We don't take these images literally; instead, we seek to understand what they represent. Sound biblical interpretation involves letting the genre and context guide our understanding of when symbols are used.
In the case of Revelation 20, where the "1,000 years" is mentioned, we must consider the apocalyptic nature of the book. Numbers in apocalyptic literature are frequently symbolic:
- Seven represents completeness or perfection (as in the seven seals, trumpets, and bowls in Revelation).
- Twelve often represents the people of God (twelve tribes of Israel, twelve apostles).
- 1,000 is similarly understood as a number representing fullness or completeness.
It is not "entertaining" symbolic interpretation that leads us to view the "1,000 years" symbolically, but rather the consistent use of symbolic numbers throughout Scripture—especially in apocalyptic contexts.
You emphasize the importance of allowing Scripture to interpret itself and reference Revelation 19-20 as a clear sequence of literal events, concluding with a literal 1,000-year reign. However, it’s important to remember that apocalyptic visions do not always follow a strict linear chronology. Instead, Revelation often recapitulates—repeating and expanding on key themes from different angles.
For example, the defeat of Satan and evil is described multiple times in Revelation, not just at the end of the book. Revelation 12 shows Satan being cast out of heaven, while Revelation 20 describes Satan's binding. Both are part of the same overarching theme of Christ's victory over Satan, which began at the cross and continues until His return.
The "binding of Satan" in Revelation 20, from an amillennial perspective, represents Satan's limited ability to deceive the nations—particularly in the sense that Christ's victory on the cross and His resurrection broke Satan’s power, allowing the Gospel to spread throughout the world (see Colossians 2:15, John 12:31). While Satan is still active, he is restrained during the Church Age, preventing him from deceiving all the nations as he once did.
Your interpretation of the Parable of the Hidden Treasure in Matthew 13:44 as representing Christ purchasing the world with His blood is a valid interpretation. However, it's important to note that parables often have multiple layers of meaning and can be understood in more than one way.
For instance, many theologians interpret this parable as illustrating the value of the Kingdom of God—that it is worth giving up everything to obtain. Both interpretations (yours and the traditional one) can coexist without contradicting each other because parables often operate on multiple levels, revealing truths about Christ’s work and the Kingdom.
While your interpretation emphasizes Christ’s sacrificial work, the traditional interpretation focuses on the response of individuals to the Kingdom's value. Both highlight important aspects of God's plan.
You rightly highlight that the Kingdom of God exists in two forms:
1. The present, spiritual reign of Christ in the hearts of believers during the Church Age.
2. The future, fully manifested Kingdom at Christ’s return.
This is actually consistent with amillennialism, which teaches that the Kingdom of God is "already" and "not yet". Christ is already reigning spiritually, as seen in passages like Matthew 28:18 ("All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me") and Ephesians 1:20-23 (Christ is seated at the right hand of God, ruling over all things). But His reign will be fully manifested in the new heavens and new earth when He returns.
Amillennialists agree that there will be a future consummation of Christ’s Kingdom, but we differ from premillennialism in seeing the “1,000 years” as symbolic of the current Church Age rather than a future literal kingdom.
You mention that the literal Kingdom of Christ would be "good news" for those suffering during the Great Tribulation, while a spiritual Kingdom might not feel as immediate or comforting. While I understand your point, the hope of Christ’s return and the promise of eternal life are still incredibly good news for believers, even during suffering.
Throughout history, the Church has faced intense persecution and tribulation, and the hope of Christ’s spiritual reign and His future return has been a source of immense comfort and strength. The Gospel of the Kingdom includes both the present reality of Christ’s reign and the future hope of His final victory over evil. Both are vital aspects of the Good News.
You reference the 144,000 in Revelation 7 as literal Jewish believers who will spearhead the global proclamation of the Kingdom. While this is a common premillennial interpretation, many scholars interpret the 144,000 symbolically as representing the totality of God's people—both Jew and Gentile.
