Posts by aqwsed12345

30

FDS 1919 Declaration Date

by NotFormer in

did rutherford have any "prophetic" justification for 1919 as the date that jesus declared him (ahem, the wt organisation) the fds?

such as some calculation attached to 1914?

that in 1919, jesus would come looking for his true organisation?.

aqwsed12345

1. The Continuity of Christian Faith from the First Century Onward

The claim that there was no true Christianity between the second century and 1919 contradicts the biblical promise made by Jesus Himself. In Matthew 16:18, Jesus declared: "You are Peter, and on this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." This verse clearly shows that the Church, founded by Christ, would not fail or disappear. Jesus explicitly guaranteed that His Church would endure, and this assurance contradicts the idea of a total apostasy spanning nearly 1800 years.

Additionally, Jude 3 tells Christians to "contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." This indicates that the faith was delivered once and for all, implying that the truth would not be completely lost for a prolonged period of time.

2. Apostasy is Foretold, but Not a Total Collapse

It’s true that the New Testament warns about false teachers and apostasy (e.g., 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Acts 20:29-30), but these passages never suggest a total collapse of Christianity. Rather, they speak of the appearance of false teachings and teachers within the Church. The existence of false teachings or movements within Christianity does not mean the Church itself failed. Throughout history, there have always been faithful believers who adhered to the true teachings of Christ.

Even in times of great corruption or error, as seen during the Middle Ages or during certain periods of church history, reform movements, councils, and individuals like the early Church Fathers and Saints defended and clarified Christian doctrine. These efforts show that God has always preserved a remnant of faithful Christians, as He promised.

3. The Claim of Restoration in 1919 Lacks Scriptural and Historical Support

The idea that God’s true people were restored in 1919 after a long period of spiritual captivity has no biblical foundation. The Jehovah’s Witnesses base this belief on a selective and allegorical interpretation of Ezekiel 37 and other prophetic passages, but there is no biblical prophecy that specifically points to 1919 as the year of restoration.

The vision in Ezekiel 37 about dry bones coming to life speaks of the restoration of Israel, not a future period of captivity and restoration for Christianity. Applying this to the period between the second century and 1919 is a misapplication of the text. Historically, many Christian denominations, including the Catholic and Orthodox churches, trace their roots back to the apostles and maintained a continuous presence long before 1919.

4. Jesus’ Role as Head of the Church

According to Jehovah’s Witness theology, Jesus appointed the "faithful and discreet slave" in 1919 to provide spiritual food. However, Ephesians 1:22-23 and Colossians 1:18 make it clear that Christ has always been the head of the Church, guiding it directly. There is no biblical basis for the claim that Jesus’ leadership over His Church was interrupted for 1800 years, only to be restored through a particular group in 1919.

5. The Historical Evidence of Christianity’s Continuity

Throughout history, Christianity has seen various denominations, reform movements, and theological developments, but the core teachings of the faith—belief in the divinity of Christ, the Trinity, and salvation through grace—have been preserved. The early Church Fathers, councils, and creeds (such as the Nicene Creed) provide clear evidence that true Christian doctrine was maintained and defended long before 1919. To suggest that Christianity was entirely apostate for such a long period ignores the contributions of these faithful Christians who upheld biblical truth.

6. The Problem of an Arbitrary Date

The choice of 1919 as the date when true Christianity was supposedly restored is problematic. This date is based on a series of speculative interpretations of events, rather than clear biblical prophecy. There is no historical or theological evidence to support the claim that Jesus appointed a new group of leaders in that year to restore true Christianity. Furthermore, if God truly intended to restore His people after centuries of apostasy, there would be more substantial and clear signs in history and scripture.

Conclusion

The claim that Christianity disappeared between the second century and 1919 and was only restored afterward is not supported by Scripture, history, or logic. Jesus promised that His Church would endure and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. While there have been periods of corruption, error, and false teachings, God’s true Church has always remained, faithfully preserving the teachings of Christ. The idea of a complete apostasy and subsequent restoration in 1919 is based on a selective and speculative interpretation of Scripture and cannot be reconciled with the broader context of Christian history and theology.

79

John 1:1 in Coptic Translation

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

apparently there has been quite a stir in jw apologetic circles recently about the translation of john 1:1 in the early sahidic version of john.

i don't know if this has been discussed here before - if someone could give a link to a previous thread they know about on the subject that would be great.

here is what i gather: .

aqwsed12345

The Bohairic translation, which is still used in the Coptic Church, still has ⲞⲨⲚⲞⲨϮ, but it does not bother anyone, until WTS picked up on this, none of the Coptic Christians who have always been Trinitarian ever thought that ⲞⲨⲚⲞⲨϮ / ΥΝΟΥΤЄ it is to be understood that the Word was "a secondary, lesser god". In fact, the critics only started to deal with this when WTS bit on it, and of course since the reactions appeared, WTS is not forcing it, maybe because they also see that it is anything but conclusive.

The translation of "theos" as "ounoute" in Coptic, where the prefix "ⲞⲨ-" (ou-), does not mean that the translators considered Jesus a lesser deity. Instead, the qualitative interpretation is appropriate, suggesting that the Word was "truly divine in nature." The text of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed in Coptic consistently uses the phrase "Ⲟⲩⲛⲟⲩϯ," which we can translate as "one God." This formulation does not suggest that it proclaims a secondary or lesser god but rather that it refers to the one true God in whom Christians believe. This indicates that in Coptic, "ounoute" denotes a quality within the context that emphasizes the unity and truth of the divine nature. Here is the transliteration of the Coptic text of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed:

Tennahṭi eounouti nouot: Pnuti Piot Pipantokratōr: Phee-taf-thamio entfe nem pkahi: neetounau erou nem neete ensenau erou an.
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

Tennahṭi eouchois n'ouot Iēsous Pikhristos Pshēri mPnuti: pimonogenēs: pimisi ebol khen Piot khajou nnieōn tērou.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son, who was born of the Father before all ages.

