Mine comes from J.R.R. Tolkien's The Silmarillion. It was the name the first Elves gave to their race because after awakening they explored the world around them and found no other creatures with the power of speech. So their name means "those that speak with voices".
Quendi
if jws claim to live by the bible then why do they not welcome back repentent ones straight away ?
is there anything in the bible about still ignoring people despite their "heartfelt " repentence and making them sit at the back of meetings etc.. feeling isolated and so sad , if its not in the bible to do this then why do they do it ?
its not what jesus would have done it is cruel , cult like and controlling !
Luke 15:1-32 relates three parables Jesus aimed at the self-righteous scribes and Pharisees. All of them had to do with how repentant sinners were to be viewed and treated. The first is about the shepherd who has one hundred sheep. One of them strays and is lost so the shepherd leaves the ninety-nine behind and makes a diligent search for the lost sheep. When he finds it, he calls his friends and neighbors together to rejoice over its recovery. The second is about a woman losing one drachma coin and makes a careful search for it until it is found. She likewise calls her neighbors together to celebrate. The third is the parable of the Prodigal Son.
Quendi
tasked with hiring a new employee, iff you were looking through potential employee candidates and you were asked to pick one to hire, would knowing one is a jw put that candidate in a negative light?.
I would have no problem hiring a JW. However, I would make it clear to him or her that aggressive proselytizing would not be permitted on the job. So while I would have no objection to their refusal to participate in holiday celebrations/observances and sharing their reasons for this, I would say that coin has two sides. That means no distributing of WTS literature at work and no derogatory remarks about the religion, beliefs, or creeds of coworkers.
Quendi
if jws claim to live by the bible then why do they not welcome back repentent ones straight away ?
is there anything in the bible about still ignoring people despite their "heartfelt " repentence and making them sit at the back of meetings etc.. feeling isolated and so sad , if its not in the bible to do this then why do they do it ?
its not what jesus would have done it is cruel , cult like and controlling !
I pointed out Jesus' parable of the Prodigal Son to my judicial committee. Their angry silence was all I needed to know about their attitude as well as the WTS' about the Lord's words. The answer to your question is simple. This organization is no more "Christian" than the Ku Klux Klan is. It has only a veneer of Christianity, and a very thin one at that. The Bible is selectively read and interpreted, thus making it easier to ignore irritating passages like Luke 15:1-32.
Quendi
[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:officedocumentsettings> <o:allowpng /> </o:officedocumentsettings> </xml><!
[endif][if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:trackmoves /> <w:trackformatting /> <w:punctuationkerning /> <w:validateagainstschemas /> <w:saveifxmlinvalid>false</w:saveifxmlinvalid> <w:ignoremixedcontent>false</w:ignoremixedcontent> <w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext>false</w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext> <w:donotpromoteqf /> <w:lidthemeother>en-ca</w:lidthemeother> <w:lidthemeasian>x-none</w:lidthemeasian> <w:lidthemecomplexscript>x-none</w:lidthemecomplexscript> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> <w:dontgrowautofit /> <w:splitpgbreakandparamark /> <w:enableopentypekerning /> <w:dontflipmirrorindents /> <w:overridetablestylehps /> </w:compatibility> <m:mathpr> <m:mathfont m:val="cambria math" /> <m:brkbin m:val="before" /> <m:brkbinsub m:val="--" /> <m:smallfrac m:val="off" /> <m:dispdef /> <m:lmargin m:val="0" /> <m:rmargin m:val="0" /> <m:defjc m:val="centergroup" /> <m:wrapindent m:val="1440" /> <m:intlim m:val="subsup" /> <m:narylim m:val="undovr" /> </m:mathpr></w:worddocument> </xml><!
[endif][if gte mso 10]> <style> /* style definitions */ table.msonormaltable {mso-style-name:"table normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0cm; mso-para-margin-right:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0cm; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"times new roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi; mso-fareast-language:en-us;} </style> <![endif].