The twelve tribes listed in Revelation 7 are not arranged in the traditional order, and some tribes are omitted, which suggests that this is not a literal census of ethnic Jews. Instead, the 144,000 can be understood as symbolic of the complete people of God, redeemed from every nation (see Revelation 7:9, where a “great multitude” from all nations is included in the same vision).
In conclusion, while we may approach these topics differently, it’s important to recognize that both amillennialism and premillennialism seek to be faithful to Scripture. The symbolic interpretation of the "1,000 years" is not an arbitrary decision but is based on the genre of Revelation and the consistent use of symbolic numbers throughout Scripture.
The present spiritual reign of Christ is a central truth of the Gospel, and the future consummation of His Kingdom is the hope that all Christians look forward to. Amillennialism affirms both of these truths, recognizing that Christ is already reigning and that His Kingdom will be fully revealed when He returns.
I appreciate your thoughtful engagement, and I hope this response helps clarify the amillennial perspective further. I look forward to continuing our discussion.
God bless.
1
Even the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA got it wrong about JW's!
by BoogerMan in
1. watchtower
2. bible
w12 3/1 p. 4 “remain in my word” - "regarding jehovah’s witnesses, the new catholic encyclopedia states: “they regard the bible as their only source of belief and rule of conduct.”" .

time for a revised new catholic encyclopedia to include, "and their g.b.".

w12 4/1 p. 3 in search of answers - "is there one reliable source of information that can give authoritative answers to our questions about jesus?
aqwsed12345

New Catholic Encyclopedia
JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES
A sect, originally called Russellites, founded in the early 1870s by Charles Taze RUSSELL. In 1931 the title Jehovah’s Witnesses was proclaimed by Joseph F. RUTHERFORD, the second president of their legal corporation, the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, at their convention in Columbus, Ohio.
‘‘Judge’’ Rutherford introduced important changes in the Witnesses’ creed and transformed the congregational structure of the sect as it was under ‘‘Pastor’’ Russell into a rigid theocracy. The third leader, ‘‘Brother’’ Nathan H. Knorr, gradually replaced the offensive convert-making tactics of the Rutherford era by suave manners that have gained the Witnesses their current reputation as one of the best-behaved groups in the world. In legal battles that they have often carried to the highest courts of many free countries—and by appealing to freedom of speech and religion—they have acquired the right to exercise their proselytism without interference. They hold that other religions and worldly power are the devil’s instruments in keeping people away from the Truth.
Doctrine. According to Witness doctrine, there is but one God, and since 1931 they have insisted that He should be called Jehovah (Ex 3:15; Is 42:8). They condemn the Trinity as pagan idolatry and accordingly deny Christ’s divinity.
They consider Jesus as the greatest of Jehovah’s Witnesses, ‘‘a god’’ (so they translate John 1:1), inferior to no one but to Jehovah. Before existing as a human being, he was a spirit creature called the Logos, or Word, or Michael the Archangel. He died as a man and was raised as an immortal spirit Son. His Passion and death were the price he paid to regain for humanity the right to live eternally on earth. Indeed, the ‘‘great multitude’’ (Rev 7.9) of true Witnesses hope in an earthly Paradise; only 144,000 faithful (Rev 7:4; 14:1, 4) may enjoy heavenly glory with Christ. The wicked will undergo complete destruction.
Russell had announced that Armageddon—the ﬁnal clash between the forces of good and evil—could not happen later than 1914. From 1920 on Rutherford proclaimed that ‘‘millions now living will never die’’; he also expected the princes of old, Abraham, Isaac, and the others, to come back to life by 1925 as rulers over the New World. The Watch Tower Society of the mid-20th century no longer speciﬁed an exact date; but it repeated that ‘‘this generation will by no means pass away until all things occur’’ (Lk 21:32). Thus, Witnesses are deeply convinced that the end of the world will come within a very few years. This vivid belief appears to be the strongest driving force behind their indefatigable zeal.
