Posts by saltyoldlady

12

Your favorite Chapter from 'Crisis of Conscience?'

by Joliette in

jw
friends

i would have to say that my favorite chapters are 'points of decision' and the 'aftermath' chapter.. what about yours?.

saltyoldlady

My favorite chapter was also the one on Malawi because I remember how intensely my sorrow was when that terrible persecution began - and then to learn that it wasn't even a political system with two parties - but only one party - period - that it was not really a political involvement at all to sign the card - just another tax from the government and a request for obedience to the laws of the land. Scripturally it could have been complied with - my take on the situation at the GB was probably they heard the word "Party Card" and just triggered - oh that is political involvement. No don't sign it - without of course much thought as to what might happen if they didn't. I am sure the members of the GB never even entertained the terrible results that might occur.

But have to relay some humorous comments (or maybe not so humorous - depends on one's point of view) that happened in my exit interview upon DA'ing from the congregation. They were of course interested in digging into my reasons so I shared this material from that chapter of Crisis of Conscience. The PO had started to read the book he confessed when he was of course much younger but never completed it. But he is a "black" brother - and one I always loved as a person exceptionally warm and large-hearted - I am white and had never felt any racial prejudice on his part before but this night it slipped out - he said there was no way those brothers in Malawi put their lives on the line because of some white dudes (exact terminology used) sitting in New York. He was willing to personally fly me over there to talk with them if it would make a difference to me (of course he was just talking big here - I understood that - he would not have been able to follow through had I taken him up on it) but he just knew that Ray Franz "take" on the matter was wrong.

Anyway that was an eye-opener to me that the few token white people in this congregation were just something he had to put up with - condescend to - it saddened me. I have always felt intensely the stigma and prejudice they have suffered and have admired them for their marvelous abilities to overcome the hardships put upon them. It has always seemed to me that the black brothers and sisters I have known are some of the most intelligent and competent individuals in the congregation, and I suspect it is because they have had to strive ever so much harder to achieve success in this system prevailing today.

382

The Gentile Times Reconsidered

by Spade in

disproving the date 1914 as a significant year in bible prophecy is of great importance to some (e.g.

carl o. jonsson).

along with the meticulous details of bible and secular chronology, broadening one's horizons when assessing exactly what this date represents when compared against the 6000 years of human history likewise has merit.

saltyoldlady

For those of you who think a female unlikely to be a Bible chronology buff I'm here to tell you that is NOT SO!!!! But I did offer to show Spade (Alice) a method of verifying the date of destruction of Jerusalem primarily from the Bible (think I used the word strictly but that was not a good choice.) Alice made zilch replies to that offer so my conclusion was she/he is not genuinely interested. Few are - they have been discouraged by WTS prophetic disappointments.

But for some fun on the subject here goes - 12 easy lessons on Bible Chronology - nothing cast in stone though - just for your consideration and my fun speculation

Lesson 1 - I begin with 4130 BC (or BCE - whichever you prefer) - the older brothers began with 4126.5? Interesting Mayan Calendar begins the current cycle with 5126.5 I think - current WTS begins with 4026 - don't know that we need to keep on with the and 1/2 anymore - we'll clean up that matter when we get done to Christ's birth. But my reasons for settling on 4130 were in part because I love messing with numbers and it just seems to me Jesus should have been born on a number divisible by 7 - of course God is better at fractions than I so He is not constrained to that sort of reasoning. And you can start wherever you like - the proof will be in the whole outlay.

I was simply trying to see if I could establish a line of reasoning from the Scriptures themselves without getting involved with men's opinions - did Jehovah leave us a trail to identify this date? There are a couple gaps in the line of figures but see if you like my methods of reconciliation? It seems to me that the Bible does indeed sparkle with truth to be obtained on this subject.