Ououini ebol khen ououini: Ounouti ntafmei ebol khen Ounouti ntafmei. Oumisi pe outhamio an pe: ouhomoousios pe nem Piot: Phee-taf hōb niben shopi ebol hitotf. Phai ete ethbēten anōn kha niromi nem ethve penoujai: afi epesēt ebol khen tfe: afchisarks ebol khen Pipneuma Ethouab nem ebol khen Maria tīparthenos ouoh aferromi.
Light from Light, true God from true God; begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

Ⲟⲩⲛⲟⲩϯ ⲛ̀ⲧⲁⲫ̀ⲙⲏⲓ ⲉ̀ⲃⲟⲗ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲟⲩⲛⲟⲩϯ ⲛ̀ⲧⲁⲫ̀ⲙⲏⲓ ("True God of true God.") In this phrase, Ⲟⲩⲛⲟⲩϯ (ounouti) is used twice, meaning "God" each time. The phrase is emphasizing the divine nature of Jesus Christ, stating that He is "true God" begotten of "true God." The article Ⲟⲩ- (ou-) in both instances conveys the meaning "one true God," though in English, it's more idiomatic to translate this directly as "True God of True God."

So, from Jehovah’s Witnesses' perspective, this interpretation is a self-defeating argument. In Coptic, "ounoute" does not mean "a lesser, secondary god," but rather "(the) one (true) God." The argument that the Coptic version of John 1:1c supports the translation "the Word was a god" is based on a misunderstanding of Coptic grammar and syntax. Thus, in the Coptic translation, the fact that the Logos was "ounoute" actually supports the theology of the Nicene Creed, which asserts that the Word, the Son, is true, Almighty God, and not a lesser deity.

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

aqwsed12345

@vienne

You claim that "olam" cannot refer to eternity in Micah 5:2, only to a distant past. However, "olam" is indeed often used in Scripture to refer to an eternal or indefinite period beyond human understanding. For instance, Psalm 90:2 uses "olam" to describe God’s eternal existence ("from everlasting to everlasting"). Therefore, the claim that "olam" only refers to distant past in Micah 5:2 is flawed.

You suggest that "origin" in Micah 5:2 implies a temporal beginning, and therefore the Messiah must have been created at some point. Precisely, Trinitarian theology also affirms that the Son has origin from the Father, but it does not mean "ex nihilo" creation or coming into being at a point in time.

The New Testament frequently speaks of Jesus as existing before creation. For example, John 8:58 (“Before Abraham was, I am”) identifies Jesus not as a created being but as existing before time, echoing the divine name "I AM" (YHWH) from Exodus 3:14.

The phrase "goings forth" does not necessarily denote a temporal beginning. For instance, Psalm 93:2 describes God’s throne as "established from of old," using similar language without implying a point of creation.

The New Testament sees Micah 5:2 as a prophecy about Jesus. Matthew 2:6 directly connects this verse to Christ’s birth, indicating that the ruler who comes from Bethlehem is the Messiah. Other passages, such as John 1:1-3 and Colossians 1:15-20, emphasize that Jesus is not merely a representative of God but shares fully in the divine nature. Colossians calls Jesus "the image of the invisible God," meaning He perfectly reveals the nature of God because He is God.

The claim that Jesus rules by God’s authority but isn’t God misses the New Testament's theological message. Philippians 2:6-11 explicitly teaches that Jesus, though He "was in the form of God," humbled Himself to become human and is now exalted with a name above every name. This shows that Christ has both the authority and identity of God, not merely as a subordinate being but as God Himself.

In the original Greek, the phrase "the Word was God" (καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος) is clear and unambiguous. The word order emphasizes the deity of the Word (Jesus), and the lack of a definite article before "God" does not imply a lesser god but underscores that the Word shares the same nature as God. It directly supports the doctrine of the Trinity, showing that the Word is fully divine. John 1:1 also highlights the eternal existence of the Word: "In the beginning was the Word." This emphasizes the Word's preexistence before creation, not as a created being but as eternally existing alongside God.

The argument that John 1:1 says "the Word was God" instead of "the Word is God" is easily addressed by understanding the nature of biblical narrative. John's Gospel begins with a timeless truth about Jesus' pre-existence before creation. The use of "was" emphasizes the eternality of the Word and His role in creation. John's purpose was to highlight the Logos’ (Word’s) divinity from the beginning, making "was" appropriate to convey the eternal nature of the Word in relation to time.

If John had said "is" instead of "was," the focus would shift to a present state without fully capturing the eternal existence of the Word before creation. This also supports the Trinitarian understanding that Jesus, as the Logos, is eternal, sharing the divine essence with the Father.

Furthermore, John's Gospel continues to affirm the present deity of Christ throughout the text (e.g., John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I AM"), emphasizing both His past and present divinity. Thus, "was" in John 1:1 doesn't negate the ongoing divine nature of Christ but emphasizes His eternal existence.

You dismiss reliance on "Catholic councils" and later theological developments, arguing that they aren't scriptural. However, the doctrine of the Trinity emerges directly from the biblical text, as the early church councils were clarifying what was already implicitly believed based on Scripture.

The claim that Micah 5:2 refers to Jesus as having a temporal origin is mistaken. Scripture, when taken in its entirety, reveals that Jesus, the Messiah, is eternal, sharing fully in the divine nature with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Micah 5:2, far from supporting a created Jesus, aligns with the New Testament portrayal of the Messiah as eternally existent, divine, and co-equal with the Father.

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

aqwsed12345

@slimboyfat

Faith of Our Fathers (Part 1): Were the Early Christians Jehovah’s Witnesses?

Faith of Our Fathers (Part 2): Were the Early Christians Jehovah’s Witnesses?

The claim that early Christians saw Jesus “as distinct and subordinate to God”, and that only later did he become part of a “Trinity of equals,” overlooks critical early Christian texts that suggest otherwise. The New Testament, particularly in the writings of Paul and the Gospels, already indicates a high Christology. In passages such as John 1:1-3, the Logos (Word) is not only with God but is also explicitly called God, which directly counters the idea that Jesus was seen only as a subordinate figure until later centuries.