Way of Life. The fundamental obligation of each member of the sect is to give witness to Jehovah by announcing His approaching Kingdom. He may do this by door-to-door calling, by meeting with others for home Bible studies, or by standing at street corners to display Watch Tower literature. Preaching the good news is the only means of salvation. Baptism—which Witnesses practice by immersion and usually in mass demonstrations—is in no way a Sacrament but only the exterior symbol of their dedication to the service of Jehovah God.
Jehovah’s Witnesses have attracted publicity by refusing blood transfusions even when it meant death to themselves or to their children. Except for birth control, which they leave to the couple’s own decision, their conjugal and sexual morality is quite rigid. They abide by taboos such as those against smoking and the celebration of any kind of feast.
They regard the Bible as their only source of belief and rule of conduct, but the Witnesses’ Bible aids are apparently used more abundantly than the Bible itself. They are allowed no other books than the Bible and the society’s own publications, which includes its own translation of the Bible with an impressive critical apparatus. The work is excellent except when scientiﬁc knowledge comes into conﬂict with the accepted doctrines of the movement. In their so-called New World Translation, the term Kyrios is rendered Jehovah instead of Lord everywhere in the New Testament (237 times) except at Philippians 2:11, where St. Paul refers the word to Christ. In their book Jesus’ words at the Last Supper become: ‘‘Take, eat. This means my body’’ (Mt 26:26). And they add but one word to the phrases of Col 1:16–17: ‘‘By means of him [Christ Jesus] all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth. . . . All other things have been created through him and for him. Also he is before all other things and by means of him all other things were made to exist.’’
The rate of growth of the movement reached a peak in the late 1930s, when membership increased almost 25 percent annually: from 1938 to 1942 it grew from less than 50,000 to more than 100,000. Since then, growth has slowed somewhat.
Bibliography: Sources. Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (rev. ed. Brooklyn 1961); Let God Be True (rev. ed. Brooklyn 1952), 18,900,000 copies in 54 languages; From Paradise Lost to Paradise Regained (Brooklyn 1958). Yearbook of Jehovah’s Witnesses (1926–). The Watchtower (1879–), pub. semi-monthly or monthly in 68 languages; Awake! (Brooklyn 1919–), pub. semi-monthly or monthly in 26 languages. Literature. H. H. STROUP, The Jehovah’s Witnesses (New York 1945). W. J. WHALEN, Armageddon Around the Corner: A Report on Jehovah’s Witnesses (New York 1962). G. HÉBERT, Les Témoins de Jéhovah: Essai critique d’histoire et de doctrine (Montréal 1960).
164
How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.
aqwsed12345

@peacefulpete
Your response presents a complex and interesting array of ideas, drawing on sources like Philo, the Ascension of Isaiah, and other Jewish and early Christian traditions to argue that the concept of the Logos or "second power" was prevalent in Second Temple Judaism and provided the foundation for later Christian ideas about Christ. Philo's understanding of the Logos as an intermediary is an important point of discussion, but it must be noted that Philo's Logos is fundamentally different from the Christian Logos. Philo saw the Logos as a mediating principle, not as a person who could incarnate. The Logos in Philo’s system is more of an abstract concept, an impersonal force through which God interacts with the world. It is not fully divine in the same sense that the Christian Logos is, nor does Philo's Logos ever take on human form.
In contrast, the Christian understanding of the Logos, particularly as articulated in John 1:1-14, is that the Logos is both fully divine and fully personal. The Logos "was with [the] God, and the Logos was God" (John 1:1). This Logos became incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ (John 1:14), which is a significant departure from Philo's abstract and impersonal Logos. For Christians, the Logos is not merely an emanation or intermediary but is fully God, co-equal and co-eternal with the Father, capable of becoming flesh and dwelling among humans.
You mention that various Jewish traditions, including the "second power" concept, influenced early Christian thought. While it is true that some Jews, particularly those influenced by Hellenistic thought, explored ideas about intermediaries or emanations, this should not be confused with the Christian doctrine of the Trinity or the divinity of Christ.
