Posts by saltyoldlady

4

Who Most Closely Resembles Ray Franz in Terms of Beliefs, Conclusions and Personality?

by headisspinning in

jw
friends

okay, so i am a born-in and as many of you know almost finished reading 'crisis of conscience'... .

it disturbs me greatly that ray has passed on because i would love to talk to him.. i guess, i am so used to following someone or something that i feel like i'm floundering... i don't know... i guess i really want someone to tell me 'the way'.. from ray's writing i would be more than happy to seriously examine the conclusions he came to and his own beliefs.. i just don't know which way to turn now.

from reading his book i greatly respect him and damnit... why did he have to leave?.

saltyoldlady

Headspinning - Continue on and read In Search of Christian Freedom - he gives you many of the answers there that you are seeking.

I also was fortunate to have gone through what you are prior to his death - back in 2006 for me and I have a few letters from him. For he and his wife (and she by the way is still with us so you may be able to write her - I have not) he found satisfaction in just holding a weekly bible study session in his home for a few other like-minded souls where they could pray, sing praises together, and engage in "real" Bible discussion. He was offered high level positions by more than one outfit or perhaps I should say "organized" religious group but he turned all of these down. He just focused his time in serving the Lord in the best way possible at any given moment and that will differ greatly for all of us because we have differing talents, experiences, and gifts.

As to another like-minded person to Ray I am excited to have discovered this week that Rheinhard Lengtadt is holding similar Bible discussions with a group of ex-jw's and per my source, he has now left the WTS. She used to attend his studies and when I expressed the fact I would LOVE doing that she promised to get in touch with him and take me up there. He has to be way up in years now because when I knew him before in the 80's he was older than myself and still within the fold giving oodles of talks. I remember his coming to Sequim my first time to ever meet him, and then we traveled all the way down to Lacey, Washington to hear another of his talks, about three hours away. He lived in the northend of Seattle back then. At that time I had not read any of Ray's books but I knew he was SPECIAL. Turns out he was one of the three that prepared the Aid to Bible Understanding. In the 80's witchhunt Ray, and Ed Dunlap were DF'd and Rheinhard was sent to the Pacific Northwest on a $600/Month stipend (so generous - and I am sarcastic with that comment). The WTS wanted some more research out of him that he was currently working on at that time I have been told and then they got rid of him, effectively, though he gave them no opportunity for DF'ing.

I am curious to learn what the current situation is and what has happened in the intervening years. I had another friend down in another congregation that kept constant contact with him and offered to take me for a visit at that time. She and her husband who had passed away by that time used to give him free room and board to help him in his ministry when they lived back in Minnesota I think and all of them were many years younger at least 40 years younger - she and her husband were just raising their family at that time so this was well before he was invited to Bethel. Sadly I never took her up on the offer because I knew I wanted to talk about the 607/1914 issue and that he wouldn't feel free to discuss that with her there in order to not stumble her. I had already made up my mind by then it was one HUGE error on the WTS's part. I realize this is too far away for you and your hubby to come but don't give up. I am sure you will find others of similar caliber in your own area. The numbers of spiritual minded people leaving are growing by leaps and bounds. Salty

45

Can I bring my own stuff to the memorial?

by outofthebox in

jw
friends

let's say i am an anointed one, but i don't like the taste of the crackers and wine the congregation got the last time.

can i bring my own wine and crackers to partake tonight?

yes or no?

saltyoldlady

Have to tell you a funny experience I had one time - they passed the bread but it was in BIG pieces. I thought oh help - if I take one then I will have to eat all of it and it will take me all night - plus it was the homemade type - tough as a board. Well I put the plate down on my lap - could see everybody looking at me with that "what is she going to do?" expression of alarm and horror - it was bad enough I dared to partake - now I go against all protocol and break the break for myself - and it was so tough I almost needed a sledge hammer to break it up - took both hands and a lot of muscle to get myself a small piece and there was no way I could chew it - I had to gum it to death until it finally softened - the wine doesn't get around for a long time after we get the bread so it didn't help much except to swallow the doughy wad eventually. The next year I convinced them to get the commercial kosher style wafers. Big improvement! LOL.

189

Does God speak to you? HOW?

by Quentin in

an answer to this question is subjective to the individual an a posteriori experiene.

however, can there be an a priori experence, one that is objective, outside the bounds of personel experiene, or does it remain subjective?

god speaks to me, through many venus, except audible.

saltyoldlady

PSac - Thank you for your sharing here - your experience was very moving and I appreciate it greatly. Salty

189

Does God speak to you? HOW?

by Quentin in

an answer to this question is subjective to the individual an a posteriori experiene.

however, can there be an a priori experence, one that is objective, outside the bounds of personel experiene, or does it remain subjective?

god speaks to me, through many venus, except audible.

saltyoldlady

Does God speak to me and if so how? Well, my personal experience is that He does speak to me - but in the same ways as many others have expressed - thru the beauties of creation, thru the playful antics of his creatures, thru the happiness of small children and sooner7nc - your experience brought tears of joy to my eyes as I imagined just how you must have felt. And there are just countless other ways He speaks to me too - sometimes I feel He is speaking to me thru the scriptures, sometimes He even reaches my heart thru some of you, believe it or not.