Geza Vermes, while influential in highlighting Jesus' Jewish roots, is critiqued for underestimating the early Christian devotion to Jesus as divine. Rowan Williams, in his review of Vermes' Christian Beginnings, points out that the rapid development of devotion to Jesus as divine among Jewish followers was not an innovation of the fourth century but can be traced back to the very first generation of Christians. Williams argues that such devotion escalated within the first century, propelled by charismatic experiences of the resurrected Jesus, thus challenging the claim that the Council of Nicaea introduced something entirely new or “revolutionary”.

And it is a fact that Vermes is not exactly known as a researcher of patristics, and it is not appropriate for him to make such bold claims.There are numerous external and internal sources indicating that early Christians believed Jesus to be God, not Michael, long before Nicaea. For example:

Pliny the Younger (61–113), governor of the provinces of Pontus and Bithynia, wrote to Emperor Trajan around 112 about how to handle Christians who refused to worship the emperor, instead "they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god".
Tacitus (circa 56–120) wrote that during the Eucharistic ceremonies, Christians consumed the body and blood of their God, which was misunderstood as cannibalism. This clearly demonstrates that early Christians believed in the divinity of Jesus and in His real presence in the Eucharist.
The Alexamenos Graffito: "Alexamenos worships [his] God," also disproves the Jehovah's Witnesses' concept of the "torture stake."

"While it is true that the new freedom the church experienced under Constantine did have its negative side, it doesn’t follow that the church “fell” as some say. Throughout history the church has made mistakes in its dealings with secular society and in knowing how to properly handle the freedom and power it has experienced. Some complain today that Christians become too wedded to political parties, courting compromise in the process. This was no different in Constantine’s day. That there was a new coloring to the church when it became established under Constantine, there is no debate. But the idea that the church quickly became corrupt, and that the councils convened during his reign were simply pawns of the emperor is simplistic. The church continued to be faithful to the task of clarifying and passing on the apostolic tradition. “The faith professed and practiced in the early churches was not determined by the political machinations of emperors and episcopal hierarchies,” says Williams. “The essential formulation and construction of the Christian identity was something that the fourth century received and continued to expand upon through its biblical exegesis and liturgical life as reflected in the credal Tradition.”Consider what came out of the period of Constantine’s reign. Says Williams:

I am claiming the late patristic period functioned as a kind of doctrinal canon by which all subsequent developments of theology were measured up to the present day. The great creeds of the period, the development of Trinitarian and Christological theology, the finalization of the biblical canon, doctrines pertaining to the human soul and being made in the image of God, to the fall and redemption, to justification by faith, and so on, find their first and (in many cases) enduring foothold in this period. All theological steps later taken, in confirmation or denial, will begin on the trail marked by the early Fathers. . . . The theology that developed after Constantine was not a movement radically subversive to Scripture and to the apostolic faith. On the contrary, the major creeds and doctrinal deliberations were a conscious extension of the earlier Tradition and teaching of the New Testament while attempting, in light new challenges, to articulate a Christian understanding of God and salvation." (Source)

This "Great Apostasy" is not only completely unfounded silly conspiracy theory, it is a desperate forcing of his own heretic ideology into antiquity, even though this theology was invented only by the cult leader on his desk in the open Bible: "ah I think is the correct meaning of the text, so the ancient Christians must have believed it so as well. Oh, the sources do not indicated this? Ah, because that sources are 'apostate' ones, and a good ones were destroyed."

While you refer to John Ziesler’s comments about the subordination of Christ to God in Philippians 2:5-11, it’s important to note that early Christian texts frequently explore the mystery of the relationship between Jesus and God. Though Philippians speaks of Christ's humility and God’s exaltation of him, it does not imply that Christ is merely a subordinate being. In fact, Christ is given the divine title “Lord,” and the hymn suggests that he pre-existed before his earthly life. This indicates an early recognition of Christ’s unique relationship with God, which is foundational to Trinitarian theology, even if not fully articulated in its later, more developed form.

You identify correctly that early Christians used concepts familiar to Jewish thought, such as Wisdom and Logos, to understand Jesus. However, the comparison of these figures to Jesus doesn't diminish Christ’s divine status in Christian theology. In John’s Gospel, the Logos is not just an abstract concept or a secondary power but fully divine, and intimately involved in creation (John 1:1-3). Early Christians saw Jesus as embodying these concepts in a uniquely personal and divine way, unlike the impersonal Wisdom or Shekhinah in Jewish thought.

Peter Schäfer's Two Gods in Heaven highlights a distinct idea in some strands of Jewish thought, but this concept cannot be directly applied to early Christian understanding of Jesus. In Judaism, the "second god" concept was more of a speculative theology—ideas about intermediaries like angels or personified Wisdom. However, the New Testament never presents Jesus as a mere intermediary or lesser god. Instead, Jesus is consistently depicted as possessing the same divine nature as God the Father, even while fulfilling distinct roles within the Godhead.

For example, in John 1:1, Jesus (the Logos) is declared to be both "with God" and "was God," affirming His full divinity. The Shema—the central confession of Jewish monotheism—was reinterpreted by early Christians to include Jesus within the one God of Israel (1 Corinthians 8:6). This shows that early Christians did not see Jesus as a separate, subordinate deity but as fully sharing in the divine identity of the one true God.

The argument based on Philippians 2:5-11, as presented by John Ziesler, suggests that Jesus is distinct and subordinate because He is exalted by God and His exaltation is "to the glory of God the Father." However, this interpretation misses the key theological point of the passage, which emphasizes Jesus' pre-existence in the form of God, His voluntary humiliation, and His subsequent exaltation as the Lord of all creation.

The phrase "being in the form of God" refers to Jesus' pre-existent divinity, showing that He already shared in God's nature before His incarnation. The passage says that Jesus "did not consider equality with God something to be grasped"—not because He lacked equality, but because He willingly chose not to cling to it for His own advantage. This reinforces Jesus' divinity, not His subordination.