The "second power" traditions were often speculative and did not have the same theological weight as later Christian formulations. For example, the "Angel (Messenger) of the Lord" or "Wisdom" in Jewish texts is not equated with full divinity as Christians understand the relationship between the Father and the Son. The early Christian identification of Jesus with the Logos and the Son of God went beyond these Jewish ideas, asserting that Jesus is not just an intermediary but shares in the full divine nature of the one true God.
Additionally, the concept of a "second power" was eventually condemned within mainstream Judaism as heretical, particularly by figures like Rabbi Akiva in the 2nd century. This shows that while some Jewish sects may have speculated about intermediary beings, these ideas were not universally accepted and were later rejected as incompatible with strict monotheism.
Your argument suggests that early Christians viewed Jesus as an emanation of God, similar to figures like the Logos or Wisdom in Jewish thought. However, the Christian doctrine of the incarnation is fundamentally different from the idea of emanation.
In Neoplatonic or Gnostic thought, emanations are usually understood as lower, derived beings that come forth from a higher source. These emanations are often imperfect copies of the original and are not co-equal with the divine source. In contrast, the Christian understanding of the incarnation, as developed in the New Testament and by the early Church Fathers, is that Jesus, the Logos, is not a lower or derivative being but fully God. The Logos does not emanate from the Father in a way that diminishes its divinity; rather, the Logos is eternally begotten, meaning that the Son is of the same divine essence as the Father and not a subordinate or lesser being.
The doctrine of the Trinity further clarifies that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons but share the same divine essence. This is not an emanationist framework, where the Son or Spirit is seen as a lower or created being. Instead, it emphasizes the full equality and unity of the three persons in the one Godhead.
The Ascension of Isaiah is an interesting text that provides insight into early Christian apocalyptic thought, but it is important to recognize that this text is not representative of mainstream Christian theology. The Ascension of Isaiah contains elements of mysticism and symbolism that were not adopted into the canonical New Testament writings. While it reflects early Christian interest in heavenly journeys and the interaction between heavenly beings, its portrayal of Christ's descent through the heavens is highly symbolic and should not be taken as a literal account of Christian beliefs about Christ's nature.
The New Testament, particularly the Gospels and Pauline epistles, presents a much more grounded and historical understanding of Christ's life, death, and resurrection. The focus is on Jesus' historical actions and their salvific significance, rather than on mystical or esoteric journeys through the heavens. The Ascension of Isaiah represents a more fringe theological tradition that did not shape the core doctrines of Christianity as articulated by the early Church Fathers and the ecumenical councils.
Your argument suggests that worship of the Logos as God in early Christianity was influenced by Hellenistic Jewish thought and that this does not necessarily imply polytheism. While it is true that early Christians, including Justin Martyr, spoke of the Logos in terms that would have been familiar to Hellenistic Jews, it is important to emphasize that this worship was monotheistic.
The early Christians worshiped Jesus as the incarnate Logos, fully divine and fully one with the Father. This was not seen as polytheism because Christians affirmed that Jesus shares the same divine essence as the Father. The doctrine of the Trinity later formalized this understanding, ensuring that the Christian belief in one God was maintained even while affirming the distinct persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
In conclusion, while your argument raises some interesting points about the influence of Jewish and Hellenistic thought on early Christian theology, it ultimately misrepresents the core Christian understanding of the Logos and the Trinity. The Christian Logos is not an emanation or lower deity, but fully God, co-equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the Trinity, far from being a departure from monotheism, is a deepening of the understanding of God's nature as revealed in Jesus Christ. This belief is firmly rooted in the New Testament and the early Church's reflection on the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.
