Dontplaceliterature: I am not an elder, never was, but I know for a fact that, yes, you can be disfellowshipped for expressing doubt about 1914 or other so called key doctrines. However, most BOE will only take you before a JC when you start promoting this to others in the congregations or other JWs and the news gets back to your congregation. Or it is used in combination with other things like meeting with DFed ones. There is a WT in 1986 about this subject. In theory just having a different idea and admitting as much is sufficient.
Hoffnung
JoinedPosts by Hoffnung
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Well, I just finished reading Crisis of Conscience thanks to IssacAustin!
by Botzwana ini couldn't put it down!
very informative.
i agreed with it all.
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Two Parallel Accounts
by snowbird inmatthew 24:45 -47"who here qualifies for the job of overseeing the kitchen?
a person the master can depend on to feed the workers on time each day.
someone the master can drop in on unannounced and always find him doing his job.
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Hoffnung
It was a fiction story, just like Santa Claus, but nobody told me this 'Santa Claus' is not a real person. So I believed it.
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I'm feeling disappointed now
by Nobleheart ini've been in this board for 2 months now, and have read and researched enough to know that what i thought was the one and only true religion isn't actually true.
finding out real facts has brought me severe disillusion and sadness.
as a jw i was taught that we were special in view of john 6:44 "no man can come to me unless the father, who sent me, draws him; and i will resurrect him in the last day.".
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Hoffnung
I would like to chime in with sd-7 and Pirata. You are in a transitional period where ideas change often. Burying your illusions is not easy. it was not easy for me either. I cannot say I have processed it all. There are days I feel I get a little bit closer to understand what it means to be christian, and other days feel like a big set back. As a born-in, reflexes and thoughts learned as a JW might remain my companion for life. I feel my social skills are seriously damaged due to my youth as a self righteous JW. I hope you have enjoyed a more balanced youth. When you have finished with Crisis of conscience you might have this question lingering, what do I do now, what to believe? Some keys to the answer you will find in the In Search for Christian Freedom Book. There exist no fitting-everybody answer. It is not in the nature of the belief system that Christ left behind. The bible is not intended to be a step-by-step rule text book. Religions have tried to make it look like it, and fell in the same trap as the Pharisees did. It makes feel heavy what should feel liberating. Unfortunately the Society has learned us to put faith in the organization and not in God, and definitely not in Jesus. When you lose your faith in the organization it can feel as your faith in God vanished as well, and maybe it did partially. Making these discoveries is like peeling an onion to find the heart, many layers have to be removed, and what remains can be rather small. When organized religion is not the guide of our thoughts any more, we become individual responsible for whatever our undertakings are, and that is both a liberating but also a sobering thought. It is you, God & Jesus. The basic ideas which Jesus taught and which Paul, Peter, James and others expanded are to be tried out. They are not difficult to find, Matt 7 gives you good idea. If one thing is showing from the scriptures, it is the need for a pure driving force, love for your neighbour and God, behind our actions. I discovered this can have a major impact on life. When you read the bible without the help of WT publications, and let only the context guide its understanding, you will be able to draw a list of requirements of what is christian and what is not. There is quite a big gap between these 2 extremes, leaving a lot of space for personal interpretation. Some help in this you can find in bible commentaries. There is a free Bible Study Aid program you can download with quite a few commentaries, and other books like the Antquities of Flavius Josephus, it is called e-sword ( www.e-sword.net) . It has helped me in my bible understanding. Personal circumstances, your desire to help others, possibilities to freely talk with your family members and friends about what you learn will influence your steps. Raymond Franz decided to meet regularly with others at home for bible discussions. Others joined another religion, which might be considered if you fear that having no 'congregation' would be detrimental for your faith in God. Others decided not be affiliated at all. others lost their faith in God. Whatever you do, it would be sad to do one of the 2 extremes,1) joining another mind-control religion like the witnesses (mormons, Scientology,...) 2) or fall into a debased life style because your moral guide is gone. Take your steps one at a time, look back, look forward, think about long term consequences. The choice of belief system is life-changing, not one to take light heartedly. Your experience as a Witness has proven this point. You will see, over a few weeks things will look different, and it will be even more different in a few months. This week I wished a lot of work colleagues a happy new year for the 1st time in my life, without a bad conscience, this was a very special experience for me. This would be unthinkable just a few months ago. Any way. I hope you let us all know how your journey is going and wish you well.
Hoffnung
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Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 01-02-11 WT Study (YOUNG GUIDED)
by blondie in(prov.
possible advice in his word, the bible.
do parents make rules?.