For me, it's not just Saturdays that I enjoy more but Sundays as well. I have always viewed living in Colorado as a privilege, and with free weekends I can take more advantage of it. On Saturday I can go for a nice walk or a drive up in our magnificent high country. On Sunday, I go to church in the morning, and then can relax for the rest of the day. But if I don't want to go to church for any reason, I don't feel at all guilty. The church service lasts a little more than an hour, gives me a great spiritual boost, makes me feel refreshed, and actually enhances my life in many little ways. I certainly didn't feel that way about attending the meetings at the Kingdom Hall, especially the weeknight ones. Thanks for sharing your experience, iclone. I rejoice that you and your family are living life again.
Quendi
to this day, in all countries, any persons among jehovah's witnesses who find they cannot conscientiously support fully the organization's teachings or practices live in a climate of fear, feeling they must constantly be on guard as to what they say, what they do, what they read, with whom they associate, from whom they receive letters, not feeling any sense of freedom even when among personal friends or close relatives if these are also witnesses.
as stated, in my personal experience i have had people phone who were afraid to give their name or who felt it necessary to use a fictitious name, some who even felt it necessary to take out a special post office box to be able to correspond without danger of their correspondence with me or other former witnesses being discovered.
they face a form of "hostage" situation, produced by the organization's authority.
Leaving this hateful religion is easier said than done, and I speak as one who finally has severed my ties. The emotional cost alone is enormous. I still have friends and family trapped inside for whom I have the deepest love and with whom I have had no contact in years. I will always miss them but have resigned myself to being without their friendship. So I can understand those who choose to "fade" or slowly become inactive, staying on the inside as it were. They can't bear the searing pain of losing family members and dear friends. Some would risk disinheritance. Others would suffer loss of home and livelihood. The WTS practices a most pernicious form of spiritual blackmail and extortion against any and all dissidents. So anyone contemplating leaving the religion must carefully count the cost of this drastic and irreversible action.
Despite that high cost, I am glad that I am now out. I have absolutely no desire to ever set foot inside a Kingdom Hall again for any reason whatsoever. I never thought I would have such sentiments while I was an active Witness and that shows just how far I have traveled in my spiritual journey. Ray Franz, whom I met many years ago, was a man who finally realized that there could be no further affiliation between him and the WTS. And I agree with jonathan dough that he does bear some responsibility for the harm this religion wrought on others. Still, he tried his level best to make up for that in his writings and associations in the years that followed his being disfellowshipped.
Thanks, CoCo, for sharing the quote from Ray Franz. It proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that the "spiritual paradise" the WTS claims is its domain is nothing more than a spiritual police state. Fear and suspicion are growing among the ranks of Jehovah's Witnesses. Their "New World Society" more closely resembles the political society that the old Soviet Union had, or the fictional Animal Farm George Orwell wrote about. I now live in the hope that this cult will eventually collapse and that I will still be here when it does to help my loved ones emerge from its rubble.
Quendi
are the wbt$ spies watching us?
i like to think we are guiding them although they hate us so much they are even suggesting we should be killed!
they have already called us 'mentally diseased'.. on the forums and elsewhere we've seen this quote many times =.
Blondie, thanks for these quotes. They are further proof, is any were needed, that the WTS and its adherents are not followers of the one who said, "However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those persecuting you; that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous." --Matthew 5: 44, 45
Quendi
can someone explain why jws shun disfellowshipped ones when they are at their meetings (i.e.
making moves to come back)?.
i can understand why you may not want to 'socialize' with ones who do not share your beliefs.. but surely shunning such ones at the 'meetings'; assuming they are not there to cause trouble, is unloving; should they not be welcomed like the prodigal son.. true christians are known by the 'love' they show.
The point that many are making, IMHO, is that once you are disfellowshipped, you are the scum of the earth as far as a judicial committee or body of elders are concerned. Recent Watchtower articles, such as those published in the 15 July 2011 issue, only reinforce this attitude for elders, ministerial servants, and the rank and file as well. Coming to the meetings does not mean anything to Witnesses except to those few who really are close to you. The rest are told that they should offer no greeting, no encouragement, no sign of welcome or affection to the disfellowshipped person under any circumstances.