Jesus' taking on "the form of a servant" refers to His incarnation—His voluntary assumption of human nature. His subsequent exaltation to the highest place and receiving "the Name above every name" (v. 9) confirms His sovereign lordship over creation. While the passage states that this exaltation is "to the glory of God the Father" (v. 11), it does not imply ontological subordination, especially not ontological inferiority. Rather, it highlights the distinct roles within the Godhead, where the Son's exaltation brings glory to the Father in a relationship of mutual honor.

In Trinitarian theology, the Son's submission to the Father during His earthly ministry and even in His exaltation does not negate His equality with the Father in essence. It reflects a functional distinction, not a difference in nature or divinity.

The argument assumes that because Jesus is exalted by the Father, He must be subordinate in essence. This reflects a misunderstanding of the distinction between ontological equality and functional subordination within the Trinity. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equal in essence and nature, sharing the same divine attributes. However, they carry out distinct roles in the economy of salvation.

In His incarnation, Jesus humbled Himself and became obedient to the Father's will. This submission, however, is part of the Son’s role in the work of redemption, not an indication of inferiority. Jesus' exaltation to "the Name above every name" (Philippians 2:9) is a public affirmation of His divine status, which He already possessed in His pre-incarnate state. It is a return to the glory He had with the Father "before the world existed" (John 17:5).

The idea that early Christians mythologized Jesus and only later literalized his divinity (euhemerism) oversimplifies the complex theological developments of the early church. As David Brakke points out in his critique of Vermes, Vermes has to work hard to dismiss the early devotion to Jesus as divine, particularly the early Christian accounts of the resurrection and texts like the Philippians hymn. The exalted status of Jesus, even as early as the Pauline letters, contradicts the claim that Christ’s divinity was a later imposition.

While the Council of Nicaea in 325 clarified the nature of Christ's divinity in response to Arianism, it did not "invent" the idea of Christ’s divinity. Nicaea formalized what had been widely believed for centuries—that Jesus Christ is “of one substance” with the Father. Early Christian worship, prayers directed to Jesus, and theological reflections in the New Testament demonstrate that belief in Jesus’ divinity was foundational long before Nicaea. The council was not introducing a new doctrine but defending what was already practiced by the early church against emerging heresies.

The development of Christian theology, particularly the doctrine of the Trinity, was not a sudden fourth-century invention but rooted in the earliest Christian experiences of Jesus as both Lord and God. Early texts like the Gospels and Pauline letters reflect a high Christology that acknowledges Jesus' divine role alongside the Father, while the Council of Nicaea served to clarify and protect this belief, rather than “create” it.

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

aqwsed12345

@Rattigan350

1. "Why should anyone care what the Council of Florence says? You all complain about the governing body but these councils are far worse."

For example, you should care about, because then you might find out that Trinitarian Christian theology is defined in such a way that by definition it includes that the Son received everything from the Father, so the fact that you show that the Son received all his knowledge from the Father, you refute nothing of this definition. You know, in the best case, we read after what we actually want to refute, avoiding the straw man arguments.

The Council of Florence, like other ecumenical councils in Christian history, represents the unified decisions of the early Christian Church. These councils, including Florence, were convened to clarify theological issues based on biblical teaching and the tradition passed down from the apostles. Ecumenical councils involved a wide array of bishops, theologians, and early Church leaders from across different regions and churches, relying on Scripture and centuries of tradition. The conclusions they reached were debated extensively, and they built on the apostolic faith handed down from the time of Christ and his apostles.

While you may reject these councils' authority, they have played a vital role in ensuring the consistency and orthodoxy of Christian teaching throughout history, including the formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity, which is rooted in Scripture.

2. "There is no Godhead. That is not even a word."

This claim is incorrect. The term "Godhead" is indeed a legitimate word in Christian theology and even in Scripture itself. For instance, the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible uses the term "Godhead" in Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, and Colossians 2:9. In Colossians 2:9, Paul writes, "For in him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." The term "Godhead" refers to the divine nature or essence of God and is used to describe the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as sharing one divine substance.

The rejection of the word based on its unfamiliarity or perceived complexity does not invalidate its theological importance. It has been part of Christian discourse for centuries and is grounded in biblical language.

3. "Big and fancy words that have no meanings..."

You criticize the use of theological terms like "Godhead" and "Logos" as being overly complicated, but it’s important to recognize that precision in language helps avoid confusion in theological discussions. The early Church used terms like "Logos" (Greek for "Word") and "Godhead" to express the depth of Christian beliefs, rooted in Scripture. The word "Logos" in John 1:1 is not a "fancy word" but a direct translation from the original Greek text. It was used to describe Jesus as the pre-existent divine Word, a concept that was well understood by both Jews and Gentiles at the time.

Furthermore, William Tyndale's quote about a ploughboy understanding Scripture does not mean we should avoid theological depth. Tyndale’s point was that Scripture should be accessible to everyone, not that it should be oversimplified or stripped of meaningful concepts. Theology often requires precision to avoid misunderstanding God’s nature, especially regarding complex doctrines like the Trinity.

4. "The English text says 'The Word was God.'... That's different from 'The Word was God', that is renaming Jesus as the God of old."

You appear to contradict themselves here, stating that "The Word was God" (John 1:1) but then arguing that this isn’t about Jesus being fully divine. However, John 1:1 clearly presents Jesus (the Word) as divine. The absence of the definite article in the Greek before "theos" (God) in John 1:1c emphasizes the quality of the Word’s divinity, not its inferiority. This construction tells us that Jesus shares the very nature of God, not that He is "a god" or merely divine in some lesser sense.

The argument that Jesus is "renaming" God is also misguided. The New Testament identifies Jesus as God (John 20:28, Titus 2:13) while distinguishing Him as a distinct person from the Father. The doctrine of the Trinity reconciles these truths: that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons but one in essence.

5. "The doctrine of the Trinity emphasizes that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share one essence... This is why it is wrong."