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Hoffnung
Paragraph 18 is very upsetting, because it:
- is inspiring fear and guilt in the youngsters hearts and minds, especially the note of "Grieving the Holy Spirit" due to some stupid youth mistake (YOU WILL BE DESTROYED AT THE BIG A, IF YOU DO NOT GO TO THE ELDERS IMMEDIATELY...). JW youth are brought under the spell of fear and guilt by articles like these. As every youth does quite a few of these "sins" (masturbation, watching violent or sexual content movie, listen to the wrong kind of music,...), and not confess, they will develop this negative image of being a bad (not good enough for God) person. This bad conscience will never ever go away any more.
- make it seem that the elders will always help you to get healed from your spritual weaknesses and forgive your sins if you go them. This picture is SO UNTRUE. The 1st thing elders consider if you go with them with a confession, is whether or not you will be kicked out and shunned or not because of your sin. You will not get some fatherly counsel or discipline, but you will be judged by a secret tribunal of 3 elders, with a 50% likelihood to be DF'ed.
As a born in, knowing all the consequences of going to the elders with a confession, my whole being was always rejecting the idea of confessing anything at all. That is the effect of paragraphs like these. Don't have yourself fooled, there exists no JW with a clear conscience. The whole set of doctrines of the WTBTS is designed to make JWs feel guilty and to let them do works of faith to lower this fear-and-guilt burden, but it will never be enough. That is exactly the same as what the Pharisees did and the opposite of what Jesus taught.
Paragraph 18:
What should you do if you have secretly been engaging in conduct that you know to be wrong? Remember, “he that is covering over his transgressions will not succeed, but he that is confessing and leaving them will be shown mercy.” (Prov. 28:13) How unwise it would be to continue in a wrong course and “be grieving God’s holy spirit”! (Eph. 4:30) You really owe it to God, to your parents, and to yourself to confess any wrongdoing. In this regard, “the older men of the congregation” can do a great deal for you. The disciple James says: “Let them pray over [the wrongdoer], greasing him with oil in the name of Jehovah. And
the prayer of faith will make the indisposed one well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, it will be forgiven him.” (Jas. 5:14, 15) Admittedly, this may result in some embarrassment and perhaps some unpleasant consequences. But if you have the courage to ask for help, you will spare yourself any further damage and will feel the relief that comes from regaining a clear conscience.—Ps. 32:1-5.
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WTBTS Elder & Ministerial Servant Problems
by JW GoneBad ini attended a recent ministerial servant k m school on the east coast and the main school instructor mentioned among other things (part entitled: 'objective of the km school course') that the total number of ministerial servants is seriously less than it should be.
in times past the ratio of m ss to elders was much more than it is today.. in the u.s. apparently the total number of elders is 88,500+ as opposed to m ss 65,000. the numbers show & numbers don't lie: the society is running out of spiritual men.
the instructor stated that this is a new downward trend that has (in so many words) the society worried.. the next speaker (part entitled: 'why we must be spiritual men') added that in his years as a traveling servant the pool of m ss has always been much, much larger than it is today.
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Hoffnung
JW Gone Bad: Thank you for sharing this. I turned in my "MS badge and gun" about 5 years ago, and I was the only MS in my congregation at the time. I was totally disgusted with how the elders treated the majority of the bros and sis, and they were backed up for it by the local Bethel. From all over Europe elders are complaining that there is nobody there to replace or to help them. All over the place, the elders are handling the microphones, something unseen just 10 years ago. Little wonder though, you have to do a maximum investment, you are in the spot light all the time, all your moves are under scrutiny of people whose only hobby is gossip and slander. The parts you can do on the meetings are sooooo booooring (how to present the mags of next month, please invite the audience to share their experience with applying the last crap suggestion of the FDS, etc...). Most feel it is a total waste of time and energy (honestly, it is). A few months ago a bro in our cong attended the wedding of his sister (JW) with a non-JW (he is a study though). He lost all his treasured privileges. I can tell you he is not interested in becoming a MS any more. It was the wedding of his OWN SISTER, for Christ's sake! If you hear firsthand stories like this, no wonder nobody wants to do take up the challenge any more.
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BOE LTR Dec 26, 2010 "Increased Activity April 2011"....Transcript....
by yknot inin an effort to increase the praise and honor to jehovah and jesus christ at the time of the memorial, the governing body has arranged for a special period of increased activity during april 2011.
you will be pleased to learn that during april 2011, publishers who wish to serve as auxiliary pioneers may indicate on the application whether they will be working toward a 30-hour or 50-hour requirement for the month.
this is a special arrangement for the month of april 2011 only.
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Hoffnung
Thank you Yknot. This is Great! The GB 2.0 must be extreeeemmlllyyyy desperate if they lower the standards so much. They are making a laughing stock of themselves. I still remember doing the 60 hours of aux pioneering in the baking summer heat. Imagine the gossip and nosing down of all those 50ers about the "weak 30ers". One big happy family, duhhhh? Soon 30 hours will be the rule for Aux pion. and 50 will be for pioneers. I can't wait to break the news in my congregation. This is just one big sign of an organization going down fast, unable to carry the load a 130 years of false doctrine, stupid but exhaustive rules and leaders without vision who can't turn it around. Add to this the lack of new MS to be groomed to elders (see the other thread from today), which is also very much the case in Europe by the way (THE number one worry of elders over here, got that confirmed from elders in Germany, France and Belgium).