164
How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.
aqwsed12345

@scholar
Your assertion that there is "no misunderstanding" of the qualitative force of theos in John 1:1c needs further examination. Qualitativeness in Greek grammar, especially in John 1:1c, signifies that theos describes the nature or essence of the Word—expressing full divinity without introducing a secondary, lesser god. The NWT's rendering of "a god" misses this point, implying an inferior deity rather than the full divine nature John was emphasizing. The qualitative meaning here shows that the Word shares in the essence of deity, not as a second god, but in unity with the Father.
the NWT's translation "a god" is theologically problematic because it implies the existence of more than one divine being, which contradicts the strict monotheism found in both the Old and New Testaments (e.g., Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 43:10). The traditional translation, "the Word was God," does not introduce the idea of multiple gods but affirms that the Word shares in the same divine nature as the Father. Saying "a god" introduces theological confusion by creating the possibility of subordination or henotheism—an idea John did not intend to convey.
The claim that Trinitarianism is "rooted in Neo-Platonism" oversimplifies the historical development of Christian theology. While some early Church Fathers employed philosophical terminology to explain theological doctrines, the concept of the Trinity is based on biblical texts such as John 1:1, Philippians 2:6-11, and Colossians 1:15-20, which reveal Christ’s divine identity. The Nicene Creed affirmed that the Son shares the same divine essence as the Father, and this was not merely "a product of Greek philosophy" but a reflection of the Church's scriptural understanding of Jesus' deity. The homoousios ("same essence") of the Nicene Creed encapsulates this understanding of Christ’s full divinity and eternal nature.
The assertion that Trinitarianism represents a "great apostasy" and "stems from paganism", as propounded by Alexander Hislop's Two Babylons, has been widely debunked by both historical and theological scholars. Hislop's thesis was based on selective and often misinterpreted historical evidence, and reputable scholarship no longer supports his conclusions. The development of the doctrine of the Trinity was a response to various heresies and was deeply rooted in scriptural exegesis. It was not a pagan "invention", but a theological clarification aimed at safeguarding the Church's teaching on Christ's true nature. Early Christian writings such as those by Athanasius and the Cappadocian Fathers directly counter Arianism and defend the full divinity of the Son, indicating a continuity with the apostolic faith rather than a deviation. FYI: Did the Trinity Come from Paganism?
You referenced Daniel B. Wallace’s view on theos in John 1:1c. Wallace’s work emphasizes the qualitative nature of theos in this context, affirming that the Word shares fully in the divine essence without implying henotheism or a lesser deity. Wallace’s rejection of the NWT rendering "a god" is based on his understanding that the qualitative theos emphasizes the nature of the Word as divine. By contrast, the NWT introduces theological ambiguity by suggesting that the Word is a separate, subordinate god—a view that contradicts both Wallace’s interpretation and the broader context of John’s Gospel, which emphasizes the unity and full divinity of the Word.
In conclusion, the NWT’s translation "a god" introduces unnecessary theological confusion by suggesting a subordinationist or henotheistic framework inconsistent with the monotheistic message of both the Old and New Testaments. The qualitative rendering, "the Word was God," properly reflects the nature of the Word as fully divine without implying a second, lesser god. This is the most accurate translation in line with the intent of John's Gospel and the monotheism of early Christianity.
By addressing these points, the argument that the NWT rendering is "superior" falls apart under scrutiny, revealing theological misinterpretations and inconsistencies with both the biblical and historical understanding of Christ's deity.
164
How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.
aqwsed12345

@Earnest
I would like to clarify both the context of Justin's writing and the broader theological implications of his thought. In Dialogue with Trypho 56, Justin writes about Christ as "another god and lord subject to the Maker of all things," using the Greek term hupo (ὑπό), which you correctly translate as "under" or "subject." However, Justin's use of the term "subject" does not imply that Christ is ontologically inferior or a created being. Instead, this language reflects the relational distinction between the Father and the Son in terms of their roles within the Godhead, which is consistent with early Trinitarian thought.
In the broader context of Justin's writings, Christ is clearly recognized as divine and shares the same essence as the Father. Justin frequently affirms that Christ is "God" (Theos) and is worshipped alongside the Father, which indicates a high Christology. For example, in First Apology 63, Justin explicitly calls Christ "God" and affirms that He is begotten from the Father before all creation. He also uses the analogy of fire to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son, noting that just as one flame kindled from another does not diminish the original, so the Son shares fully in the divine essence without diminishing the Father's deity.