The stories that I and others have shared about our treatment are an addendum to your original query. We shared them to help you understand that coming to meetings will not alter your treatment by Witnesses inside or outside the Kingdom Hall. The organization demands that the disfellowshipped person show "fruits of repentance", meaning that you must be humiliated on any and every occasion whenever Witnesses are present. That is why the shunning is practiced even if you are a faithful meeting attender. Your attendance, coupled with the humiliating treatment, are seen as the proper "fruits" resulting from your sin. You are a spiritual leper, plain and simple, and will remain such even after your reinstatement. Because even then the WTS imposes sanctions: you cannot comment at meetings; you cannot auxiliary pioneer; you cannot have parts on the TMS or SM. So you're still a second-class Witness. It can take years for the restrictions to be lifted, and then only after you've groveled before the elders in abject humiliation, begging them to do so. And should your meeting attendance or field service participation falter, the restrictions will not be lifted for any reason.
Small wonder, then, that the overwhelming majority of those disfellowshipped or disassociated never return. Only one-third of those disciplined in this way are ever reinstated. That is a statistic the WTS sweeps under the rug. I brought it up before my judicial committee, adding, "As a former school teacher, I can tell you that is a failing grade in anyone's book. If this arrangement has divine sanction and approval, why is the recovery rate so low? Obviously, something is gravely wrong with the entire procedure." The sullen silence I got in reply from the elders only confirmed what I pointed out and was all the answer I needed about the impropriety, the hatefulness, the unscripturalness of the disfellowshipping and shunning practices the WTS follows. Now that I'm out, I'd rather die and rot in my grave before I ever return.
Quendi
can someone explain why jws shun disfellowshipped ones when they are at their meetings (i.e.
making moves to come back)?.
i can understand why you may not want to 'socialize' with ones who do not share your beliefs.. but surely shunning such ones at the 'meetings'; assuming they are not there to cause trouble, is unloving; should they not be welcomed like the prodigal son.. true christians are known by the 'love' they show.
And even when you comply with the demands of the judicial committee, they can still deny reinstatement. That is what happened to me. I was disfellowshipped in September 2005. I attended meetings regularly, but that wasn't enough. The committee demanded that I sit where I was directed, come to the meetings with the relevant literature, make sure I had studied the lesson and highlighted the main points in the publication, and then allow the committee enough time to judge my efforts.
This charade went on for nearly five years. Every time I wrote a letter requesting reinstatement, the committee would come up with another excuse about why this would not be granted, or plead for more time to examine my case. I then realized the truth a Witness friend who refused to shun me had stated from the beginning. The committee had no intention of reinstating me and I was wasting my time seeking it. I think what most annoyed the elders was my refusal to grovel at their feet and sue for pardon. It took me five years but I finally realized the truth of what my friend had said. I ceased all efforts to get reinstated in June 2010, walked away, and have never looked back. I am all the better for it.
Quendi
what would the wt do if say, a country or countries enacted a law that made shunnung illegal?.
punishable by time in prison or heavy fines?.
would they have the gall to 'obey god as ruler' rather than man, and actually continue the practice in defiance of the law even though they would incur the wrath of governments?
I have to strongly disagree with you, wobble, my friend, on application of the First Amendment to the American Constitution with respect to shunning. Here you are off base. The question has already been argued in American courts which have consistently found for the WTS. Comparing shunning to child abuse or polygamy, or some other blatantly illegal activity isn't relevant. The First Amendment states that Congress cannot make any laws with respect to the establishment of a religion. And when the issue has come before courts, they have ruled that since shunning does no physical harm to anyone, the religion is free to insist upon it. As we know, Jehovah's Witnesses aren't the only religion to practice this.
Does this mean I agree with shunning? Absolutely not. But I think American courts are right not to rule in favor of plaintiffs in these cases. As they have also consistently said, you know the rules when you join the religion. That is plainly stated in the baptismal vows each candidate makes before witnesses. So, if you agree to follow the rules, then you can't apply to the courts for redress unless you can demonstrate clear physical harm or danger.
As far as what happens in Australia on this matter, I doubt the WTS will then repeal the shunning edict if Australia decided that it is illegal. As has been stated, the WTS made shunning optional in Bulgaria, but underneath that velvet glove lies the iron fist of threatened sanctions against anyone who did not comply. So in effect the practice remains in place and will be enforced. I wish matters were otherwise.
Quendi
