Thanks Freydo, great resource. I've book marked it.
sorry for ranting. I'm a bit frustrated by it all. I shouldnt let it get to me.
TheStumbler
JoinedPosts by TheStumbler
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49
Please reccommend older Watchtower publciations for stumbling purposes
by TheStumbler infirst time poster here but i've been lurking a while.. i have a question that i was hoping some of the watchtower historians might be able to answer.
if a witness was willing to read some of the organisation's older publications, what books would you get them to read and how do i get these books?.
my family are witnesses and my father is an elder.
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49
Please reccommend older Watchtower publciations for stumbling purposes
by TheStumbler infirst time poster here but i've been lurking a while.. i have a question that i was hoping some of the watchtower historians might be able to answer.
if a witness was willing to read some of the organisation's older publications, what books would you get them to read and how do i get these books?.
my family are witnesses and my father is an elder.
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TheStumbler
Promisingly, I think I got through to my step mum on a few things. Her and my Dad were laughing at how foolish evolution was and asked me 'you don't really believe we evolved from monkeys do you? Where are the missing links?'
I corrected them that no evolutionists claim we evolved from monkeys but rather share a common ancestor with them. I then explained the rarity of fossilisation but that still many transitional species have been found: Homo Erectucus, Homo Hibillis, Australopithicus Aferenis (off the top of my head). They seemed genuinely surprised by this and the fact that I could actually name them. They even asked 'how come this has not been on the news' I said because evolution has been considered a scientific fact for many years now.
They, of course, brought up 'scientific creationists'. I explained they were a minority fringe movement, almost unanimously religiously motivated, and had produced no scientific research. I also told them how even 'creationists' like Michael Behe (frequently reference by Watchtower) in fact accept common descent (but this is not mentioned by the Watchtower)
I explained how molecular genetics has corroborated the 'tree of life' and gave ERVs and mitochondrial DNA as examples. They seemed genuinely interested in this so I explained it to them in full and how only common descent can adequately explain these seperate lines of evidence. I also told them how 'Is there a Creator who cares about you' misrepresented mitochondrial Eve by not mentioning the same line of evidence proves humans have existed for hundred of thousands of years, Y-Chromosonal Adam lived thousands of years apart, and that they are merely the oldest humans that all humans share common ancestry with – they were not the first ever humans to exist.
I asked why the Watchtower does not cover these lines of evidence or misrepresents them?
I gave several examples in Watchtower literature where scientists have been misqouted (including the new Origin of Life pamphlet and the Blue Creation book)
They seemed genuinely interested by all of this and actually seemed to accept that the Watchtower has been intellectually dishonest on this matter
I told my step mum 'whenever I open the Watchtower, whenever it writes about evolution, I see mistakes and falsehoods all over the place – how can I trust an organisation so intellectually dishonest and biased' – she actually agreed that she 'saw where I was coming from'
They asked 'if the Watchtower has misqouted all these scientists, why don't you write them a letter' so I said 'because they don't do anything about it, many scientists, unhappy with how they (or their work) have been treated by the Watchtower have written to the society but retractions are never made and the society continues to print scientific half truths and quotes out of context'.
I think I might be getting through on this point. They even commented that I appeared well researched. I am quite well read on this subject due to my research into the blue creation book which I really do intend to post on here soon (don't worry my writing is to a higher standard in that)
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49
Please reccommend older Watchtower publciations for stumbling purposes
by TheStumbler infirst time poster here but i've been lurking a while.. i have a question that i was hoping some of the watchtower historians might be able to answer.
if a witness was willing to read some of the organisation's older publications, what books would you get them to read and how do i get these books?.
my family are witnesses and my father is an elder.
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TheStumbler
Our exchange did however include these gems:
me: 'So you will not read any scientific evidence which is contrary to the Bible. So, you cannot claim to have an open mind'
Dad: 'I do have an open mind but I already KNOW the bible is true so there is no point looking at contrary scientific evidence' (no hint of irony)
And this....
Dad: 'human knowledge and wisdom cannot be trusted, only the Bible can be trusted'
Me 'If human knowledge cannot be trusted, how can you trust your own (human) judgement that the Bible can be trusted?'.
…......(silence)
this one is a cracker.....
Dad: 'I will only accept evolution when scientists are able to create life'
Me 'that is like saying you will only accept astrophysics once scientsts are able to create a star'
Dad 'They don't know how stars work'
Me 'you are showing your ignorance with that comment
Dad 'how can they understand how the sun works, they can never get close enough to test it – they can only theorise'
Me 'I don't think you understand what theorise means. Can you explain to me how scientists theorise the sun works?'
Dad 'no'
Me 'so you do not understand the science behind stars yet you know it is wrong'
Dad 'yes'
me 'uh...........can you not see any problems with that?'
This is honestly, word for word, how it went. It's almost as bad as the time he tried telling me the earth rotates on three axis...
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Please reccommend older Watchtower publciations for stumbling purposes
by TheStumbler infirst time poster here but i've been lurking a while.. i have a question that i was hoping some of the watchtower historians might be able to answer.
if a witness was willing to read some of the organisation's older publications, what books would you get them to read and how do i get these books?.
my family are witnesses and my father is an elder.
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TheStumbler
It's been a while since I posted. I hope everyone had a good Christmas/holidays
Thought I'd give you a little update. I printed of some these links and gave them to my Dad. He said, as an Elder, he might not have time to read all of them. We were chatting today and it appeared he has read none. I've also aroused his suspicions because he said he will be no longer willing to read the research I have written up into the blue creation book. He said he thinks that I have been talking with apostates. True I suppose.
