first time poster here but i've been lurking a while.. i have a question that i was hoping some of the watchtower historians might be able to answer.
if a witness was willing to read some of the organisation's older publications, what books would you get them to read and how do i get these books?.
my family are witnesses and my father is an elder.
Thanks for all the links, I've printed some of it out already.
I'm in Christmas eating/drinking mode for the next couple of days so I'll give this stuff a closer read in a couple of days time.
Would you suggest that I highlight or underline some of the more crazy stuff before giving it to my Dad to read?
Good news - I just installed Google Chrome and its got a spell checker so hopefully less typos in my future posts! :)
first time poster here but i've been lurking a while.. i have a question that i was hoping some of the watchtower historians might be able to answer.
if a witness was willing to read some of the organisation's older publications, what books would you get them to read and how do i get these books?.
my family are witnesses and my father is an elder.
Cabasilas,
I didnt realise Strictlygenteel.co.uk was run by a JW. I used that site for some of my reasearch into the Blue creation book and the Vailian ring/canopy. I assumed it was 'apostate' - I hate using that word. I had some time earlier to check out some of those links you posted - great stuff! I have printed out some of them.
Diamondiz, Thanks - Kingdom Come sounds like am after too. Do you have any links to PDFs?
Is this stuff out of copyright because of its age?
Do you think any Witnesses find it suspicious they are getting rid of older publications in their Libraries? Do all Kingdom Halls have libraries? I have never noticed a Library before.
first time poster here but i've been lurking a while.. i have a question that i was hoping some of the watchtower historians might be able to answer.
if a witness was willing to read some of the organisation's older publications, what books would you get them to read and how do i get these books?.
my family are witnesses and my father is an elder.
Heaven, I've heard Steve Hassan's book, seems to get quite a few mentions on here - it's been on my radar for a little while. I know it reccommends not getting into a debate with a cult member but rather dropping subtle comments now and again to get them to think for themselves. If you criticise the cult at all they put up their defences.
One point I have pushed my dad on, and not let him side-step, was the definition of 'yohm' in Genesis. My question was 'What context of 'yohm' in Genesis requires that is cross referenced with a figurative meaning rather than literal meaning (its primary useage).
I even wrote the question down on papaer because the next day he just gave me a Watchtower magazine that loosely covered
the subject but did not actually answer my question. I am fairly sure that the cross references they use are arbritrary and if so he will not be able to find me an answer. I think his answer may be that the men in Brooklyn are 'spirit guided' he intimated as much before but I think he knows
that is a weak answer because he seemed reluctant to come out and say it.
If he is unable to find an answer and discovers for himself that the cross references are arbritrary will this make him see a major flaw in Watchtower's methodology?
I know should be able to just accept that it's his religion and let him get on with it but it has done real damage to the family and to be honest, since he's become an 'Elder', I have been uncomfortable with the fact that he takes part in practices I deeply disagree with (Judicial Committees etc)
I think sometimes I'm the one with the problem then, at a funeral a couple of weeks ago he tells me loudly (so others could hear) that the priest was wrong and 'taking scripture' out of context - then I think, nah he's the one with the problem.
hmmm, Daddy issues. :)
first time poster here but i've been lurking a while.. i have a question that i was hoping some of the watchtower historians might be able to answer.
if a witness was willing to read some of the organisation's older publications, what books would you get them to read and how do i get these books?.
my family are witnesses and my father is an elder.
Hi Wasblind,
I've casually brought up the new generations thing.
Funnily enough, I didnt even bring up 'new light' or mention that some old teachings were wrong - he brought it up himself when he was talking about Christmas.
He said something along the lines of 'Jehovah's witnesses are imperfect humans so sometimes make mistakes, you know we used to celebrate Christmas - some people say that proves us wrong but we arent afraid to admit past mistakes - the truth grows brighter' (or something like that)
I thought celebrating christmas was a relatviely trivial example of 'old light' so I replied 'yes, much like the new overlapping Generations teaching' - which is of course a much more fundamental doctrinal change. I don't think he liked that very much and the fact that I knew about it made him a bit suspicious (I told him my Witness friend told me about it)
So, yeah I'm kind of hoping if he reads some of the old publications about pyramidology, Christ's return in 1874, Armagheddon in 1914/5, 1925 etc that maybe some little spark of independant thought might ignite.
