Retrovirus

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Posts by Retrovirus

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  2596

  The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

  by cofty in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

  we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

  they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

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  Retrovirus

  Loaded language much? Listening skills rather less?

  So this undefined being that you seem reluctant to call god

  Sigh. That's the point. IF THE BEING IS GREATER THAN ME HOW CAN I SAY WHAT IT IS?

  He/she/it can't or won't prevent the needless death of a quarter of a million innocent men, women and children.

  Sigh. That's the point. IF THE BEING IS GREATER THAN ME HOW CAN I ACCOUNT FOR ITS ACTIONS AND NON-ACTIONS?

  The day you asked him to do your sums, was it 26th December 2004 by any chance?

  Emotional rhetoric, always easier than addressing the point.
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  2596

  The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

  by cofty in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

  we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

  they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

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  Retrovirus

  It addresses the question if I am a theist, agreed? Perhaps we need to define "theist" more clearly.

  You just have a vague sense of feeling inspired sometimes

  Argh, no, please don't redefine without at least a question mark. I mean, I ask for advice and get it. Specific help, for example with maths problems when I was at Uni. It doesn't mean I don't use my own resources as far as possible.

  Is this source of guidance the creator and sustainer of the universe

  I don't know.

  Do you thank him for everyday events or petition him for help?

  I doubt it's a him, as there is an element of patience. Yes, I've said I ask for help when I need it. I give thanks for help and clarification and the wonder of being alive and supported, not for parking spots.

  Retro
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  2596

  The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

  by cofty in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

  we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

  they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

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  Retrovirus

  Sure, I'll try.

  I believe that I get guidance and support from something greater, outside myself. Whatever you want to call that "something". Study, prayer, and meditation all help me get this guidance.

  Given the helpfulness and creativity of the guidance, I believe that it comes from something with more wisdom and integrity than myself. Not hard to imagine, as I've met countless people wiser than I. So there are some wiser still and so on.

  But no more than an ant knows an elephant, I don't know if the source of this guidance and strength is bound by any restrictions, follows guidance of its own or whatever. What it could do, does or doesn't do, I cannot answer for. Infact, anyone who has faith in a higher being cannot account for that being, as by definition, it is higher.

  And just to make sure you don't get carried away - guidance is guidance, not compulsion. I don't always follow it. (and don't dare insert a crybaby here! :))My decisions are my own and I'm entirely accountable for them.

  Hope that helps, Retro
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  2596

  The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

  by cofty in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

  we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

  they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  Retrovirus

  Not quite Cofty,

  In the summary you kepp quoting you said

  It is about suffering that is not caused by humans and how theism accounts for it.

  I'm saying that "Theism" - not necessarily Christianity - CANNOT account for it and therefore CANNOT BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE for it. That addresses the whole summary, not just rebutting point 14. Hope that's clearer.

  As for Pelican yes he did blithely dismiss the suffering of the victims. He even added a crybaby emoticon

  And I'd thought it was a CRYING emoticon, meaning sadness. Not blithe.

  Retro
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  2596

  The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

  by cofty in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

  we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

  they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Retrovirus

  I'd reiterate: a believer in a God or power greater than himself , cannot by definition account for every action or non action of that being. Being unable to do so does NOT make the believer intellectually dishonest; quite the opposite. - Retro

  If you emphasise the word EVERY then I agree with you.

  I would stand by my accusation that blithely dismissing the pointless death of a quarter of a million innocent people with the excuse "its a mystery", is intellectual dishonesty.

  Hi Cofty,

  Why the need for emphasis on "Every"?

  The other is semantics. Of course, "it's a mystery" and "cannot account for" mean the same in this context. And PB never "blithely dismissed the pointless death of a quarter of a million innocent people"; those are YOUR words and spin.

  Retro
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  2596

  The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

  by cofty in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

  we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

  they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

  1. 
  2. 
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  Retrovirus

  Welcome, Vivane, hadn't relised you were a newbie!

  Agreed, presuming that believer were willing to admit that they don't know what their god does or doesn't do and why. Most are quite dogmatic about knowing that, so they don't get the luxury of a "get out jail free" card

  Especially true of jws, with that sort of kindly, condescending smile. They have all the answers. . .but they might be different next week

  I'm more familiar with more inclusive religions.

  cheers, Retro
• 
  2596

  The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

  by cofty in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

  we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

  they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Retrovirus

  Hi Viviane,

  From Cofty's summary post on p20

  I thought a summary might be helpful.

  The question is simple. It isn't an attempt to use suffering to prove there is no god. It isn't even about suffering in general.

  It is about suffering that is not caused by humans and how theism accounts for it.

  So it's not about the details of any person's belief.

  I'd reiterate: a believer in a God or power greater than himself , cannot by definition account for every action or non action of that being. Being unable to do so does NOT make the believer intellectually dishonest; quite the opposite.

  Retro
• 
  2596

  The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

  by cofty in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

  we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

  they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  Retrovirus

  cofty, for tomorrow morning, perhaps. ..

  .

  14. Its a mystery.

  Response - No response required. The intellectual dishonesty of faith is self-evident.

  I must respectfully disagree with this. Do I need to understand a "God" to have faith in her? Heck, I don't even understand my friends!
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  8

  An Interview with an Apostate: happy@last

  by happy@last in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  tell us a little about yourself and your family.. born in the 1970s in glasgow, currently married, 2 children in their early teens.

  were you a born in or a convert?.

  neither, my mother became a jw when i was 7, she was a single parent by this time having divorced my father.. are your parents / family jws?.

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  Retrovirus

  Welcome, Bethel Dark!
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  18

  How would you respond?

  by MsGrowingGirl20 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  ok so this is a conversation that i am having with a friend that i really love.

  i have some points that i want to say but tell me, how would you respond to this email?.

  not gonna try to defend anyone i can really only speak for myself.

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  Retrovirus

  Hi MsGG,

  I would say that if God is a wiser and more loving father than our earthly parents, I cannot imaging the He would condemn all his children to oblivion except one small group. A small group, moreover, that admitted to being led by "imperfect men" and issuing false alarms.

  Caveat - i'm a never-jw and so don't know how a jw would react to this.