You claim that the Trinity is wrong without providing evidence to support their stance. The doctrine of the Trinity is the logical conclusion drawn from Scripture's teaching about the nature of God. The Bible reveals:

God is one (Deuteronomy 6:4).
Jesus is divine (John 1:1, John 8:58, Colossians 2:9).
The Holy Spirit is divine (Acts 5:3-4, 1 Corinthians 3:16).
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons (Matthew 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:14).

The Trinity is not a philosophical invention, but rather a way to understand and explain the complexity of the biblical revelation of God. The oneness of essence and the three distinct persons is the best way to reconcile the various teachings of the Bible about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

aqwsed12345

@Rattigan350

The fact that Jesus receives revelation from the Father does not contradict His divine omniscience. In His incarnational role, Jesus operated within the limitations of human nature while still retaining His divine attributes. The Council of Florence affirms that while the Son receives everything from the Father, this is within the context of an eternal relationship, not a temporal limitation: "Whatever the Son is or has, He has from the Father, and is the principle from a principle." This reception is part of the eternal communication within the Trinity and does not imply that Jesus lacked divine knowledge.

The purpose of John 1:1 is not merely to correct misunderstandings but to provide a theological foundation for understanding the identity of Jesus as the divine Logos. The text explicitly states, "the Word was God", affirming the full divinity of Christ. The absence of the definite article before "theos" in the original Greek is a grammatical feature that emphasizes the qualitative aspect of the Word's divinity, not a denial of His deity.

The doctrine of the Trinity emphasizes that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share one essence, one divinity, and one power. The distinction between the persons does not imply a division in the Godhead but rather a relational distinction within the unity of God's nature. This means that when Jesus, the Son, receives knowledge from the Father, it is not a sign of inferiority but a reflection of their eternal relationship within the Godhead.

Only God is eternal and immortal (Isaiah 40:28, Psalm 90:2, Romans 1:23, 16:26, 1 Timothy 1:17, 6:16). The Father is eternal and immortal (John 5:26), the Son is eternal and immortal (Matthew 28:20, John 5:26, 8:58, 17:5, Hebrews 7:21-28, 13:8, Revelation 1:18), and the Holy Spirit is eternal and immortal (Hebrews 9:14), yet there are not three eternal, immortal Gods, but one.
Only God is omnipresent (Psalm 139:8-10, Proverbs 15:3, Acts 17:27-28). The Father is omnipresent (Matthew 6:6, John 14:11, 2 John 9), the Son is omnipresent (Matthew 18:20, 28:20, 2 Corinthians 13:5, Colossians 1:17, 2:6, Hebrews 1:3), and the Holy Spirit is omnipresent (Psalm 139:7, John 14:17), yet there are not three omnipresent Gods, but one.
Only God is omniscient (1 Kings 8:31-32, Psalm 44:21-22, 94:9-10, 139:2, Job 21:22, Daniel 2:20, Romans 11:33-34). The Father is omniscient (Matthew 6:4,32, 10:29-30), the Son is omniscient (Luke 2:46-47, John 2:25, 4:19,29, 16:30, 21:17, Colossians 2:3, Matthew 25:31-45, Hebrews 4:12-13), and the Holy Spirit is omniscient (Isaiah 11:2, 40:13, Daniel 4:6, John 14:26, 16:13, 1 Corinthians 2:10-11), yet there are not three omniscient Gods, but one.
Only God is omnipotent (Genesis 17:1, Exodus 6:3, Psalm 72:18, Matthew 19:26, 1 Timothy 6:15, Revelation 11:17, 19:6). The Father is omnipotent (Mark 14:36, 2 Corinthians 6:18), the Son is omnipotent (Matthew 28:18, John 3:35, 5:19, Hebrews 1:3, Revelation 1:8), and the Holy Spirit is omnipotent (Job 33:4, Zechariah 4:6, Luke 1:35), yet there are not three omnipotent Gods, but one.

Read this:

The connection between Jesus’ statement in John 8:58 ("Before Abraham was, I am") and Exodus 3:14 ("I AM WHO I AM") is not just a later theological construct. Early Christian writers and even the Gospel of John itself present Jesus as identifying with the divine name, which would have been a profound statement of His divinity to His audience. This identification is a critical part of understanding Jesus' nature as more than a prophet or teacher but as God incarnate.

The assertion that the apostles or early Christians did not make this connection is incorrect. Early Church Fathers, such as Ignatius of Antioch and Irenaeus, recognized this connection. The Gospel of John was written precisely to show that Jesus is the Logos, the divine Word, who existed with God and was God.

Trinitarians do not ignore Psalm 110:1. On the contrary, this passage is crucial in understanding Jesus as both Lord and Messiah, who sits at the right hand of God. Trinitarian theology interprets this as a recognition of Christ’s authority and divine nature, not as a denial of His divinity.

The New Testament mentions baptisms performed "in the name of Jesus," which reflects the early Church's understanding of Jesus’ authority. Baptism "in the name of Jesus" does not express the form of the sacrament but rather its nature: it distinguishes it from John's baptism and indicates that it is performed by the authority of Christ, committing the baptized to Christ's name. Indeed, if in the apostolic era they had baptized only by invoking the name of Jesus, Saint Paul could not have asked the Ephesians, who had never heard of the Holy Spirit, "Into what, then, were you baptized?" (Acts 19:2-3). Early Christian tradition does not recognize any other formula than the invocation of the Trinity. The Trinitarian formula in Matthew 28:19 ("in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit") has been consistently upheld by the Church as reflecting the full revelation of God’s triune nature. Early Church tradition and teachings confirm this understanding.

Claims that Matthew 28:19 is "spurious" are not supported by historical evidence. The use of the Trinitarian formula in early Christian writings and practice shows its authenticity and importance in the Church’s understanding of God’s nature.