2011 could not have started better then that! Happy new year to all of you!
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war in heaven vs christian testing
by diamondiiz ingentile times point to october 1914 according to wts.
so satan was cast down in october 194 while the signs of last says started around aug of 1914 because that's when ww1 began?
or did last days began in oct and ww1 had nothing to do with the last days?
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Hoffnung
Yep. For JWs it absolutely normal that 42 months are literal and 3,5 days mentioned in the next verse are symbolic. It is coming from the completely reliable GB, Gods chosen channel of communication. If that is not enough, what to think of the resolutions from 1920's conventions. An absolute fulfilling of pouring the bowls on the world, also written in revelation. Nobody here in Europe has ever heard from those. What were we stupid to believe this BS and all the rest on top of it.
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Vanderhoven7 - new heaven and new earth
by Hoffnung invander wrote the comment below in the thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/203055/14/are-they-really-that-bad.
as that thread was already very long, i thought to make it a seperate one to give him the opportunity to elaborate on the scriptural backing he can present for this.
vander wrote:.
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Hoffnung
Vander wrote the comment below in the thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/203055/14/Are-they-really-that-bad. As that thread was already very long, I thought to make it a seperate one to give him the opportunity to elaborate on the scriptural backing he can present for this. Vander wrote:
"I believe it can be shown that the Bible teaches that there will be a new heaven and new earth. Heaven, in the form of new Jerusalem, will eventually come down to earth and heavenly life will flow from that city to the nations that previously had not known God or His Christ.
Not only will the nations be subdued under the iron rule of Christ and His elect, but there will be discipline, loss as well as salvation and sins forgiven in this (millennial) age to come...forgiveness except, of course, for the sin against the Holy Spirit which involves a clear rejection of the Savior.
The wicked (those who have sinned against the Holy Spirit), will perish in the second death at the end of the mellennial reign.
Yes, paradise is heaven...and the elect will dwell in that heavenly city, but heaven and earth will be one.
I'd be glad to share what I see as scriptual backing for any aspect of the above.
Vander"
Although it is a very appealing picture of the future, I have my doubts that the new earth can be seen as the literal earth where we are living on now, the more as the source is a quote of Revelation 20-21, and Vander wrote about one month ago in another thread "I do agree that it is not wise to base doctrine solely on apocalyptic literature which is highly symbolic by nature. " (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/201876/3/Is-the-Soul-Immortal-Biblically-Speaking) As far as I know the only other place in the bible where this was repeated, is in 2 Pet 3, and this could be understood as a warning for the christians living in Judea for the soon to come events of 70CE, where the Judean society and the city of Jerusalem were brought to destruction. Further I would like to know what time frame is intended with "eventually", if possible.
Vander, I am looking forward to your comments, the platform is yours
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Elder knocks on my door... couldn't see who it was and I opened it...
by Soldier77 inso an elder came to my door the other day in field circus.
i looked through the peephole to see who it was, but the way the door is situated against the sky in the background i couldn't see anything but a silhouette.
not to mention he was standing off to the side so to make it hard for anyone to see who was knocking.. so i open the door thinking it was my friend since he is the only jw that knows where i live.
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Hoffnung
Thanks for sharing. Sometimes we forget that there are still some real shepherds hidden in between the wolves. I still feel for the poor flock, and it is good to know at least somebody cares. You reacted the correct way though. Nothing to win by returning and be eaten alive... once more ... by the less caring. Unfortunately the real shepherds are getting a rare species, they step down most of the time, totally exhausted of trying to repair what the other 5 or 6 messed up. What a waste of energy and time... Maybe we meet this guy on this board over a few years
Have a good day as well
Hoffnung
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Is it possible for the WT society to ever convince us of true reform?
by james_woods ini got to thinking about this and for me anyway, they would have to come clean on at least the following things:.
an honest retraction must be made on all the ridiculous chronology (of course including the false prophecies).
by this i mean, stop this psuedo numerology stuff of adding up this or that date, adding on x many years, etc.
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Hoffnung
They have done a lot of patch work, trying to repair the obvious cracks into their belief and organization system, so much that you can't see the original any more. But sadly that is all. they are not prepared or willing to go back to their basics and start from scratch. Everybody who was once JW and left, in order to keep some measure of faith in the bible had to start from scratch, as we were never taught the real basics. Every time they (the GB) were offered that opportunity they have turned it down. (Ray Franz, Carl Olof Jonsson, Ed Dunlap and many others tried and hit the wall). If they are not willing to start from scratch either, they will keep on patching and patching. What we are getting in the Watchtowers since Jaracz died, is not promising.