And no - I have never heard his audible voice myself - though the Bible obviously has many examples of when that has occurred. I do have friends - at least one that I can think of recently that said he heard God speaking to him - and he was surprised God had a "young voice" - he expected God to have a deep voice like Br Sydlik. Well I have never had an experience like that myself - think it was very real to him and I don't wish to pass judgment on whether it was God or not. That's not mine to wonder or worry about.

But I could share another experience in which I felt God "used me" to speak an answer to a Sister's problems. Maybe this doesn't qualify for inclusion here but I offer it anyway - as another possible way God speaks using our fellowmen. This sister has had many children in the past and had eclampsia nearly every time. It seemed her eclampsia was becoming more and more serious and she was pregnant once again - think this was the 11th child but not sure of the numbers. She prayed diligently to Jehovah for help. I had never met her before - she lived about two hours drive away from me but we each had a mutual friend in a local congregation here. The local friend suggested she should come and see me since I am involved or used to be involved in the healing arts. So she called me that evening. As the phone rang I had just set down the book The Doctor's Report by John Ellis and had just that very moment concluded reading chapter 7 on the subject eclampsia in pregnancy - its causes, effects and prevention - prior to that evening I had never even heard of the subject before. It was almost unbelievable to me that she should call on that subject at that time - conincidence - possibly - Vitamin B6 was the answer he gives. It may not work in every case but it works in many many cases and I couldn't help but think about sooner7nc above too just now. Anyway I told her about some of the bad effects - one of them mental retardation and she replied - yes, I know - my last child has that problem due to the eclampsia the doctors told her. So I suggested she get herself a copy of the book and talk to her doctor about the info in it. She was pregnant at the time - about in the 4th or 5th month. She began the recommended supplementation immediately and for the first time she produced a child without the eclampsia - coincidence again - possibly. But she was so happy and the whole congregation was so happy that all of them came to see me. That child is now an adult. She felt God had used me to answer her prayer - He knew just which of His servants had the information and the timing was incredible. It is a joy to be used that way. Subjective speculations - possibly. But I have had more than one experience of a similar vein even for myself in searching for information. This is one powerful way I feel God uses to communicate to us and give us joy at the same time.

18

I need some scriptual skill Here (what is the good news?)

by TheLoveDoctor in

please give me scriptures as to what the 1st century christians were two preach including the body of christian teachings at the time.

then we can compare that to what gb says the good news is and why one must answer 80 or so questions.

it will also help me with the ability to prove why i do not wish to be in the door to door work including any scriptual proofs that could be used to show not all should be preaching..

saltyoldlady

Great idea - I want to have this composite list myself.

For starters I will offer John 14:6 - Jesus said to him (Thomas) "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

I think this particular scripture nullifies the idea any one religious organization can call itself the "one true channel of God" - that true channel is Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is the "only" channel, period. Anyone that suggests that baptism into an organization that includes as one of its baptismal questions the obligation of loyalty to it is making a stab at becoming the mediator themselves and replacing Christ.

25

The Great Day Of Jehovah is Near!!

by wannabe in

{revelation 16:15}.

{matthew 24:7}.

the governing body of jehovah's witnesses will tell us that matthew 24:7 was fulfilled in the year 1914, but such could never be true.

saltyoldlady

Dear Wannabe - Have sent you a private memo. I enjoyed your first contribution on this thread and would like to discuss the subject with you in seriousness and depth without all the exposure to mockery and humorous jibes and quips of our dear friends. Salty

4

Date predictions, Mayans vs. Watchtower

by FatFreek 2005 in

.

cheers, len miller.

saltyoldlady

Marvelous - Wondering if maybe WTS are just 1,000 years off cause Mayan's started in 5126 but WTS goofed it and started in 4126 - always a bit out of date, you think? And now they realize they got the starting time wrong but they went the wrong direction by a hundred years. But ya know - those BC/AD dates get everyone confused. Guess they lost a ciper in there too but what's a few zero's - the prophet probably thought that added up to nothing - maybe they need a good statistician on their prophecy board? I tried volunteering but they wouldn't have me - think it was the gender thing and maybe it was my old age too! Think I'll file a discrimination suit.

69

I've figured out the cause of all the recent turmoil on JWN....

by Mr. Falcon in

jw
friends

ever since i've started posting here regularly, there has been upheaval, threats of leaving and threats of banning by many active contributors.

people have spoken their minds and have been chastised; people have attacked others and threads have been locked.. well, after reading my bible, i've determined the cause of all this.

mr. falcon.

saltyoldlady

I'm a tree-hugging creature lover - and that includes the creatures of the sea. I vote we not throw Mr. Falcon overboard cause the poor whale who might be appointed to rescue him might just get indigestion.