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

aqwsed12345

@slimboyfat

In the Jewish tradition, the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) was indeed inscribed on the headband worn by the Kohen Gadol (High Priest). The Tetragrammaton was not written on the high priest's forehead, but on a gold plate, which according to Jerome's description was worn on the high priest's forehead. This plate, bearing the Tetragrammaton, was fixed above the cap on the head of the high priest, and placed on his forehead, where it was tied with a blue cord. However, it's crucial to recognize that this practice was exclusive to the High Priest and was not a general practice for all priests or worshipers. In the New Testament, particularly in the Book of Hebrews, Christ is identified as the ultimate High Priest (Hebrews 4:14-16, 5:5-10, 7:23-28). As such, the role of the High Priest in the Christian context is uniquely fulfilled by Jesus Christ, not by any other individual or group.

In the Book of Revelation, references to names written on foreheads are clearly symbolic. The passages you refer to (Revelation 3:12, 14:1, 22:4) do not mention the Tetragrammaton. Instead, they speak of the "name of the Father" and the "name of the Lamb" being written on the foreheads of the faithful. This symbolism points to ownership, protection, and identity rather than a literal inscription. It signifies that those who bear these names belong to God and Christ, reflecting their allegiance and sanctification. The imagery of writing a name on the forehead in Revelation, particularly in passages like Revelation 3:12 and 14:1, represents divine ownership, identity, and protection. The text does not necessitate a correlation with the Tetragrammaton or the high priest's headband.

McDonough’s work might argue for the influence of Jewish traditions on the text, this does not conclusively establish that the references to the name in Revelation are direct allusions to the Tetragrammaton. Instead, their research can be understood as an examination of how early Christian writings navigated and reinterpreted Jewish concepts within a new theological framework.

You assert that the symbolism in Revelation must necessarily connect to the high priest and the Tetragrammaton. However, the New Testament reinterprets and re-contextualizes many Old Testament symbols. The role of the high priest, for instance, is reinterpreted in the person of Christ (Hebrews 4:14-5:10), and the concept of divine ownership is expanded to all believers (1 Peter 2:9). The high priest's headband, bearing the divine name, symbolized his unique role, but in Revelation, the "name on the forehead" extends this symbolism to all who belong to Christ. It indicates their identity as God’s people and their eternal belonging to Him, rather than directly invoking the imagery of the High Priest's headband.

It is also worth noting that the New Testament frequently reinterprets Old Testament symbols to fit the new covenant in Christ. The emphasis is often on the spiritual fulfillment of these symbols rather than their literal Old Testament counterparts. While the high priest's headband carried significant meaning under the old covenant, under the new covenant, the "name on the forehead" symbolizes a deeper spiritual reality—believers' transformed identity in Christ, who is now our High Priest.

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

aqwsed12345

@slimboyfat

The passages in the Book of Revelation, specifically Revelation 3:12, 14:1, and 22:4, do not refer to the Jewish High Priest (Kohen Gadol). According to the New Testament, particularly in the Epistle to the Hebrews, there is only one High Priest, Christ Himself. Therefore, the idea that the name written on the forehead refers to the Tetragrammaton, as associated with the high priest, is not biblically supported in these contexts.

The Book of Revelation belongs to the genre of apocalyptic literature, which is rich in symbolism. The name written on the forehead is one of many symbolic elements within the text. The assertion that this name is directly connected to the Tetragrammaton or the "trigram" (???) "Yaho" (???) from the first chapter of Revelation is speculative at best and lacks any scriptural evidence.

In Revelation 3:12, the promise of "a new name" given to the overcomers is symbolic of their transformation and eternal belonging to God. This new name is a reference to the changing names of Philadelphia, highlighting a new identity granted by Christ to the faithful. The writing of God's name, the name of the New Jerusalem, and Christ's own new name on the faithful signifies their complete and eternal inclusion in God's kingdom. Here, "name" represents divine nature; through sanctifying grace (and even more through the light of eternal glory), we become partakers of God's nature (cf. 2 Peter 1:4).

In Revelation 14:1, "the name of the Lamb and the 'name' of His Father written on the foreheads" of the 144,000 are symbolic of their total dedication and belonging to God. This is not a literal reference to the Tetragrammaton but a figurative expression indicating that these individuals are wholly claimed by God. The symbolism of "the Lamb and His Father’s 'name' on the foreheads" reflects their divine ownership and protection, underscoring the spiritual nature of the relationship rather than a physical inscription of a specific name, such as the Tetragrammaton.

Hence the references in Revelation to the name written on the forehead should be understood symbolically, emphasizing divine ownership and identity in Christ, rather than a literal reference to the Tetragrammaton or the practices of the Jewish High Priest.

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

aqwsed12345

@Duran

The problem isn't with acknowledging that the Father is God—Trinitarians wholeheartedly agree with that. The issue lies in the Watchtower Society's understanding that only the Father is God, and that "God" refers exclusively to the Father. This view is a form of unitarianism that denies the full divinity of the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Trinity teaches that God is one in essence but exists in three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three persons are not to be confused with one another but are co-equal and co-eternal, sharing the same divine nature. The Watchtower's perspective that conflates "God" solely with the Father ignores the Trinitarian distinction of persons. It also leads to misunderstandings, such as thinking that when Christians say "Jesus is YHWH," they mean "Jesus is the Father," which is not the case in orthodox Christian theology.

In Trinitarian doctrine, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each have unique roles within the Godhead, particularly in the economy of salvation. The Father sends the Son, and the Son becomes incarnate, dies, and is resurrected for the salvation of humanity. The Son's role as "sent by the Father" does not imply inferiority but a relational distinction within the Godhead. This is why Scripture can speak of Jesus as being "sent" by the Father or as having God as His God without denying His own divinity.

The Watchtower Society's approach often relies on the conflation of terms, where "God" is exclusively associated with the Father, and "Jesus" is merely seen as a created being, thus misunderstanding the Trinity. In contrast, the term "Jehovah" in Christian theology refers to the divine name of God that encompasses all three persons of the Godhead, not just the person of the Father.