We begin the numbers journey in Genesis Chapter 5 - simple addition of the figures given for history there brings us to a total of 1656 years before the flood. Have never seen anyone debate that subject - it is just there - laid out for us. If we begin with 4130 BC that brings us to 2474 BC as the date for the flood - if we begin with 4126 BC we arrive at 2470 BC for the flood - think that date will be familiar to any old timers who were in WTS before the arbitrary shaving off of 100 years from the beginning which as we proceed will be seen to be very short-sighted on Freddie's part. I was in search of "why" he did that. Lesson 2 will pick up with the date of the flood.

Fred Franz's reasons for shaving off the 100 years from the beginning will be addressed clearly and concisely - his logic easy to see but you will need reference to Benjamin Wilson's Diaglot, footnote to I Kings 6:1 - we will address this item later - but it is a passage that has produced many problems for chronologists including the WTS.

16

1943-44 Milton Henschel Historical Documents

by Marvin Shilmer in

jw
friends

1943-44 milton henschel historical documents.

today i uploaded some historical documents that researchers might find helpful.

these documents show milton henschel at 23 years of age.

saltyoldlady

Wow - I clicked on the party card for Malawi and enlarged it so it was easy to read - amazing, just amazing that all those brothers and sisters had to suffer like they did because WTS decided it couldn't be signed. It was one of the most reasonable documents for a government to issue I have ever seen. Establishes Franz's comments totally. A small pledge requiring one to obey the laws of the land in essence - should never have become a conscience issue at all.

Thank you so much for this post and I shall enjoy looking over even more items in my leisure - it is a treasure house. Thank you again.

382

The Gentile Times Reconsidered

by Spade in

disproving the date 1914 as a significant year in bible prophecy is of great importance to some (e.g.

carl o. jonsson).

along with the meticulous details of bible and secular chronology, broadening one's horizons when assessing exactly what this date represents when compared against the 6000 years of human history likewise has merit.

saltyoldlady

Dear Spade - I think your name is very appropriate. He who excavates a pit will fall right into it and I think you done dug your grave. Shall we cover you up?

36

Assembly changes

by d in

i was wondering what changes have you seen with assemblies now.compared to assemblies in the 1950's..

saltyoldlady

I didn't get started going to assemblies until the 60's so I never experienced those long ones - can't even imagine it - usually by 5PM these days we were all worn out (from just sitting - LOL) and by the end of three days we'd HAD IT. Many of us older ones would divide it up going just one day at a time to each convention scheduled. I suspect the brothers will cut it down from 3 days for the District Convention to just 2 days sometime in the near future - would save tons of money - and they could call it being "lovingly kind and considerate" to all those poor bored souls.

But what I remember from the older ones conversations that went to the really BIG assemblies like 1958 were the enthusiasm - it was a once in a lifetime experience for them that they still reveled in 50 years later. It was truly special to them. Can you imagine anyone getting that psyched up today about an assembly or convention they attended?

And another thing that I have observed and wondered if others have too - have you ever tried counting how many of those who participated in the special experiences interviews ended up out of the organization later? One would think they would be the last to leave - they were special - singled out for sharing their encouragement with the big crowds - but again and again I have seen these same ones either getting DF'd, DA'd, or just mysteriously evaporating into space, probably quietly faded. In later years too the experiences began to include those that were only current Bible Studies - not even a requirement that they eventually got baptized or came into the organization. I remember at one Circuit Assembly when they featured an experience from my own congregation - knowing the whole story I couldn't help but wonder - wow, if they think that is special we are in big trouble. Now if one just finds someone who agrees to study it is considered an experience worth featuring at an assembly. This is pathetic.

382

The Gentile Times Reconsidered

by Spade in

disproving the date 1914 as a significant year in bible prophecy is of great importance to some (e.g.

carl o. jonsson).

along with the meticulous details of bible and secular chronology, broadening one's horizons when assessing exactly what this date represents when compared against the 6000 years of human history likewise has merit.

saltyoldlady

Spade - What led me out of the WTS was this very investigation. I decided to let the Bible give me the answer and dispense with anyone else (though I love C.O. Jonnson's book frankly) but the Bible alone proves 587 - not 607. If you would like to pursue that with me I'd be delighted but I will start a new thread on Bible Chronology itself -

In the meantime all the pictorial proofs from the library in this thread are going into my favorites section - I love them.

