Posts by Retrovirus

100

These are good people

by Retrovirus in

in my introductory post i told about the jws that have been visiting me at my sil's request.

at first i spoke with them for her sake, then found i liked them anyway.

what i didn't like was the literature, especially the stuff trying to disprove evolution.

Retrovirus

Hi Debator,

You clearly do not like Dishonesty but you accept the claims on here that Witnesses are a cult without checking?

Can you please show me what I said to make you believe I did this?

As regards to Evolution verses Creation debate, this is a difficult subject since these are extremely opposing beliefs. Where both sides may make mistakes on what the other group believe and teach. I find it particularly hard with Evolution since it is ever-changing medium according to current understandings of it's processes

That's why it's best to discuss these issues based on facts. For instance, evolution is a well-based theory, not a medium. And yes, scientific theories change over time. (As do the beliefs of all the religions I know of) That's why I personally do not "believe" a current scientific understanding, but do accept that it best describes the known facts at the present.

I am a Jehovah Witness because I found the true God's truth in Jehovah's witnesses according to his word the Bible and I reject Evolution because makes a belief out of disbelief and scepticism of the created world around us

Evolution describes how creatures can adapt and change over time under the influence of natural selection. It does not "make" anything or cause scepticism. Many scientists, I even think the majority of scientists, have personal religious beliefs.

If, however, you know of any facts that should cause me to doubt that evolution (speciation) happens, please post them and I'm happy to discuss.

Retro

100

These are good people

by Retrovirus in

in my introductory post i told about the jws that have been visiting me at my sil's request.

at first i spoke with them for her sake, then found i liked them anyway.

what i didn't like was the literature, especially the stuff trying to disprove evolution.

Retrovirus

Dear Grace (Mouthy)

Thank you for sharing your story. You've given me the strongest reasons to persist with this.

I hope you've fully recovered from your fall.

Retro

100

These are good people

by Retrovirus in

in my introductory post i told about the jws that have been visiting me at my sil's request.

at first i spoke with them for her sake, then found i liked them anyway.

what i didn't like was the literature, especially the stuff trying to disprove evolution.

Retrovirus

Hi OTWO

Please report their response when you demonstrate the dishonesty of the WT literature. They will bend over backwards to defend it, regardless of what they read in the book. Their habits of quoting sources are awful. I was showed how the WT literature quoted something that sounded scholarly that seemed to agree with them. It turned out that their quote out of context was actually the scholarly source quoting the Watchtower itself and blasting it. The quote out of context just stuck with a small part. So Watchtower literature quoted a source quoting Watchtower literature

For weeks I tried to believe the literature was just cut-n-paste from creationist sites, but now it seems more deliberate than that. Quotes out of context are everywhere. That said, the latest brochure at least quotes sources, so perhaps some of the feedback is getting through.

Their response I think was learned. First insist that there's no problem, then ask the person to contact the Watchtower themselves. I say this because my SIL also did this; that's why I was ready for it. What was great was that when I challenged them, they actually tried to do some research. This may be because we've been talking for a while now and have some mutual respect - or that may be what they want me to believe. Who knows?

Given the responses so far, I'll keep going with this.

Retro

100

These are good people

by Retrovirus in

in my introductory post i told about the jws that have been visiting me at my sil's request.

at first i spoke with them for her sake, then found i liked them anyway.

what i didn't like was the literature, especially the stuff trying to disprove evolution.

Retrovirus

Thank you everyone for your replies. Nickolas and Outlaw, especially, have me worried! I had not thought I could be in any danger but do have a few emotional scars. LeavingWT, I can see that I need to educate myself about cults, and it's already clear that beliefs have more to do with wanting to fit in, belong, believe, than with logic.

It's also true, that these nice, honest people will kepp on trying to recruit others. if they succeed these people and their families will suffer. Hadn't thought of it that way. In my area (Vic, Australia) they are active in targeting migrant minorities who may be lonely.

The picture these born-in people paint of life in the WT is a happy, close and supportive family, yet the descriptions of congregational life I read here are very different. Could it be a "gentler" version here in Oz, or is this more spin (or dissonance)?

I'm very grateful for all I learn here.

Thank, Retro

100

These are good people

by Retrovirus in

in my introductory post i told about the jws that have been visiting me at my sil's request.

at first i spoke with them for her sake, then found i liked them anyway.

what i didn't like was the literature, especially the stuff trying to disprove evolution.

