Posts by Larsguy

4

Hebrews 9:28 & "Appear"

by SharonUT in

i am trying to understand upon what basis the jehovah's witnesses equate the word "appear" with "invisible" in hebrews 9:28. in the kjv it says, "so christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.".

looking at the dictionary:.

[middle english aperen, from old french aparoir, aper-, from latin apprre : ad-, ad- + prre, to show.

Larsguy

This is a very good point! Many scriptures indicate that Jesus would return in the flesh. He has to in order to do some of the things it says he would do, like teaching in the broadways of the apostates and eating one last Passover meal, etc. Plus the Bible says the "antichrist's" expression would be saying that Jesus did not come in the flesh. If we presume that is one way to identify the antichrist, which I do, then by deduction that would be a strong confirmation Jesus was to return in the flesh.

At any rate, whether he has arrived or not depends upon which group of "virgins" you are in. Just note that while all the virgins started out together to see the Messiah and get into the wedding feast, and all of then were caught "nodding" when the Messiah arrived, meaning they would not realize until the very last moment when he would arrive or his arrival would surprise them and wake them up, only the wise virgins with the EXTRA Biblical OIL in their lamps saw the Messiah early on. The foolish virgins didn't come to the wedding feast until later and were too late.

So everybody doesn't see the Messiah when he first arrives "in the clouds" which means in itself his coming would be partially "clouded" and thus somewhat mysterious and secretive.

Bottom line though, it revolves around closely paying attention to scripture. If you do, then you'd believe Jesus' words that he would arrive before the end of a generation expired after the signs of the "time of the end" began which began with a world war (i.e. "nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom"). Presuming that was World War I, the Messiah has to arrive before 1994 and that is already passed.

So it boils down to the wise virgin class of anointed ones knowing that Messiah must have already arrived versus the foolish virgins who think the hasn't arrived yet; the foolish virgins, thus paying no attention to his words about the generation limit. In addition, obviously, the foolish virgins don't pay enough attention to scripture to understand where or how the Messiah would arrive and are looking for the wrong thing. Thus it is only when it is too late that they find the Messiah wanting to get into the kingdom and he tells them "I don't know you...get away from me you workers of lawlessness."

The wise virgins know the Messiah arrives before 1994 so they adjust their Biblical understanding of the scriptures according to that.

1994 is over. The Messiah must have already arrived...right? It's been nearly 8 years since then.

LG

10

Accepted 66 books of Canon

by SharonUT in

considering an apostacy that was well into swing by 100ad, and worse yet by the time the nicene council was held in 325ad... how are jehovah's witnesses sure about the basically protestant canon they initially accepted which was canonized about 376ad at earlist and still even then, many christians didn't agree upon that and still don't today!

i could go into more detail if desired... but upon what basis to jw's accept this canon from an apostate generation?

how do they know that other books such as the book of enoch originally held to be scripture and quoted frequently in mark or the shepherd of hermes should not be included as inspired?

Larsguy

The Bible's canon will always be up for debate and whether it is true or inspired will likely be determined by testing it's continuity and fulfillment of Bible prophecy or historical information.

I can't comment on the current NT books, but just note that the NT Bible writers did manage to quote extrensively from other books and thus established their own intrabiblical canon if you accept the NT books as inspired. However, this excluded three books which are currently in the NWT canon which are ESTHER, SONG OF SOLOMON, and ECCLESIASTES. My investigation confirms for sure that neither Esther nor Canticles (SOS) can be considered to be inspired because of historical errors or contextual discrepancies. None of these books mentions God's name nor have any prophecies which are typical of the other books, generally.

Inasmuch as the apostles and others did not quote from these three books, I take that as a confirmation they should be excluded from the "inspired" canon, whether they have valuable information or not.

ESTHER, SOS and ECCLESIATES do not belong in the canon for sure, so it's a matter of discussing the 63 books of the Bible and not 66 as far as I'm concerned.

LG

4

Coming vs. Presence

by SharonUT in

as i have studied the kjv, matthew 24:3 uses the word "coming" in the same way matthew 21:5 does.

matthew 24:3: "and as he sat upon the mount of olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, tell us, when shall these things be?

and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Larsguy

Thanks for your comments. "Presence", in fact, is not a good translation of this term since it is misleading. It's hard to find a good English word that expresses what they understood back then but basically all the disciples were asking about were the things that would be taking place a the distant time when the Messiah would arrive and Jesus gave them a generation's worth of events leading up to and including his arrival, the first of which was a world war which allows us to date that last generation from World War I which is totally in harmony with the Bible's other chronology which specifically pinpoints the year of the Second Coming, even down to a few months...

"No one knows the DAY nor HOUR.." is a specific fulfillment. It doesn't mean the exact year would not be known in advance by the "wise virgin" class anointed ones.

