thesits are fond of reminding us that science cannot prove there is no god, and in this they are correct.
however, science should not be dismissed so lightly by anybody who values a faith that is more than a mere fantasy.. theologians like john shelby spong have shown the intellectual honesty to embrace the truths that science has discovered and adapted their religious beliefs to take account of reality.
sadly many theists lack the courage to do likewise.
@Cofty,
Thanks, I did re-read your OP and agre with most of it.
But, right at the end but" it is necessary to allow reality to set the boundaries of your beliefs"
we part ways here. The present picture of the world that science shows us is certainly wonderful and exciting. Why cannot our beliefs be even more so?
Retro
thesits are fond of reminding us that science cannot prove there is no god, and in this they are correct.
however, science should not be dismissed so lightly by anybody who values a faith that is more than a mere fantasy.. theologians like john shelby spong have shown the intellectual honesty to embrace the truths that science has discovered and adapted their religious beliefs to take account of reality.
sadly many theists lack the courage to do likewise.
@Bohm
Reality is reality. Science try to describe reality
Perhaps you were trying to say "The scientific method formulates theories and tests them against reality."
You can try to ask if you ought to want to be right if you want to describe reality, but thats a personal question. I can pretend all that is virteous to believe is that the scientific method is bunk and I am a giant talking twinkie; I wont hear the booming voice of Einsten from the sky telling me that I ought not believe that. Honesty is a choice.
Once again, a bit hard to follow. To state my position: if a person has a faith that demonstrably supports them in their life, it is unlikely to contradict our observed reality, because that would cause cognitive dissonance and lead to stress.
A belief in things unseen that does not contradict what we see around us doesn't have to be less than honest.
Retro
thesits are fond of reminding us that science cannot prove there is no god, and in this they are correct.
however, science should not be dismissed so lightly by anybody who values a faith that is more than a mere fantasy.. theologians like john shelby spong have shown the intellectual honesty to embrace the truths that science has discovered and adapted their religious beliefs to take account of reality.
sadly many theists lack the courage to do likewise.
Hi Cofty
Theology that contradicts reality is doomed to disappoint you in the long term and requires you to live in willful ignorance. That is no way to live
Does a belief system that contributes to happiness need to contradict "reality"? Must we dogmatically call the current scientific understanding "reality"?
I spoke with an old lady of my religion in the nursing home a couple of years ago. Her life had included much suffering, losing a child and other relatives in the war. She also had a painful congential illness over most of her adult life. When I asked how she kept so serene she just said "He is always with me".
Sure, it's not "scientific". But the peace she felt was"real".
Retro
thesits are fond of reminding us that science cannot prove there is no god, and in this they are correct.
however, science should not be dismissed so lightly by anybody who values a faith that is more than a mere fantasy.. theologians like john shelby spong have shown the intellectual honesty to embrace the truths that science has discovered and adapted their religious beliefs to take account of reality.
sadly many theists lack the courage to do likewise.
Thesits are fond of reminding us that science cannot prove there is no god, and in this they are correct. However, science should not be dismissed so lightly by anybody who values a faith that is more than a mere fantasy.
As a Thesit if my faith enables me to live more happily and productively, isn't it already more than a "mere fantasy"?
Retro
church officials hushed up a child sex scandal in their ranks and refused to co-operate with police.. .
jehovah witness ministerial servant gordon leighton admitted sexually abusing a child when he was confronted by his church elders, a court heard.. but during the official police investigation, the 53-year-old who made headlines in the 1990s when wife yvonne, 28, died after refusing a blood transfusion after childbirth on religious grounds denied any illegal wrongdoing.. and when detectives asked elders simon preyser, harry logan and david scott to make statements about the confession, all three refused and said what they had heard was confidential.. for three years, the elders refused to co-operate with the criminal investigation and kept up that stance when the case was brought before newcastle crown court after the victim made a complaint to police.. each was issued with a witness summons which they fought to overturn before being ordered to testify by judge penny moreland citing public interest.. their barrister richard daniels said the men had a duty to god not to breach confidence.. he added: privileged communication between members of the congregation and ministers is an absolute right and duty and there is no power in law to breach such a confidence.. judge moreland said: it is apparent that the three elders who were present when this conversation took place are in possession of relevant evidence as to a point which is of real significance in this case.. they claim the right of confidentiality, they claim that what they heard said by the defendant during the course of that meeting ought to be subject to privilege, as ministers of religion.. judge moreland refused to withdraw the summonses and said: public interest is clearly in favour of this evidence being given.. what was said by the defendant on that occasion is of great significance in the trial.. despite the judges ruling, the men still refused to make statements to police until just hours before they were called before the jury.. leighton, who has since been expelled from the church at lambton kingdom hall in washington, denied two charges of indecency with a child and seven of indecent assault.. he was yesterday found guilty of two charges of indecency with a child and six of indecent assault.