The key distinction that must be made here is between subordination of role and subordination of essence. Justin is not implying that the Son is of a different or lesser essence than the Father. Instead, he is describing the Son’s functional subordination in His role as the mediator and messenger (angelos, or messenger, in Greek) between God and humanity. This functional subordination reflects the economy of salvation, where the Son voluntarily takes on a role of submission to the Father's will for the purpose of redeeming humanity (see Philippians 2:6-8).
In this sense, hupo does not imply ontological inferiority but refers to the Son's role in the divine mission. The early Church Fathers, including Justin, maintained the distinction between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in terms of their roles while upholding their ontological unity as one God. The Son's role as the "Messenger of the Lord" in Old Testament theophanies (as described by Justin) highlights His role as the divine messenger but does not diminish His deity.
Justin's Dialogue with Trypho is an apologetic work aimed at a Jewish audience, and part of his strategy is to demonstrate that the Logos (the Word) of God, who is Christ, appeared in the Old Testament as the divine messenger. When Justin refers to Christ as "another god and lord," he is engaging with Jewish monotheism, which rejected the idea of the Son's deity. By using this language, Justin is emphasizing both the distinction of persons within the Godhead and the unity of essence.
While Justin uses the term "another god," this must be understood in light of his broader theology. He is not introducing polytheism or suggesting that the Son is a lesser deity. Instead, he is using relational language to describe the distinction between the Father and the Son. This is consistent with early Trinitarian thought, where the Father and the Son are distinct in personhood but united in essence.
Justin Martyr frequently affirms Christ's full divinity. For instance, in Dialogue with Trypho 128, Justin states that the Son is "begotten from the Father" and is "God," sharing in the divine essence. He describes Christ as the "first-begotten Word of God," and explicitly affirms that the Son is worthy of worship, which would be blasphemous if Christ were merely a subordinate or created being.
Furthermore, Justin's analogy of fire from fire, mentioned earlier, demonstrates that he understood the Son to share fully in the divine nature of the Father. This analogy was later echoed in Nicene Trinitarian theology to affirm the co-equality of the Father and the Son in essence, even as they are distinct in personhood.
While Justin Martyr uses the language of subordination in describing the relationship between the Father and the Son, it is important to recognize that this subordination pertains to role and mission, not essence. Justin clearly affirms that Christ is divine, begotten from the Father before all creation, and worthy of worship. His use of hupo in Dialogue with Trypho 56 does not imply that Christ is a lesser god or a created being but reflects the early Christian understanding of the relational distinction within the Trinity.
Justin's theology lays the groundwork for what would later be fully articulated in the Nicene Creed: that Christ is "begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father." This understanding is consistent with Justin's teaching, and his use of relational language should not be misconstrued as an argument for ontological subordination. Therefore, Justin's description of Christ as "another god" must be understood in the context of Trinitarian theology, where the Father and the Son are distinct in personhood but fully united in essence.
FYI: Did Constantine Invent the Trinity?
164
How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.
aqwsed12345

@slimboyfat
Your interpretation of Justin Martyr’s First Apology 6, particularly the phrases "who came forth from Him" and "the other good angels," requires a careful examination of Justin’s overall theology, as well as the precise language he uses.
The phrase “came forth from Him” does not necessarily imply that Justin considered the Son to be a created being. In fact, Justin’s usage of such language needs to be understood within the framework of his broader Christology, where he repeatedly refers to the Son as begotten, not made. For instance, in Dialogue with Trypho 128, Justin explicitly states that Christ was "begotten" from the Father before all creation. This language reflects the early Christian understanding of the eternal generation of the Son, a concept that was further developed in later Trinitarian theology but is still present in Justin's thought. The Son’s origin from the Father is not an act of creation but an eternal relationship, distinguishing Him from created beings like the angels.
