Posts by Hoffnung

7

Any good explanations for 2 Chronicles 36:17-21?

by Knowsnothing in

from the niv:.

17 he brought up against them the king of the babylonians,[g] who killed their young men with the sword in the sanctuary, and did not spare young men or young women, the elderly or the infirm.

god gave them all into the hands of nebuchadnezzar.

Hoffnung

v.21 reads:

The land enjoyed its sabbath rests; all the time of its desolation it rested, until the seventy years were completed in fulfillment of the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah.

It is important to note that the 70 years are to be completed in fulfillment of the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah. It would not be correct to try to come to a conclusion about the meaning of this verse, without considering the words of Jeremiah. Where can we find this words of Jeremiah? They are in Jeremiah 25:11b, 12 (NWT): "11b and these nations (the list of "these nations" you find in v.17-26, demonstrating it was not just about Juda & Jerusalem) will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’ 12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘their error, even against the land of the Chal·de′ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite."

After a period of 70 years during which Juda and all the nations around Babylon had to serve the Babylonians, God would bring Babylon to its end. Historians and JW all agree that this happened in October 539 BC, an event well documented in Daniel 5. So the 70 years in 2 Chron 36:21, are 70 years for Babylon, and not for Jerusalem. The verse specifies that the end of the sabbath rest is determined by the end of the supremacy of Babylon. The end of the Sabbath rest of Jerusalem coincided with the end of Babylon, but the beginning of the Sabbath rest did not have to coincide with the beginning of the 70 years for Babylon. the sabbath rest started with another moment, the destruction of Jerusalem.

Historians found that the beginning of the period of servitude of the nations to Babylon, or in other words, Babylon's supremacy in the middle east, started in the 17th year of Nabopalassar, the father of Nebuchadnezar. The Supreme power of the middle east until then was Assyria. When Nabopalassar captured Haran, and defeated Assyrias last king Usharballit, Babylon became the supreme power in the middle east. This information you also find in "Insight on the Scriptures", under the heading "Assyria" (suprisingly not Babylon). The siege and capture of Haran is dated by historians to 609 BC. if we add to this 70 years, we end up exactly in 539 BC. Fullfilling exactly all the related prophecies.

Counting the king's years from the 17th year of Nabopalassar till the fall of babylon, will also give you exactly 70 years, confirming Jeremiah's words.

I hope this helps you further

Hoffnung

55

Read a story of child neglect and abuse among JWs in S. Africa that was sent to me.

by AndersonsInfo in

i regard the information below as true until proven false because of corresponding with a young man in s. africa for a few years whose story i posted on my website: http://www.watchtowerdocuments.com/stories/caleb.html, "freedom from an unsafe haven, by caleb.

" although some of the accounts of abuse of children in s. africa in the story below are older, calab wrote me details of abusive treatment meted out to young people in his area that he chose not to put in his story for fear he could be identified.

calab in now in university in another part of africa and very happy after breaking the chains that engulfed his mind.. barbara.

Hoffnung

I feel that Steve2 take on the issue is more balanced.

Doing house chores and maintenance on KH and bethels can become a slavery in extreme cases, but usually is not perceived as such. I guess we all had to the dishes and some cleaning job while still minors, and I do not think that is slavery. I assisted in building KH while younger than 18, and I loved it. I was volunteering. If somebody wants to have this classified as abuse, then I would expect some examples of exploitation, that demonstrate the abusive character, and unfortunately that is missing.

The same can be said about the TV and internet censorship. It is hard to find a balance in what is ok and what is over the top. To really call this abuse, I would expect some real life examples.

Notwithstanding this there is enough in the article that makes it worth reading, and it makes me disgust the society even more. The usual ways of elders to look the other side when there is a clear case of child abuse, silencing the victims and protecting the pedophiles for the sake of Gods name, and the blocking contact with disfellowshipped relatives, definitely has to be brought to the attention of the wider public. Thank you Barbara for postin.

Unfortunately every WT apologist will use to the weak points to discredit the rest of the article, which is a shame.

Hoffnung

16

Changed or Misprinted?

by iamwhoiam in

so..who here has examples of where the society printed something in a book or magazine...and then when a newer version of the book or bound volume came out...they changed what they wrote to cover up a mistake or to further a doctrinal change?.

Hoffnung

They had a rewritten edition of the "you can live forever in paradise on earth" book, the original was from 1982, and in 1989 they made a new edition with changes about the resurrection of the people of Sodom & Gomorrah

Hoffnung

12

Sloppy Scholarship and 3rd Rate Love (3/1 WT)

by metatron in

jw
friends

this watchtower is supposed to help people identify true christianity, relative to their cult standards (march 1, 2012).

of course, they use the name 'jehovah' as a club to fend off other claimants - why does it not surprize me that they self reference this silliness by quoting the new world translation and its wrongful insertion of 'jehovah' in romans 10: 13?

no logic here..... and for proof that christians used the name, they offer an unreferenced quote from jewish sources in regard to burning christian books.