When the Watchtower speaks of "Jehovah and Jesus," it implicitly enforces its Arian theology, which views Jesus as a separate and lesser being (instead of just a distinct person, as the Bible teaches) from God the Father. This distinction is a linguistic and theological imposition that diverges from the traditional Christian understanding. Trinitarians would argue that "Jehovah" is not the exclusive name of the person of the Father but of God in His entirety, including the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Contrary to the portrayal by the Watchtower Society, the doctrine of the Trinity indeed includes the distinction of persons. It has nothing to do with the claim that "He was His own Son, that He sent Himself, and approved Himself." As a human, Jesus could pray to God; that is, His human soul could glorify the divinity that is in close connection with Him yet perfectly distinct from Him in essence. There is no contradiction in this; in fact, it is a natural consequence of the doctrine of the two natures.

According to the doctrine of the Trinity, one person (the Father) sent another (the Son), where their relationship was always real and substantial (not merely apparent), and at the same time, this occurred within the Godhead (not between the Creator and one of His creatures). It's interesting to note the reasoning of the WTS: the reader of their publications is expected to think of the Father whenever the word "God" is mentioned, but when the Bible refers to the Son as God (see John 1:1, 18; 20:28, etc.), they are immediately to think of the "relative" meaning of the word "god" as merely a "title" (?). However, the original Greek text and the Greek manuscripts prior to the 7th-8th century did not differentiate between uppercase "G" and lowercase "g" since they used only uppercase letters.

In the New Testament, particularly in the Gospel of John, Jesus is referred to as "God" (John 1:1, 20:28) and is worshipped as God by His disciples (Matthew 28:9, John 20:28). These instances show that the early Christians recognized Jesus as sharing in the divine nature of Jehovah, even while maintaining the distinction between Jesus and the Father. The concept of "Logos" in John 1:1 underscores this divine identity, presenting Jesus as the pre-existent Word who was with God and was God.

Revelation 14:1 - The "name of the Father" and "the name of the Lamb" are written on the foreheads of the 144,000. This verse highlights the close relationship and unity between the Father and the Son. However, it does not suggest that Jesus is a created being or distinct in essence from God. Instead, it reflects the shared divine authority and identity between the Father and the Son.

By the way, the phrase "name of the Father" does not need to be associated with the Tetragrammaton, nor does the phrase "the name of the Lamb" need to be linked to the name "Jesus." Nowhere in the New Testament do we read that the apostles proclaimed the importance of the cultic veneration of the name Yahweh, or even presented it as a condition for salvation in the Hellenistic world. As for the phrase "hallowed be Thy name," this is a simple Hebraism. The term "name" (onoma, shem) does not refer to a mere sequence of sounds, but rather to the "person," and in this case, it is a circumlocution for the Divine. "Blessed be the name of God" simply means "Blessed be God." The meaning of "hallowed be Thy name" is: 'may Your infinite majesty and perfection be recognized everywhere' (cf. Isa 29:23; 48:11; Ezek 36:23; 39:7; cf. Luke 1:49).

Furthermore, the word "hallow" is not in the optative mood but the imperative, and it is not man who is being asked to do something, but God. Literally translated: "let the name be made holy," i.e., by God, meaning that God should sanctify it among people so that His royal rule may finally come and His will be done on earth as it is in heaven (Matt 6:9-10). In the Lord's Prayer (Matt 6:9, Luke 11:2), this petition, "Hallowed be Thy name," means: may the strong and almighty, the good and loving heavenly Father personally and in a way perceptible to human understanding, take into His hands the restoration of this unfathomably chaotic, headless, and unrestrained world.

Jesus did not begin His prayer with "Jehovah," so the phrase "Thy name" here does not encourage some Watchtower-style emphasizated use of "Jehovah," as the word "name" here is to be understood in the sense of "person," or "being", as attested by the New Testament.

In the New Testament, the term "name" (onoma) signifies the person; the word "person" means someone's individual character, identity, and being. The Hebrew and Greek languages, lacking a word equivalent to the term "person," express the concept signified by the word "person" using the word "name." So when, for example, Psalm 75:1 says, "We give thanks to you, O God; Your name is near," it means: we thank You that You are personally close to us. Or in Psalm 116:4, "I called on the name of the Lord" means: I turned to the Lord, bringing my case directly before His person, appealing to Him. Or in Psalm 118:26, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" (Matt 21:9, Mark 11:9, Luke 19:38, John 12:13, Matt 23:39, Luke 13:35), it means: blessed is he who comes with a commission from the Lord, as a representative of His person. In Acts 1:15, it literally says: "The company of names was about 120"; meaning: "There was a company of about 120 persons." (So here again, the name means person or human.) In Acts 3:16, the phrase "the name of Jesus has made this man strong" means: Jesus personally healed him. In Matthew 28:19, the phrase "eis to onoma" can be translated as "in the name of," "on the name of," or "into the name of", and each essentially means this: through baptism, the child is brought into direct relationship with the person of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Acts 4:11-12 states: "…this Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved"; this means: outside of Christ Jesus, there is no other person through whom humanity can be saved. In the Lord's Prayer (Matt 6:9, Luke 11:2), this petition, "Hallowed be Thy name," means: may the strong and almighty, the good and loving heavenly Father personally and in a way perceptible to human understanding, take into His hands the restoration of this unfathomably chaotic, headless, and unrestrained world. - This is how the word "name," which appears 228 times in the New Testament, should be understood.

John 20:17 - When Jesus speaks of "my God and your God," He is addressing the Father from His position as the incarnate Son, fully divine yet fully human. This distinction does not deny His divinity but rather emphasizes His role in the incarnation, where He humbled Himself to take on human nature. The Son’s humanity involves a relationship with the Father in a way that reflects His mission of redemption.

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

aqwsed12345

@vienne

"It's not "only begotten god" but "only begotten son." "

In the critical text John 1:18 it's "monogenes theos", also in the Westcott-Hort, the base text on the NWT. The term "only begotten" (Greek: monogenes) is indeed applied to Jesus, and it can mean "unique" or "one of a kind." In John 1:18, the earliest manuscripts refer to Jesus as the "only begotten God" (monogenes theos), while others refer to Him as the "only begotten Son" (monogenes huios). The former emphasizes Jesus' unique divinity, while the latter underscores His unique sonship. Both expressions affirm that Jesus shares a unique relationship with the Father, distinct from all other beings, whether human or angelic.