Retrovirus

In my introductory post I told about the JWs that have been visiting me at my SIL's request. At first I spoke with them for her sake, then found I liked them anyway. What I didn't like was the literature, especially the stuff trying to disprove evolution. When I showed them a clear example of well, carelessness at best but more likely dishonesty, they suggested I continue reading the booklet, so I quoted their scripture about not touching an unclean thing. Then they said if I had a problem I should write to the Watchtower about it, and I replied that if they were giving me the material as "the truth", they should own the problem if they couldn't support it. They said they would check, and disappeared for 2 months. I didn't expect to see them again.

This weekend they returned. They had tried to get the book in question through the library system (The neck of the giraffe), no luck, so have ordered it through Amazon. A brother in another city is helping them; apparently he has some concerns with the literature supporting reasoning with quotations. They asked my opinion about other tracts, and are going to read up about viruses (The literature was basing a case on the cell being the smallest unit of life).

They really are honest people, as I'd thought at first. But they are convinced that this research will result in me realising that their literature was right all along. They believe everything the Watchtower publishes implicitly. They are happy in that belief. The older lady has Parkinsons, and clings to her hope of being retored with a perfect body.

Am I doing the right thing in continuing with them? I know they were fine with trying to change my beliefs, but I don't have their certainty. I don't want to cause pain by winning my point.

I'd welcome your thoughts on this.

Retro

4

WT Study 11DEC2010 - Keep on seeking first His Righteosness

by Hoffnung in

some comments on paragraph extracts from the wt 15oct2010 pages 8 & 9, will be studied this week.. under the subheading :.

the danger of becoming self-righteous.

5. in writing to the christians in rome, the apostle paul highlighted a danger we all need to avoid if we are to be successful in seeking first gods righteousness.

Retrovirus

Thank you for a thought provoking post. I am beginning to see why the controlled "study" method is needed for jw's it's just "read and come to our conclusions, isn't it?

And I'm guessing the idea they are trying to convey is to equate self-righteousness with questioning or thinking. .

(Yes I know most of you are ahead of me but I'm learning as fast as I can )

60

I'm having a baby!

by AwSnap in

jw
friends

im just about at 14 weeks.

whooohooooo!

i thought i had the answers to all, until i got that "positive" on the pregnancy test.

Retrovirus

BIG CONGRATULATIONS, AwSnap!!

Get plenty of rest before baby arrives!

And don't worry about the guilt thing. I'd guess that the grandparents won't do anything that might limit their time with a grandchild.

My SIL is so excited with her new grandson (both parents worldly) she won't do a thing that could upset the apple cart.

You'll be a great Mum!

Retro

7

If you're a worldly and you are informed about the Watchtower

by dgp in

jw
friends

if i, as a non-witness, tried to tell my friends and family about what i have learned on this site and elsewhere about the watchtower, some would listen for a while, but the vast majority of them, if not all, would have trouble understanding why i should become and remain interested in such a subject at all.

many would tell me that everyone knows witnesses are crazy anyways, and that i surely could use my time on more productive endeavors.. .

it's very sad, but many people would tell me that witnesses are witnesses because they want to.

Retrovirus

Many would tell me that everyone knows witnesses are crazy anyways, and that I surely could use my time on more productive endeavors
That's what I've found. People cannot understand why I bothered to try to understand my ex-SIL and her religion.
We know the smug know-it-all arrogance of the JWs who come to the door. Perhaps this labelling, and the "it could never happen to me" attitude is the same arrogance in us wordlies.
Retro

27

Are JW's coached to be vague?

by InterestedOne in

jw
friends

i recently emailed my jw friend a couple of questions about jw beliefs, and she gave a generic, vague response that did not answer my questions.

are jw's coached to answer in vague terms?.

i have been attending the tm "school," and although i see the "demonstrations" teaching jw's to give misleading opening lines at the door and canned answers to questions, my friend's response was not exactly canned.

Retrovirus

Yes, @InterestedOne, I forgot that one, the Suffering Saint. My JWs would say proudly "well, we expect our faith to be tested in this wicked system of things". So I become one with Satan for asking a logical question.

Challenging indeed, and they certainly think that different rules apply to them, whether or not they are aware of it.

27

New to Site

by d in

i am new here i have posted only a couple of times.i still an nervous though.

i left the witness in 2008 and am still struggling with my belief syestem .although i am now reading richard dawkins the god delusion which by the way is a really good book i am already in chapter 2.so here i am new and unsure, if i should be on this site or not..

Retrovirus

Welcome from another newbie, D!

Should you be here? Who gets to tell you what you "should" do? Even the Bible says to examine all things.

Richard Dawkins writes some very interesting stuff. If it's a tad confrontational, follow up any of the biology or philosophy in textbooks or by Googling. Given your previous experience, you may also find material on independent thinking and logical fallacies useful.

Happy reading and learning!

Retro