Hoffnung

Romans 10:13 is a tricky one. In the Greek Manuscripts of this verse Jehovah or the tetragrammaton is not there. As the hebrew versions are translations of the greek text, that can not be used as a valid argument. If it is not in the original greek text, it is not in the hebrew translation of the same greek text either.

Unfortunately that is not all. In Romans 10:11, Paul writes: "For the Scripture says:..." , and verse 13 is clearly a quote from an old testament verse. Actually Romans 10 is full of OT verse quotes. In the original OT verse, the tetragrammaton is definitely there. The question is: did Paul use an OT verse and applied to Jesus? The context seems to confirm this (verses 5 to 10), the more so as until today, no greek text with Jehovah inserted in this verse could be found. But as it is also a OT quote, I prefer to leave it out of the debate and point to other more definite mistranslations, which are there in abundance. Just some 0,02$

Hoffnung

20

Wish I didnt know....Part 2 My Story

by Wishididntknow in

after a terrible break up and being away from the congregation for about 10yrs i started to think about coming back.

i couldnt even watch the news anymore because of the termendous anxiety it would cause.

i felt that there was a target on my back and the big a would surely come before i could get my act together.

Hoffnung

Just read both parts. wow. What a bumpy ride. I guess reading others people storys can help you. If you have the time, read Ray Franz 2 books, crisis of conscience and in search of christian freedom. they have a very balanced approach

Hoffnung

36

Help: Been Disfellowshipped for 6 Days

by weskerbouts in

six days ago, on the 24th, the announcement was made.

the prior 3 weeks were an 'interesting' time after having come forward about my sin (problem).

(i have an addiction to pornography.

Hoffnung

Hi Weskerbout,

Welcome, and sorry to read about your sorrow.

What you can do:

- Realize you just connected to a new set of friends. Keep on posting here how you feel and what you think. Some of us were once where you also are now. Many can relate to your feelings.

- Realize also that you mistook your elders for shepherds. You asked them for help, and they kicked you out in a cold dark world, sure you would be alone out there. They are no sheperds, they are powerfreaks, who got high on the ecstasy of ruining your personal life. (once you realize this, it easy enough to find out how you get reinstated, while hiding your true feelings for those hypocrites). I find it quite shocking they form a JC and disfellowship for viewing P, because many elders have problems with that themselves. I would imagine the could handle that without a JC. You were so honest to come for it, can't them bastards see that? Are you sure none of them had a kind of envy against you, and saw this as an excellent occasion to get rid of you? If you feel better in another church, why not. just do not replace one high-control religion with another one.

- Get enrolled in social activities, sports and alike, do not stay on your own. read the many experiences of others on this board, you will find indications for your way out. Now you took the big step to go search on the internet, do a lot of research.

- Do NOT write any letters in the next few months to the congregation. Please be aware you are emotionally unstable at the moment (absolutely normal), and you will regret any big decisions you take. If you want to be reinstated, you will have to play the most humble person in the universe for at least a year, going to most of the meetings with a colored study watchtower, being ignored by all.

- Enjoy your freedom, with moderation. Don't do shocking things, but go to concerts, theather, find a hobby, music instrument, drawing, etc...

Hang in there. You will make it.

Hoffnung

15

Regarding Acts 15 and a "Governing Body"

by Ding in

i couldn't find a window on which to post in xtreemlyconfused17's acts 15 thread, so i'm responding here.

some elder claimed that acts 15 shows the existence of a first century governing body.. quite the opposite!.

let's back up to acts 13. there, the holy spirit called saul (paul) and barnabas to missionary work.

Hoffnung

Most of the questions you ask are answered in a somewhat older thread:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/192766/1/Was-There-REALLY-a-First-Century-Governing-Body

To answer some of your questions directly:

1) Basically in the 1st century every congregation was its own little group without much oversight, just a local group of older men. Jesus never organized a religion. Paul was not a travelling overseer, but a missionary, ordained by Holy Spirit and not by men (as you wrote yourself - a contextual reading of how Paul was called to serve is telling - see 4+5).

2) No, he did not. Peter was used by Jesus to unlock christianity for Samaritans and the nations. also see answer 1.

3) yes, as described in answer 1)

4+5) Let us read the verses: "Now in Antioch there were prophets and teachers in the local congregation, Bar′na·bas as well as Sym′e·on who was called Ni′ger, and Lucius of Cy·re′ne, and Man′a·en who was educated with Herod the district ruler, and Saul. 2 As they were publicly ministering to Jehovah and fasting, the holy spirit said: “Of all persons set Bar′na·bas and Saul apart for me for the work to which I have called them."3 Then they fasted and prayed and laid their hands upon them and let them go.