To further illustrate this, in Dialogue with Trypho 61, Justin compares the begetting of the Son to the way in which one fire kindles another without diminishing the first fire. This analogy shows that Justin understood the Son to be of the same divine nature as the Father, not a lesser or created being. The Son “comes forth” from the Father in an eternal, non-temporal sense, as the radiance from a source, not as a creature distinct in essence.
The phrase "the other good angels" might seem to equate Jesus with the angels, but this interpretation does not align with Justin's full teaching. In First Apology 63, Justin makes it clear that the Son is worshiped and called “God,” affirming His divine status far above that of the angels. Additionally, Justin explicitly states that the Son is distinct from created beings, which includes angels: "This Offspring, which was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures" (Dialogue with Trypho 62). Here, Justin emphasizes that the Son was with the Father before any creation, including angels, which clearly sets Jesus apart from them.
When Justin refers to Christ as an "ángelos" in some contexts, he is using the term in its literal Greek sense, meaning "messenger," rather than suggesting that Christ is an angelic being like those who were created. He uses this title to emphasize Christ’s role in revealing God’s will to humanity, especially in Old Testament theophanies (appearances of God). However, Justin always maintains the Son's unique divine status, as seen in his description of the Son as "God" and "Lord" in Dialogue with Trypho 128.
Justin sometimes calls the Son an "angel" (Greek: ἄγγελος, which means "messenger") to highlight His role in God's revelation to humanity, particularly in the Old Testament. For example, in Dialogue with Trypho 60-61, Justin identifies the figure who appeared to Moses in the burning bush as both "God" and "Angel," which is consistent with Christian belief that the pre-incarnate Christ appeared in these Old Testament theophanies. However, Justin does not mean that Christ is a created angel like Gabriel or Michael. Rather, he uses the term “ángelos” to describe Christ's function as a divine messenger. This usage of "angel" does not imply that Christ is a creature but emphasizes His role in delivering God’s message, while His nature remains fully divine.
Justin makes it clear throughout his works that Christ is distinct from and superior to the angels. For example, in Dialogue with Trypho 56, Justin uses Psalm 45:6 ("Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever") to argue that Christ is God and worthy of worship, which clearly places Him above the angels. Additionally, in Dialogue with Trypho 128, Justin explains that the Son shares in the Father’s divine nature and is distinct from the created order, which includes angels.
The phrase “other good angels” in First Apology 6 does not mean that Jesus is simply one among many angels. Rather, it reflects Justin’s understanding of the hierarchy within the divine and created order. Christ, as the Logos, is pre-eminent and divine, while the "other good angels" are part of the created order, subordinate to Him. Justin’s worship of Christ, alongside the Father and the Spirit (First Apology 13), further demonstrates that he did not consider Christ to be merely an angelic being but fully divine and worthy of worship.
Justin explicitly identifies Christ as God on numerous occasions. In First Apology 63, he states: "The Father of the universe has a Son, who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God." This statement affirms that Justin viewed Jesus as fully divine, not a mere created being. Additionally, Justin argues that Christ was involved in the creation of the world, another clear indication of His divine status (Dialogue with Trypho 61).
In conclusion, the claim that Justin Martyr viewed Jesus as a created angel or a being subordinate and inferior to God the Father, as the JWs teach, is not supported by the full context of his writings. While Justin occasionally uses the term “ángelos” to describe Christ’s role as a divine messenger, he consistently affirms the Son’s deity and eternal relationship with the Father. Justin’s Christology is far more compatible with later Trinitarian theology than with the Arian or JW view that Christ is a created being.
@Earnest
Justin Martyr does indeed refer to Christ using terms like "angel" and "god", but it is crucial to understand how he uses these terms. In Greek, the word "angelos" simply means "messenger," and Justin's use of the term is not to suggest that Christ is ontologically a created angel or a lesser deity, but rather to emphasize His role as the divine messenger of God to humanity. Justin specifically says in Dialogue with Trypho that Christ is the "Angel of the Lord" who appeared to figures such as Abraham and Moses, but he clarifies that this is the pre-incarnate Christ, who is the divine Son of God, not a created being.