We got into a bit of a chat. I found it a very frustrating experience but I managed to pin him down on one issue and I thought I'd share it with you.
Several times before he has stated: 'science confirms the Bible's accuracy' or 'science and the Bible are in perfect harmony'. I wondered how he accounted for the fact that science quite clearly contradicts the Bible on several points. I sneakily asked 'according to the Bible, how long have humans be around for' he answered as I hoped he would '6,000 years'. The trap was set so my follow comment: 'It is a fact that current scientific understanding puts the age of the human species as at least hundreds of thousands of years old. Whether you agree with the science is another matter but this fact means the statement 'the Bible and science are in harmony' is not true'
Somehow, through some mental gymnastics, he would not accept this. Even though he agreed that the current scientific consensus was that humans have existed for hundreds of thousands of years he, bizarrely (for reasons he could not explain), still maintained that the Bible and science are in harmony....
his defence seemed to be the following:
Science has been wrong in the past
scientists are humans and imperfect, only the Bible can be trusted
scientists have egos and are out to disprove the Bible
Of course, none of these address the logical impossibility of science being both simultaneously contradictory and in harmony with the Bible. Reasoning with such illogicality is so frustrating. I just couldn’t get through to him.
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Its Just a Theory NOT ABOUT EVOLUTION
by peacefulpete inok and i'm serious, please no rabid flame war allowed on this thread.
please, they are not helpful at all.
i am posting this link to an article, apparently written in all sincerity, that insists that true science supports a geocentric universe and denounces all supposed evidence for the earth turning and revolving as just "theory".
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TheStumbler
I was thinking it was going to be a really clever arguement like some Kant style argument against object reality and stuff. But instead it falliciously states that the heliocentricism is a model based on assumption and geocentricism is true because if it is not then the Bible is wrong but the Bible cannot be wrong because.....It's God's word.
Sorry, but the parallels with evolution are quite strong.
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Its Just a Theory NOT ABOUT EVOLUTION
by peacefulpete inok and i'm serious, please no rabid flame war allowed on this thread.
please, they are not helpful at all.
i am posting this link to an article, apparently written in all sincerity, that insists that true science supports a geocentric universe and denounces all supposed evidence for the earth turning and revolving as just "theory".
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TheStumbler
They seem to misunderstand what a scientific theory is for a start:
The word “scientific“: “regulated by or conforming to the principles of exact science,”
Whereas for “theory”, we find: “An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.”
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Its Just a Theory NOT ABOUT EVOLUTION
by peacefulpete inok and i'm serious, please no rabid flame war allowed on this thread.
please, they are not helpful at all.
i am posting this link to an article, apparently written in all sincerity, that insists that true science supports a geocentric universe and denounces all supposed evidence for the earth turning and revolving as just "theory".
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TheStumbler
EVOLUTION. shit, sorry
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Quotes from 2010 Watchtower publications
by wannabefree inthis magazine has long been used by "the faithful and discreet slave" as the primary channel for dispensing increased light.
(matt.
24:45) for example, consider our understanding of those who make up "this generation" mentioned by jesus.
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TheStumbler
Yes, folks, that's what the "Generation" evidently now means. It's not "The 1914 Generation", or "The Wicked Generation", or even "The Anointed Generation", it's now "The-Younger-Anointed-Contemporaries-Of-Those-Older-Anointed-Ones-Who-Discerned-The-Sign-When-It-Became-Evident-Beginning-In-1914 Generation"!
When you put it like that it does sounds a bit........totally idiotic.
Its actually quite an accomplishment to twist '1914 generation' to include not one person who was alive in 1914 and get people to believe it.
When a JW, did anyone find the word 'slave' a little distasteful?
I mean, even if you thought your master was 'good', who'd want to be a slave?
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49
Please reccommend older Watchtower publciations for stumbling purposes
by TheStumbler infirst time poster here but i've been lurking a while.. i have a question that i was hoping some of the watchtower historians might be able to answer.
if a witness was willing to read some of the organisation's older publications, what books would you get them to read and how do i get these books?.
my family are witnesses and my father is an elder.
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TheStumbler
Thanks for all the links, I've printed some of it out already.
I'm in Christmas eating/drinking mode for the next couple of days so I'll give this stuff a closer read in a couple of days time.
Would you suggest that I highlight or underline some of the more crazy stuff before giving it to my Dad to read?
Good news - I just installed Google Chrome and its got a spell checker so hopefully less typos in my future posts! :)
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49
Please reccommend older Watchtower publciations for stumbling purposes
by TheStumbler infirst time poster here but i've been lurking a while.. i have a question that i was hoping some of the watchtower historians might be able to answer.
if a witness was willing to read some of the organisation's older publications, what books would you get them to read and how do i get these books?.
my family are witnesses and my father is an elder.
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TheStumbler
Cabasilas,
I didnt realise Strictlygenteel.co.uk was run by a JW. I used that site for some of my reasearch into the Blue creation book and the Vailian ring/canopy. I assumed it was 'apostate' - I hate using that word. I had some time earlier to check out some of those links you posted - great stuff! I have printed out some of them.
Diamondiz, Thanks - Kingdom Come sounds like am after too. Do you have any links to PDFs?
Is this stuff out of copyright because of its age?
Do you think any Witnesses find it suspicious they are getting rid of older publications in their Libraries? Do all Kingdom Halls have libraries? I have never noticed a Library before.