72

How were Rutherford's Cadillacs purchased?

by InterestedOne in

i mentioned rutherford's cadillacs to my study conductor, and he said maybe rutherford was able to purchase them because he was independently wealthy.

were they purchased from his own personal wealth or with the wt funds?.

saltyoldlady

Hey Farkel - I admit it - I am lazy. Too many years being part of the WTS - does that sound like a good excuse? LOL. And I realized after I had posted that reply that probably the archives are indexed per subject matter. I will do some exploring and poking around - even for me to be using the Internet is a big new experience and there is LOTS I have yet to learn about how to negotiate my way around - even to use all those little boxes above my screen here - most of it is like a foreign language to me.

Sorry about the COPD - I know firsthand what that is like because I myself battle it. But I haven't accepted it as a death sentence yet.........When I find the miracle cure I'll let you know - in the meantime we just keep trusting in the Lord, one day at a time, sometimes an hour or a minute at a time. Came near to going to ER room last night but decided - aw heck - they would just keep me waiting for hours in a cold reception room - I've been through that one many times before - think I'll just die at home warm and comfy in my own bed (not truly so comfy when one can't breathe) but guess what - I managed to keep chugging - Jehovah has given me one more day to live. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

81

A roaring current of change.... Is The Watchtower in the process of a major overhaul of their religion?

by koolaid-man in

jw
friends

a roaring current of change..... what is going on at the world headquarters of jehovah's witnesses?

in the last couple of years unprecedented changes in policy, procedure, and doctrine have been coming forth in rapid fire sequence.

this uninterrupted episode of new information is beginning to backfire for the rank and file witnesses.

saltyoldlady

Won't Leave - Amen to all of your comments. Your experiences are so similar to mine. The boredom at the meetings and the inability to even perceive what is going on around them - I too tried to reason with a few friends before I left but their eyes would just get that "glazed over" look - she's talking apostasy - don't listen attitude. It was so frustrating. And while I can't say I was ever successful at starting studies with "intelligent" ones like yourself - at least very very rarely - I got so sick of going out on return visits to Charlie calls - people they had been calling on for decades in some cases - people who were never truly interested but just enjoyed the chit chat. And so rarely was the conversation ever on a spiritual level either at the Charlie call or even within the car group. There's a subject for a whole nother day.

The dumbing down of the literature is so real - try reading one of the early issues from the 1880's and then matching it to today's study about Singing at the Meetings. Heaven help us! It's no wonder the Spirit is gone - there is no food today, nothing to chew and digest anymore. And of course any exchange about spiritual gems you just discovered reading a particular scripture - that doesn't happen - you just get glanced askance at or the eyebrows go up and they ask what WT that came out of - page and paragraph number please.

And the mortification and cringing you are currently going through - I remember that stage so well. It finally got so bad I just walked out the doors never to return and never to regret my move. But I was blessed with the freedom to do so because I had no family left in - just a multitude of dear friendships forged over 20 and 30 years that can never be duplicated now unless I live to be 100. But Jehovah has sustained me with much joy even so. I too noticed how the hand clapping always seemed so perfunctory and never bore any relationship to the caliber of the talk, delivery or material presented. It was much like tipping a waitress at the restaurant - just something mandatory, ill manners if you didn't. I will be praying for you - enduring under those circumstances is never easy.