How many Witnesses are aware of this stuff? I get the impression he knows relatively little about the organisations history.
first time poster here but i've been lurking a while.. i have a question that i was hoping some of the watchtower historians might be able to answer.
if a witness was willing to read some of the organisation's older publications, what books would you get them to read and how do i get these books?.
my family are witnesses and my father is an elder.
Sorry for the long post.
Thanks for all the suggestions. All really useful.
Sharpie, I definitely agree. I'm surprised at just how superficial and specious some of their arguements are, but you can't anywhere by pointing this out to them. I think you just have to plant the seeds of doubt.
"If I follow everything that the Bible students wrote under Russel, I'd be a apostate today" is a good question but assumes the Witness you are talking to is familiar with Russell's teachings.
first time poster here but i've been lurking a while.. i have a question that i was hoping some of the watchtower historians might be able to answer.
if a witness was willing to read some of the organisation's older publications, what books would you get them to read and how do i get these books?.
my family are witnesses and my father is an elder.
I don't to be one of those annoying new memebers who start loads of threads so I'll keep this in here. Not much point with thise post other than sharing my thoughts.
My father and I have not discussed religion for a couple of years because I've been living overseas. In the past, to be honest, whenever we have spoken about relgiion he always got the better of me. However, in the last couple of years I've been doing a bit of reading (crises of Conscience, Alan Feubacher, and some of these forums). Any way, my dad and I were talking about religion a few days ago and I couldnt believe I had a better grasp of some topics than he did.
I tried to pin him down on who exactly would die in Armagheddon, he admitted that most 'worldly' people would die and that if Armagheddon were to happen tomorrow then I would die too. He seemed to think this was okay and a non-issue though because Armagheddon won't happen tomorrow and so I could potentially become a witness, and be 'saved', by the time that it does.
It was hard to keep him on point, but I asked him again that, if, hypothetically, Armagheddon did happen tomorrow, would I die. He agreed that I would so I asked him if he thought that I deserved to die and if he was comfortable with this. He was unwilling to actually say that I deserved to die. I told him it was implied by his beliefs regardless. He seemed genuinely upset by this suggestion but was also unwilling to admit that I did NOT deserve to die either - presumably because that would mean Jehovah is wrong (was I observing cognitive dissonance)
He kept trying to evade the question and moving between two contradictory answers:
A) Jehovah can look into your heart and see if you are a good person and worthy of saving
B) You have to have a knowledge of scripture and Jehovah and practice a Christian lifestyle to stand a chance at Armagheddon
Whenever I suggested that A implies that you don't need to be a Jehovah's Witness to be saved he would move to B. And whenever I pointed out how grossly unfair B is he'd go back to A. I pointed both A and B could not possibly both be true. He couldnt answer me.
We soemhow got onto the length of days in Genesis. He was not aware that up until the 1980's the Watchtower taught the creative days were 7,000 years long and that this teaching has never officially been retracted and the current teaching that each creative day was 'thousands of years' is still consistent with the 7,000 years teaching. I asked him if he could find out if the 7,000 years is still official docrtine and he said he'd look into it.
He explained that 'day' in Genesis 1 is cross referenced with Genesis 8:22 which uses 'day' figuratively'. I told him that 'yohm' (day) is used 1,200 times in the OT to refer to a 24-hour day so if 'day' is used both figuratively and literally on what basis does Watchtower cross reference a figurative meaning rather than the primary literal meaning - he said it was a good question and he'd look into it for me (maybe the cogs are starting to turn)
He brought up 'Isiah' 'Sphere of Earth' quote. I informed him the correct interpretation was 'circle' a flat object and that the Babylonians used the same word to describe the Earth and they definitely believe the Earth was flat - He seemed surprised by this, like it was news to him and he said that it was 'interesting'.
He kept on talking about 'theoies' so I asked him if he knew what a theory was - he of course said 'conjecture'. I explained to him that a theory, in the scientific context is an explanation that has been tested and is supported by all the evidence and must have predictive power. I used gravity as an example of something that is both a fact and a theory and how it would be foolish to dismiss the fact of gravity because science cannot fully explain the 'theory'. Again, this was all new to him and he seemed to grasp it so I didnt push the point - I know the org teaches a different meaning of 'theory'
He then brought up christmas and birthdays being based on pagan festivals (time of year I guess). I pointed out that his wedding band also had pagan origins. He ignored this and started going on about how christmas can be traced back to paganism so I repeated 'so can your wedding band'. He dissmissibley asked 'can it?' so I replied 'yes, as surely as Christmas can'. He said that wedding bands are trivial and lost their pagan meaning so I asked 'why have wedding bands lost their pagan meaning but Christmas and Birthdays have not?'. He could not answer so then claimed that the Bible prohibits Birthdays and Christmas. I asked him to provide references so he admitted Birthdays and Christmas are not explicitly prohibted so it was an 'interpretation'. I asked how he reconciled this with his earlier claim that was not intersted in the words of men but only God/the Bible.