he was found not guilty of one indecent assault charge, on the direction of the judge.. he was remanded in custody until he is sentenced next month but warned he is facing a lengthy spell behind bars.. prosecutor katherine dunn told the court the victim, who is now an adult, broke her silence in 2009.. the court heard how at a special church meeting, leighton admitted sexual abuse and made excuses for his behaviour.. miss dunn said: the elders conducted their own investigation.
Thanks for your reply, Prime.
Palliative care - a branch of medicine that involves physical contact with others.
I can understand this
Er. . .no. I'm a volunteer, not a health care professional. I drive clients, help clean, fetch and carry, sometimes just listen. And could come into contact with minors in the affected family.
So if the Brady Campaign (a campaign to end gun violence) launched a door-to-door campaign to assist in spreading their message, they could incur liability if someone exploited their campaign for illicit purposes
I thought this thread was about the moral imperative to keep children as safe as possible from known predators rather than liability. If ANY ORGANISATION launched a door to door campaign their operatives would be required to carry WWC cards here. The efforts of the wt to exempt themselves from this law are an embarrassment; search the Steplen Unthank threads for more if you wish.
but the only persons who go to irrational extremes to make others responsible for the crimes of another are people like you
Perhaps you could explain how I've done this?
Retro
church officials hushed up a child sex scandal in their ranks and refused to co-operate with police.. .
jehovah witness ministerial servant gordon leighton admitted sexually abusing a child when he was confronted by his church elders, a court heard.. but during the official police investigation, the 53-year-old who made headlines in the 1990s when wife yvonne, 28, died after refusing a blood transfusion after childbirth on religious grounds denied any illegal wrongdoing.. and when detectives asked elders simon preyser, harry logan and david scott to make statements about the confession, all three refused and said what they had heard was confidential.. for three years, the elders refused to co-operate with the criminal investigation and kept up that stance when the case was brought before newcastle crown court after the victim made a complaint to police.. each was issued with a witness summons which they fought to overturn before being ordered to testify by judge penny moreland citing public interest.. their barrister richard daniels said the men had a duty to god not to breach confidence.. he added: privileged communication between members of the congregation and ministers is an absolute right and duty and there is no power in law to breach such a confidence.. judge moreland said: it is apparent that the three elders who were present when this conversation took place are in possession of relevant evidence as to a point which is of real significance in this case.. they claim the right of confidentiality, they claim that what they heard said by the defendant during the course of that meeting ought to be subject to privilege, as ministers of religion.. judge moreland refused to withdraw the summonses and said: public interest is clearly in favour of this evidence being given.. what was said by the defendant on that occasion is of great significance in the trial.. despite the judges ruling, the men still refused to make statements to police until just hours before they were called before the jury.. leighton, who has since been expelled from the church at lambton kingdom hall in washington, denied two charges of indecency with a child and seven of indecent assault.. he was yesterday found guilty of two charges of indecency with a child and six of indecent assault.
he was found not guilty of one indecent assault charge, on the direction of the judge.. he was remanded in custody until he is sentenced next month but warned he is facing a lengthy spell behind bars.. prosecutor katherine dunn told the court the victim, who is now an adult, broke her silence in 2009.. the court heard how at a special church meeting, leighton admitted sexual abuse and made excuses for his behaviour.. miss dunn said: the elders conducted their own investigation.