As far as Christ arriving though, keep in mind there are two groups; the wise virgins and the foolish virgins. I won't introduce new information into this thread but just suffice to say the wise virgins are aware of and find and recognize the Messiah before the foolish virgins do. So everybody would not see the Messiah when he first arrives. At the very least though, the Messiah was to appear back on the earth, IN THE FLESH again, no later than 1994, so.... if you're still looking for a second coming you apparently missed it; others, however, did not.

LG

11

Making money out of the dead and holocaust

by Kent in

jw
friends

as you may know, victims from the nazi camps can get compensation, and the watchtower has naturally found a new way to get money - from the dead!

they propose that they will get the money - and "give it away to needy jws".

since when did the watchtower do anything of the kind?

Larsguy

Thanks for posting this Kent.

I suppose the HOLOCAUST issue will not go away since it was the prophesied "great tribulation" mentioned in Matthew and Mark (not a different great tribulation mentioned in Revelation). The details of the HOLOCAUST fulfill many specific Bible prophecies. It would seem if that's the case that the Holocaust and it's link to Jehovah's Witnesses will come more into focus as we realize this event is linked to the Jews' failing their Law Covenant with God and it is associated with the 1290 days which event is used to date the second coming (1335 days).

Of note the "Love of the GREATER NUMBER" cooling off would reference a "lesser number", thus the two groups, both spiritual Israel (lesser number/JWs) and greater number (natural Jews) are implied scripturally. The love of the greater number cooling off would have to do with the anti-Semitic attitudes that was a precursor to the Holocaust. Another detail about the Holocaust fulfilled was "unless the days were cut short, no flesh would be saved" implies a possible total extermination of the holy ones was possible at this critical time which was very true of the Jews whom Hitler was determine to exterminate totally.

But while the focus of the "great tribulation" would be against the greater number, it is significant that there was a trampling of spiritual Israel, that is, Jehovah's witnesses, specifically by the Nazis which is a further indication they are considered to be spiritual Israel, Biblically.

So all that to just say this, in the background, that the JW unique connection with the Holocaust represents specific Biblical fulfillment of prophecy, but their being primarily singled out by the Nazis, who later proved to be the "disgusting thing causing desolation" to the natural Jews proves the witness organization are the prophesied temple organization.

But of even more fascinating note is the fact that the Nazi focus against Jehovah's witnesses was not their doctrinal beliefs in the least but their alleged connection with Jewish Freemasonry. Apparently Hitler presumed they offered a cover for an ongoing secret society which JF Rutherford seemed to more than confirm in his letter to Hitler. So I would just like to have us all keep in mind WHY Jehovah's Witnesses were singled out by the Nazis, which was basically because they were suspected of being pro-Semitic cultic spies linked with the Jewish underground and Freemasonry. This wasn't religious persecution, this was political persecution.

I hope your documentation will focus on some of these facts.

Thanks again for your collecting this data at your site.

LG

11

"Houston, we have a problem..."

by You Know in

jw
friends

victoria's secret posted yesterday that the convention in houston got flooded out.

i have friends and relatives there that i have been unable to contact.

can someone tell me the situation there?

Larsguy

Hello Gladiator,

I didn't realize You Know had a doctrinal position that there would be an aposty within the witness organization since he seemd so loyal, this is interesting news.

Problem is, the Bible indicates the apostasy would be of the Governing Body, not among the brothers necessarily other than the ones worshipping them. Perhaps I should start a new thread, but 2 Thess. 2:4 claims that some of the anointed would rise up "in the temple of THE God" and make themselves gods, becoming apostate. Obviously the only entity who could do that would be whoever is in charge of the organization meaning the GB.

So there is definitely supposed to be an apostasy within the "temple" organization, only it includes the GB!! I doubt that's You Know's position. The prophesied "man of lawlessness" ends up being the GB of JWs. Details will be discussed in a new thread if you're interested in scriptural references.

But this was definitely a "freak" storm which seemed focussed in Houston, raining out the assembly. I wouldn't imagine a direct connection but I'm wondering!!! Was this a wake-up call from Heaven to the apostate Governing Body and their continued Biblical lying and apostasy? I say that since this was a very unusual storm centered in Houston....

LG

11

"Houston, we have a problem..."

by You Know in

jw
friends

victoria's secret posted yesterday that the convention in houston got flooded out.

i have friends and relatives there that i have been unable to contact.

can someone tell me the situation there?

Larsguy

Hello everyone,

I just put a call through to my parents who are still trapped there.

They told me that they barely got out of the stadium on Friday when the rains started but that some witnesses were derinitely trapped in the stadium and could not get home. As of now they are still trapped in Houston, unable to get up to Palestine.