He started getting a bit cranky by this point because I think it became apparant to him that I've been doing a bit of reading and could refute pretty much all his stock answers. He suggest that I attent a Bible study if I am genuinely interested and have the 'right condition of heart' - he couldn't explain what the 'right heart condition' actually meant.
It seems the Watchtower love vague nebulous words and phrases because you can never pin them down on what they actually mean. If you accept what they say then you are humble and have the right condition of heart but if you do not then you obviously have the wrong condition of heart - it seems if someone doesn't swallow their bullshit then the fault is with that person's tastes, not the fact that the bullshit stinks.
Any way, I'm just rambling now but I get frustrated how JW's are blind to these massive holes....
first time poster here but i've been lurking a while.. i have a question that i was hoping some of the watchtower historians might be able to answer.
if a witness was willing to read some of the organisation's older publications, what books would you get them to read and how do i get these books?.
my family are witnesses and my father is an elder.
Thanks Undercover, I kind of tip toed around the new Generations interpretation but he did'nt seem phased about it so I didnt push it.
I fear you may be right though, he may be beyond reasoning with but yesterday he said something that gave me a glimmer of hope. He said he ever found out what was taught from the podium was incorrec then he'd be the first to leave - his loyalty is to God not a human organisation. How he ever hopes to find out that the organisation is wrong when he automatically dismisses any evidence that suggests that very thing, I'm not quite sure.
Thank, Cabasilas - that's exactly what I was after. I wanted to give him copies of older publications that would condemn the org by their own words. This looks good. I'll print it out and leave them with him and let him read it at his own pace - I won't push it.
Hopefully it sparks some kind of critical thought but we'll see.
first time poster here but i've been lurking a while.. i have a question that i was hoping some of the watchtower historians might be able to answer.
if a witness was willing to read some of the organisation's older publications, what books would you get them to read and how do i get these books?.
my family are witnesses and my father is an elder.
Also, because my Dad is unwilling to read any secular science books I have been writing a critique of Watchtower's blue creation book. . Before giving it to him I was intending to post it on here first to get you lot to give me some constructive criticism - make it really water tight. He has said he would be prepared to read it but that if he perceivesany of it as an 'attack' he'll stop reading it. I've tried to write it as impassionately as possible to avoid this.
I'll post what I've written so far in the next couple of days.
first time poster here but i've been lurking a while.. i have a question that i was hoping some of the watchtower historians might be able to answer.
if a witness was willing to read some of the organisation's older publications, what books would you get them to read and how do i get these books?.
my family are witnesses and my father is an elder.
Thanks, that looks good. I'll pick it up for myself any way but I am not sure if he'll read it because its not an organisation publication. If he gets a sniff that it's 'apostate' we won't go near it.
I never quite worked out why, but he often accuses me of being the one with out an open mind. I read his books but he won't read mine. frustrating.
first time poster here but i've been lurking a while.. i have a question that i was hoping some of the watchtower historians might be able to answer.
if a witness was willing to read some of the organisation's older publications, what books would you get them to read and how do i get these books?.
my family are witnesses and my father is an elder.
Hello all,
First time poster here but I've been lurking a while.
I have a question that I was hoping some of the Watchtower historians might be able to answer. If a Witness was willing to read some of the organisation's older publications, what books would you get them to read and how do I get these books?
My family are witnesses and my father is an Elder. I have tried giving my dad 'critical material' before and even some basic popular science books but he refuses to read them. He doesn't actually admit to not being willing to read, but whenever I bring it up he is evasive and claims he doesn't have the time to read them.
Any way, last night we were having a chat and I was surprised to find out that he hadn't actually read any of the organisation's pre-1914 literature about the 1914 prediction. That's the first thing I would do to verify if the organsation predicted 1914 as claims.
It turns out he would be willing and interested to read some of the orgs older publications. I didnt reveal that my intetion was to stumble so I didnt let on that I knew about pyramidolog or 1874 or anything like that because I know he'd put up his defences. So, what older Russell and Rutherford books should I get him to read? I've skimmed through some of them (Proclaimers book, Millions now Living Many Never Die), any suggestions?