The only organizations that screen volunteers and conduct criminal background checks associated with child protection are organizations that host activities where children are separated from their parents
Prime, that is simply not true. Here in Victoria, Australia, I volunteer for a palliative care service. I need and have a Working With Children card (getting this requires a police check) in case I come into contact with children as part of voluntary work. There is no question at all of children being separated from parents.
And yes, it's quite a practical arragement.
Quit fear mongering. If people can't even participate in a door-to-door preaching assignment without everyone submitting to background checks because society is overrun with child rapists, if things are that perilous, what a lawless crime-ridden, trash society we live in
Nonsense. As I've posted previously, door to door work is an excellent cover for a paedophile seeking new victims to groom.
The wt's position on this is outdated, dishonest and untenable, as is yours.
Retro
pedophiles knocking .
in a nutshell, it points out why the general public should be leery of jehovahs witnesses knocking at the front door.
my article is titled pedophiles knocking and is available at: http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com/2013/07/pedophiles-knocking.html.
Mary said
That's probably because Witnesses generally work with someone else when they're out in field serve-us, hence that would make molesting a child while knocking on doors very difficult
But if a child answers the door the paedophile knows where the child lives, and the time of day or week s/he is alone, and can return. Such a child is likely to be lonely and a great subject for "grooming". Even if an adult is present and there are children, the adult may not always be there, or may be induced to trust the paedo over time.
I am a single parent (kids are adults now) and there were times when my children were briefly alone in the house. They were well trained and never admitted adults even if they knew them, but a known molester going door to door makes me feel sick.
The "ministry" is a great cover for a paedophile seeking new victims. The wt is putting conversions ahead of public safety and this is beneath contempt.
Retro
"jws leaders need to mandate elder bodies to uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction; prohibit elders from being involved in any investigative process to decide guilt or innocence in place of the authorities; do away with the two-witness rule to determine, as if they were magistrates, guilt or innocence of someone accused; prohibit so-called repentant molesters from engaging in the door-to-door ministry, and always inform the congregation if a convicted or confessed molester is meeting with them.
" -barbara anderson .
this is another reason why the watchtower society doesn't require that the elders uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction.
It sounds like you're the conservative type (personal responsibility).
Once again, focussing on the messenger instead of addressing the issues.
Even the WTS notes that child abuse is under reported
Noting a problem to bemoan the sinfulness of Satan's world falls far short of contributing to its solution. Of course it's easier too.
From reading these posts, everyone is transparent except an elder. “Professionals applicable to child abuse reporting laws,” is to help things get reported. It's not to take the place of personal responsibility
Your problem with reading comprehension continues. No-one has said this. Many people in an evolved society have responsibilities (legal and moral) for helping minors and handicapped persons; these cannot be left entirely to the primary carers!
JW elders are not singled out here, nor do they or the wt merit a free pass.
Retro
"jws leaders need to mandate elder bodies to uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction; prohibit elders from being involved in any investigative process to decide guilt or innocence in place of the authorities; do away with the two-witness rule to determine, as if they were magistrates, guilt or innocence of someone accused; prohibit so-called repentant molesters from engaging in the door-to-door ministry, and always inform the congregation if a convicted or confessed molester is meeting with them.
" -barbara anderson .
this is another reason why the watchtower society doesn't require that the elders uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction.
Prime writes
I believe that every instance of abuse as well other crimes should be reported to the authorities whether it's the law or not. If you're a hearsay witness, you're potentially being used for something illegal.
I don't understand the last sentence. How can you be "used for something illegal" by reporting probable abuse or other crime to appropriate authorities?
Now, spreading such information to other, non-authorised persons or organisations - such as wt headquarters or legal department - that could lead to defamation procedures!
"jws leaders need to mandate elder bodies to uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction; prohibit elders from being involved in any investigative process to decide guilt or innocence in place of the authorities; do away with the two-witness rule to determine, as if they were magistrates, guilt or innocence of someone accused; prohibit so-called repentant molesters from engaging in the door-to-door ministry, and always inform the congregation if a convicted or confessed molester is meeting with them.
" -barbara anderson .
this is another reason why the watchtower society doesn't require that the elders uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction.
That's what I believe. That's why most JWs hardly ever come near places like this forum. Too much negativity and blind hatred
Nothing to do with being forbidden to, then?
Retro