"To be begotten implies and origin..."

Who said He is unbegotten? That's why you should read about what does Trinitarian theology actually teach:

"And [we believe] in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made..." (Nicene Creed)

"The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding." (Athanasian Creed)

"For the fact that the Son is of the Father is eternal and without beginning; and that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son is eternal and without beginning.” Whatever the Father is or has, He does not have from another, but from Himself; and He is the principle without principle. Whatever the Son is or has, He has from the Father, and is the principle from a principle..." (Council of Florence)

You reference Micah 5:2, interpreting "begotten" as implying a beginning or origin. However, a closer examination of Micah 5:2 reveals that the Messiah's origins are described as "from of old, from ancient times." The Hebrew word used here, olam, often refers to eternity or a time beyond human comprehension. This indicates that the Messiah's existence stretches back into eternity, not simply to a distant point in time. This suggests that the Messiah is eternal, aligning with the Christian understanding of Jesus as eternally existent with God the Father.

The term "begotten" does not necessarily imply that the Son had a beginning (in time). In the context of Trinitarian theology, "begotten" is understood as a relational term that describes the unique and eternal relationship between the Father and the Son. It indicates that the Son is of the same essence as the Father, not a created being. This is why the Nicene Creed, formulated in AD 325, explicitly states that Jesus is "begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father." This creed was developed precisely to counter the Arian heresy, which argued that the Son was a created being.

@Duran

"A trinitarian's 'folly' is in their claiming that Jehovah and Jesus are the same person/being, despite the many Scriptures that show that they are two separate persons/beings."

That's why you should first read up on what you want to attack, because it's a simple straw man. But of course you're not willing to do that, because "that's just philosophy" and blah blah blah...

"And the Catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost."

"...the Father is not Son or Holy Spirit, that Son is not Father or Holy Spirit; that Holy Spirit is not Father or Son; but Father alone is Father, Son alone is Son, Holy Spirit alone is Holy Spirit...." (Council of Florence)

Your argument seems to be rooted in a misunderstanding of the doctrine of the Trinity. The Trinity is not modalism (the belief that God merely manifests in different forms) but the belief in one God in three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These three persons share one divine essence but are distinct in their relationships and roles within the Godhead. The New Testament reveals this complex relationship through passages that affirm both the unity of God (monotheism) and the distinct personhood of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

You also work with 'a priori' preconceptions: you logically start from the assumption that God/YHWH only denotes the person of the Father, so if the singular speaks in the first person, as a person separate from him, to Jesus, this already proves that Jesus cannot be God. However, such usage is nothing more than WTS jargon.

When the WTS thinks of God, Jehovah, of course, it automatically thinks of the Father. It is true that the name of the God of Israel is Yahweh or Jehovah. It is also true that Jesus called the Father God and God his Father. But of this, the formula Jehovah / God = the Father is only logical for the Watchtower Society. The divine name Yahweh or Jehovah does not denote only one person, but the Godhead itself (theotes, Col 2:9), in whom three persons can be identified. The name of the second person is "the Son" (ho húios), his human name is "Jesus", and his mission is "Christ." The third person does have a name, since there is only one "Holy Spirit" in the Bible, so it is often simply "the Spirit" (to pneuma). Christians worship the same God with the same name (Jehovah / Yahweh) as Jehovah's Witnesses, they only claim that Jehovah God is more than Father: Son and Holy Spirit as well.

Talking about "Jesus and Jehovah" is a Watchtowerite, JW theological jargon, and of course can only be interpreted in this context.

In order to emphasize antitrinitarian teachings, the divine name YHWH is limited to God the Father only. This is why, for example, if a Christian says "Jesus is Jehovah", then the JW brain understands that "Jesus is the Father", which is obviously ridiculous not only for JWs, but for theologically correct Christianity. With the use of words such as "Jehovah and Jesus" also force their Arian theology, so that the antitrinitarian dogma is embedded in the JW even at the linguistic level. Cf. Newspeak.

But of course, if we expand the wording, it becomes understandable. We do not say, for example, that Jesus is "equal to Jehovah", but that the divine name YHWH is not the name of just one person, namely the Father, but rather the deity itself, in which three persons can be identified.

@slimboyfat

The JW interpretation of Micah 5:2 suggests that the "origins" of the Messiah from "ancient times" imply a beginning or creation. However, this is a misunderstanding of the Hebrew text and the broader theological context. The verse speaks of the Messiah’s "goings forth" being from "of old, from everlasting" (Hebrew: miyemey olam). The phrase "from of old, from everlasting" does not imply that the Messiah had a beginning in time. Instead, it emphasizes the Messiah’s eternal nature, rooted in the divine. The term "goings forth" (motsa'otav) here is better understood as "origins" in the sense of eternal existence rather than a temporal beginning. The text highlights the eternal existence of the Messiah, not His creation. This understanding aligns with other scriptural affirmations of Christ's eternal nature. For instance, John 1:1-3 clearly states that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word (Logos), identified as Christ, was not created; rather, He existed eternally with God and was the agent through whom all things were made.

Jehovah’s Witnesses often interpret the "begotten" passages to mean that Christ had a beginning in time, thus making Him a created being. However, this interpretation overlooks the theological nuance of "begotten" as used in Scripture. The concept that Jesus Christ could be a created being contradicts the New Testament’s consistent testimony of His divine, eternal nature. Christ is described as preexistent before all time (John 1:1-3) and as eternally begotten of the Father (Hebrews 1:5). To imply that Jesus had a beginning by an ex nihilo creative act in time introduces a theological inconsistency.

The phrase "begotten, not made" from the Nicene Creed captures a crucial theological distinction regarding Christ's nature. To "beget" means to generate something of the same essence. When we say Christ is "begotten," it means He is of the same divine essence as the Father, not a created being. "Begotten" signifies a unique relationship within the Godhead, where the Son is generated by the Father eternally, without implying a beginning in time.