24

...Japan plans to Dump 11,500 tons of Radioactive Water at Sea...

by OUTLAW in

japan plans to dump 11,500 tons of radioactive water at sea.. .

pacific asian press.

tokyo: japan plans to dump 11,500 tons of radioactive water at sea to free up storage space for more highly contaminated water at its crippled nuclear plant, the plant's operator said on monday.. .

saltyoldlady

Seems to jog a line in my mind - And all the fish of the sea died!

51

State your "epiphany moment " for leaving the WT

by caliber in

jw
friends

i have found some powerful reinforcements when people have stated their " epiphany moment "... please share some.. my turning pointing began when i was badly hurt by a person i had always viewed as a literal brother.

i realized that if his.

love was conditional.... if it was the case with him , then how about those i had less affection for and trust in ?.

saltyoldlady

Wow - the suicide stories that Murray Smith and Was New Boy related really touched my heart. So very very tragic.

For myself I think I realized almost from the start that things were not what they purported to be - it actually took me a long time to come into the outfit - 3 different studies spaced years apart over a ten year period - so actually I was dragging my feet from the start but I so wanted to believe that this WAS God's organization. I appreciated much of what I was learning and actually increased in my love of the Bible but the personal results I observed just never seemed to match the fruits that were supposed to result from our study and "form" of religious devotion. I think I always knew there was something wrong - some missing ingredient but I kept looking for it. And I wasn't just judging others but I was aware for myself this form of worship wasn't bringing the joy that should have been there. I tried hard to do everything "just so" but that didn't prove to be the solution. I studied like crazy. I prayed and prayed intensely from the heart and kept asking Jehovah, why? why? why? Something is missing - what is it? What can I do better? I kept trying to do MORE increasing my time in the field service, improving my preparation for the meetings, trying to give the "perfect" talks, trying to be a "know it all" on every Bible topic. (Yes - I was a royal pain in the neck to be around in those days - LOL.) I worked hard on being loving - of course I eventually discovered it doesn't work like that. When we accept Jesus Christ's love for us we don't have to work at being loving - it just starts pouring thru us. We start radiating God's love, not our own. And the harder I tried not to be judgmental the more judgmental I seemed to become.

I think I could use the analogy here of my experience with music. I have studied both the violin and the piano - and am no great performer at either one, believe me. But one thing I have observed in both performing on a musical instrument and singing also - if I tried to execute a "perfect" performance I got up tight and nothing worked right. If I just steeped myself in the music itself letting it flood my soul with its expression it just flowed thru my fingers, bow or voice with ease. There is enjoyment and delight in just experiencing the music - trying to impress someone else with my skill DOES NOT work for me. It causes me to freeze up. At the doors trying to wow the householder with my knowledge of scriptures didn't give the desired results either but I put a lot of effort into that I hate to confess. But when I relaxed and just enjoyed the other person for themselves - tried to glean from them what they had to teach me about life - viola, I got Bible Studies. But if I tried to push them into my regimented objectives I lost them pronto. When I stepped away from WTS objectives and just let God do His thing with me I formed wonderful friendships and I GREW. But make WTS converts - nope, that didn't happen. I knew in my heart of hearts that wasn't going to be of any advantage to them and I couldn't paint the picture that was convincing - not even for myself. Instead I just kept learning more and more of why a person would do better to avoid this "straight jacket" of religiosity. I tried hard to be totally objective, honest and open-minded with all my students. And I saw people increase in their love for God, the Bible and Jesus Christ but not for WTS meetings or agenda's. That part was frustrating for me at first but I finally learned to just leave matters in God's Hands and He eventually rescued me in spite of myself. The ephiphany moment might have been discovering that Ray Franz was not "apostate" - that he really loved God and that he was an honest, humble, loving and kind human being being led by Jehovah's Holy Spirit. I discovered that on the internet reading a chapter of his book Crisis of Conscience - about 1914. It was an eye opener to realize he was a sane, rational, reasonable man - not a spiteful hater of Jehovah's people at all, simply a sincere searcher for truth. That was a WOW moment for me.

It still took me 4 years after that time to finally get completely out and the final straw was the WTS responding to my research with "wait on the FDS when per their definition I was part of that FDS." When I saw that they made no effort to address all the problems I had presented them but just said "WAIT" the switch clicked off - I ain't waitin no more for this outfit. 100 plus years is more than enough patience for them to see the light. They DON'T WANT to see the light. There were many other areas of error too but the chronology issue was so Black and White - not a matter of anyone's interpretation of scripture. Rather it was a deliberate attempt to avoid the straight forward scriptural presentation the Good Word gave us and I wasn't the first to bring this to their attention in a painstaking and detailed manner. So from that point on it was a quick "good-bye" brothers - short and sweet.