72

How were Rutherford's Cadillacs purchased?

by InterestedOne in

i mentioned rutherford's cadillacs to my study conductor, and he said maybe rutherford was able to purchase them because he was independently wealthy.

were they purchased from his own personal wealth or with the wt funds?.

saltyoldlady

Farkel - I can read but first I would have to find my reading glasses and sometimes I just can't find them because they cannot be seen when sitting on the top of my head. Read the archives you say - Good Lord, man - do you think I have another 76 years of life left in me to sit around reading the mountain of archives here? And if the money came through the Boyd family assets and the Boyd family married into the Heath family - there is still a connection there. But I am satisfied with your conclusion that the money came from the Heath family - it doesn't really matter where it came from - what matters was that it was a terrible waste of funds that could and should have been used for the King's work.

And re my "leap of logic" - man makes money from Coca Cola and man uses that money for WTS - no lack of logic there - thus Coca Cola helped support the WTS even tho unintentionally. The logic leap my dear boy was your own - you assumed that the reason I suggested Coca Cola was one of the devil's inventions was that it helped support the WTS. Sorry I led you to that inference because that thought never even entered my brain (or lack of brain as you assume) but my reason for calling it one of the devil's inventions was solely based on its physiological effects upon human body chemistry. Now do you want to wrangle with me on that subject? Save it for a different thread.

But no I have never tried cocaine myself - have had many Bible Studies with those who were users and it is ever so heartbreaking to watch what the addiction does to one's life. AS far as there not being enough cocaine to get a one-celled organism high there was enough to help the designer of the formula to deal with his dependency problems so where is your logic, dear brother? Perhaps you have never studied the subject of homeopathy - it doesn't take a "whole lot" to have amazing effects.

Loving your directness - blessings upon you, your ever lovin grandma.

50

Don't you DARE to get up!!

by stillin9 in

interesting points from this week's wt study (dec 15 2010 study edition):.

par 12: "do i encourage my children not to view the song between the theocratic ministry school and the service meeting or the one between the public talk and the watchtower study as a sort of intermission,an opportunity for them to leave their seats unnecessarily, perhaps just to stretch their legs?".

why do they have to make such a big deal out of everything?

saltyoldlady

Way back when.......I remember the days when we had a break between the Public Talk and the WTS - it actually was very nice - people stood up - talked to one another - circled around the hall and met newcomers, welcomed one another, caught up on each other's lives - then we were ready to sit for another hour - all happy and interested. Everybody sang the songs - mothers and children were not accused of showing irreverence for taking their children to the restrooms because ample time was provided. The removal of that break was to me one of the first negative "improvements" being made - maybe the beginning of today's rapid fire changes. I had the feeling then the change was made because they witnessed too many leaving after the Public Talk and not staying on for the WT study. It occurred to me then and I was very new at the time that pressure tactics were being used. The fact that one could leave quietly after the Public Talk was a good thing - especially if we brought a new Bible Student who just wasn't ready for WT Study idea yet.

And re singing the songs I was constantly amazed at how many did know the songs by heart - riding the bus to the convention as a group it seemed to me almost everyone could sing most of the popular tunes by heart - all FOUR stanzas too - and the group I was with were great at harmonizing - no professional recordings needed. I never was one of those so not blowing my own horn here. But being able to sing in a prison camp would be very strengthening - witness Paul's resorting to that. Of course these also were the days when we had a "live" pianist at the hall - the loss of that took something out of the meeting too as I remember. Standardization - yes - more professional maybe - though we had some pretty good musicians in this area. And the local orchestra group that met to prepare for conventions was a beautiful socialization activity that was removed by the standardization. That change brought a sadness of heart to those few also.

Get an old person started and they never shut up - LOL - but have to relay another funny experience I remember also - in one Kingdom Hall I attended for a few years out in the boondocks our water was supplied by our own private well. In the mid summer it dried up. So guess what - no one had to make bathroom breaks, no one ever had an inconvenience due to that, that I remember, and all the children remained in their seats with us for the whole two hours. That was usually the case for about two months - July and August. Also we didn't have to clean up the restrooms those months - Hurray! And yes we did have an outhouse out back but I don't recall anyone ever using it. If someone did you knew it was a REAL emergency.