When Justin refers to Christ as "god" (or "another god"), it is important to remember that he is engaging with a pagan and Jewish audience who would have understood "god" in various ways. Justin uses "god" in the sense of one who possesses divine authority and essence, but always in the context of the strict monotheism that he held. He makes it clear that Jesus is distinct from the Father but shares in the same divine nature. As you rightly noted, Justin says that Christ is "not the God above whom there is no other god" (Dialogue with Trypho 56), but this does not imply subordination in essence. Instead, it reflects the distinct persons within the Godhead, a concept that would later be formally articulated in Trinitarian theology.
You suggest that Justin's Christology does not align with later Trinitarian formulations and that he saw Jesus as a subordinate god. However, this is a misreading of Justin's overall theology. While it is true that Justin lived in the second century and did not use the technical language of the Nicene Creed, his writings clearly lay the groundwork for what would become orthodox Trinitarian doctrine. For example, Justin consistently affirms that Jesus is the "only-begotten Son" and "the Word of God" who is "even God" (First Apology 63). He refers to the relationship between the Father and the Son as one of "begetting," not creation, and uses the analogy of fire from fire to emphasize that the Son is fully divine and shares the same essence as the Father.
Justin's theology reflects the early Christian struggle to articulate the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in a way that is faithful to Scripture. While he may not have used the precise language of later Trinitarian theologians, the key elements of Trinitarian thought—one God in three persons, with the Son sharing the same divine essence as the Father—are present in his writings. To suggest that Justin believed in a subordinationist view of Christ is to ignore these foundational ideas.
In Dialogue with Trypho, Justin is primarily engaging with a Jewish audience that rejected the deity of Christ. His argument is focused on showing that Christ, the "Angel of the Lord" who appeared in Old Testament theophanies, is indeed divine. When Justin refers to Christ as "another god," he is not introducing polytheism or a subordinationist theology. Instead, he is emphasizing the distinction between the persons of the Father and the Son, which is a cornerstone of Trinitarian theology. Justin's language reflects the early Christian attempt to navigate Jewish monotheism while affirming the divinity of Christ.
Justin's writings do not support the idea that he saw Christ as a lesser or created being. In fact, he argues the opposite: Christ is eternal, pre-existent, and fully divine, sharing in the Father's essence. The use of terms like "angel" and "another god" in Dialogue with Trypho must be understood in their theological context, which points to a high Christology that anticipates the later development of the doctrine of the Trinity.
You noted that Justin does not directly reference the Gospel of John in Dialogue with Trypho, but his Logos Christology clearly reflects John's Prologue. Justin identifies Christ as the eternal Word (Logos) of God, who is "with [the] God" and "was God" (John 1:1). He emphasizes that the Logos is not a created being but is begotten of the Father and shares the Father's divine nature. This understanding aligns with the Johannine theology of Christ's pre-existence and divinity.
Justin's use of the term "monogenes" (only-begotten) also reflects John's Gospel (John 3:16), further indicating his familiarity with the Logos theology of the New Testament. While Justin may not explicitly cite John, his writings are steeped in the same theological framework that would later be formalized as part of orthodox Christian doctrine.
Justin Martyr's writings are an important bridge between the apostolic age and the later development of Trinitarian theology. While the full articulation of the Trinity would not come until the fourth century, Justin's work laid the foundation by affirming the divinity of Christ and His distinction from the Father. His use of language such as "another god" reflects the early Church's effort to explain the relationship between the Father and the Son within the context of strict monotheism.
In conclusion, Justin Martyr did not believe in a subordinationist or Arian Christology. His writings affirm the divinity of Christ, using language that anticipates later Trinitarian doctrine. The claim that Justin saw Christ as "another god" in a way that supports a non-Trinitarian theology is a misunderstanding of his work. Justin's theology is consistent with the Christian belief in one God in three persons, with the Father and the Son sharing the same divine essence.