The Holy spirit decided to send Barnabas and Saul, and the 3 others (Symeon, Lucius and Manaen) who were with them, let them go. They were not sent by the congregation, but by the Holy Spirit. Not much room for interpretation here. Furthermore, the words of the holy spirit was directed specifically to the 5 prophets and teachers. "They" clearly refers only to these 5, and not to the congregation.

The rest is answered well enough in other threads, as the one I mentioned above.

For the following sentence, you did not provide any basis: "So what we have described in Acts is a doctrinal dispute that is referred to a central body for a decision. Then the decision is conveyed to the believers who assemble in various congregations."

The truth is: the doctrinal dispute is referred to the local congregation from where the problem started.

Many scriptures in the bible indicate there was no central authority in the christian congregations. To be honest, if they were indeed individually guided by Holy Spirit, there was no need for extra guidance. Revelation 2 and 3 point out that Jesus is guiding the congregations. If there was a central body, would he not have said something about it, like: you are following their lead well? or alike, but he did not.

Nowadays, would you take your disputes to the next meeting of the governing body, and would tell them they are the originator of the problems in your congregation? That is exactly what you are saying that Paul and Barnabas did. Very unlikely.

Would you consider it normal to tell the pope off in front of others because he is not having lunch with non-catholics? Because that is what Paul did with Peter.

Some thoughts maybe worth your considerations.

Hoffnung

9

what do u think of ACTS 15?

by xtreemlyconfused17 in

(please pardon my english quotes from the bible.

i'm trying to translate from swahili, i cant find my english bible lol).

so i had my bible study yesterday and my teacher came with an elder.

Hoffnung

Hi XTREMELYCONFUSED,

Just posted this in another related thread from Ding, some points you might want to show the person you study with.

Some supporting details from Acts 15. If we would suppose Paul went to see the Governing Body of the that time, let us see who was part of that comite, and the ideas they fostered. Acts 15:5 reads: "Yet, some of those of the sect of the Pharisees that had believed rose up from their seats and said: “It is necessary to circumcise them and charge them to observe the law of Moses.”

So the socalled Governing Body had Pharisees amongst them that clearly propagated sectarian ideas...

Now maybe some smart cookie says: they were part of the congregation but not of the Governing Body, as the meeting started only in verse 6. Well, let us read what happened in that meeting, verse 6 reads: "And the apostles and the older men gathered together to see about this affair. 7 Now when much disputing had taken place..."

Clearly quite a big part of the apostles and older men had the same ideas as the Pharisees, otherwise there would not be such a dispute.

Do you like the idea to be part of an organization that is led by Pharisees from the very beginnings? If you don`t like the idea, maybe Acts 15 is not a great support for the Governing Body concept.

Just my 0,02$

Hoffnung

15

Regarding Acts 15 and a "Governing Body"

by Ding in

i couldn't find a window on which to post in xtreemlyconfused17's acts 15 thread, so i'm responding here.

some elder claimed that acts 15 shows the existence of a first century governing body.. quite the opposite!.

let's back up to acts 13. there, the holy spirit called saul (paul) and barnabas to missionary work.

Hoffnung

Some supporting details from Acts 15. If we would suppose Paul went to see the Governing Body of the that time, let us see who was part of that comite, and the ideas they fostered. Acts 15:5 reads: "Yet, some of those of the sect of the Pharisees that had believed rose up from their seats and said: “It is necessary to circumcise them and charge them to observe the law of Moses.”

So the socalled Governing Body had Pharisees amongst them that clearly propagated sectarian ideas...

Now maybe some smart cookie says: they were part of the congregation but not of the Governing Body, as the meeting started only in verse 6. Well, let us read what happened in that meeting, verse 6 reads: "And the apostles and the older men gathered together to see about this affair. 7 Now when much disputing had taken place..."

Clearly quite a big part of the apostles and older men had the same ideas as the Pharisees, otherwise there would not be such a dispute.

Do you like the idea to be part of an organization that is led by Pharisees from the very beginnings? If you don`t like the idea, maybe Acts 15 is not a great support for the Governing Body concept.

Just my 0,02$

Hoffnung

2

Our videos on WT 15.04.12 - page 12

by Motema Bolingo in

on our website "aggelia", see our new video.. versions available on 27th januari : french - english - dutch.

we hope to add german - italian - spanish.

http://www.aggelia.be/videos/tg0412_intro.html.

Hoffnung

Good job Jacques. There is a wealth of information on your site

Hoffnung