Unfortunately, I'm sad to report that they confirmed that two witnesses, apparently an elderly couple in their car had drowned. So this is very devastating.

They also report the water is near the roofs for some homes so apparently some of these homes are going to be lost. This has turned out to be much more of a tragedy than I had thought.

My mother told me two days of the Houston assembly have already been rescheduled.

So, thankfully, my parents are okay but still trapped in Houston for the moment. Two JW confirmed to have drowned.

I'll post an update when I hear more. Hopefully the rains will let up. Plus apparently this was sort of a "freak" storm that kept "circling Houston", dropping record inches of rain.

LG

11

"Houston, we have a problem..."

by You Know in

jw
friends

victoria's secret posted yesterday that the convention in houston got flooded out.

i have friends and relatives there that i have been unable to contact.

can someone tell me the situation there?

Larsguy

Hello You Know,

Both my parents who live in Texas were scheduled to go to the assembly in Houston and they called me last night and said it got rained out and got cancelled. My mother told me that some areas surrounding the Astrodome were EIGHT FEET DEEP! The area has been hit by incredible rain all this week. In fact my parents said the day before they left it rained worst than they ever had seen (Palestine) and they were hoping to have clear roads to go down to Houston for the assembly. At last contact they said they were heading back since the assembly was cancelled and were hoping the roads were open.

So this is a second confirmation that the assembly in Houston defenitely got rained out, or I should say flooded out.

LG

15

Satan, Serpents, Seraphs, Dragons... and Wisdom

by AGuest in

may you all have peace!.

i would like to interject independently of a thread below, where the debate is satan being god's 'wife'... and therefore, wisdom.. 1. satan... was one of the 'cherubs' that was 'covering' the ark of the covenant.

michael is the other 'arkangel', and both were created to 'cover' the propitiatory... which 'covers'... the ark.. exodus 25:17-22. ezekiel 28:14, 17.

Larsguy

Very interesting. I have no real comment other than you caused me to think about Jesus being the <u>copper</u> serpent at the second coming and this might have a subtle reference to his complexion, being dark but not took dark, specifically copper colored.

Ordinarily I wouldn't bother commenting on this since that is even a bit speculative even for me, except it's confirmed and implied elsewhere in scripture, namely the prophecy about the "7 times" which shows the chopped-down tree being banded with two bands, specifically one of iron and one of copper, and specifically in that order.

When applied to the first and Second Coming, both occurring in the flesh, this may reflect the complexion or racial nature of the Messiah each time; the first being fair-skinned and Jewish, the second being copper-colored.

Taking that reference to reflect a reference to the striking physical appearance of the Messiah at the second coming, depicting him as a copper serpent is prophetic of his general nature and appearance at the second coming. So the fact that it is a copper-colored serpent simply shows the Bible did make a representation consistent with the complexion of the Messiah at the second coming, which would be on eof dark skin.

Again consistent with this we see in Revelation the hint that the second coming Messiah would have dark skin when we find the vision of the Messiah with feet of "copper color".

It think it is worth at least considering this consistency with the complexion of the Messiah for the second coming since the Bible seems to be at least reflecting on the CONTRAST here of the second comnig with the first. That specific reference, of course, relates to the fact that the Messiah at the second coming would not be visibly Jewish, but would be a person of undistinguished ancestry like Melchisedek. A person who is both a king and a priest, but not of the tride of Levi and specifically not of confirmed Jewish ancestry which is the critical point since we know the first coming necessarily showed the Messiah coming through the Jews and through the royal line of King David.

Anyway, perhaps you'd like to comment on that consistency; Jesus' feet being copper colored, meaning he is copper-complected, at least at the second coming. Also the second band on the chopped down tree of the "7 times" prophecy relating to the Messiah is specifically different than the first, copper vs iron. And also the serpent that would be raised up again specifically at the second coming is a copper serpent, thus a subtle prophecy that the Messiah would be a dark-complected person who must be looked to for salvation and healing at the end times.

That is, those anointed ones or astute Biblical persons who realize that the Messiah would arrive in the flesh and wanted to know what he looked like would find this consistency as a clue to his actual appearance and skin tone. For those who have other ideas about the second coming this would not make much of a point. Just commenting.

Thanks for your post.

LG

25

Pentecost 33CE What really happened.

by biblexaminer in

foreword.

and if they were not in the "upper chamber" at pentecost, where were they?

or is it "acts of the apostles"?

Larsguy

Dear AGuest,

Sorry for misquoting you. I should have read you more closely.

Based upon your statements, however, you still don't address that the Bible dates Jesus' baptism in the 15th of Tiberius which locks it into 29CE, meaning if he was almost 30 at the time he would have been born in the fall of 2BCE based upon that. The fact that Herod's death date is up in the air would seem to permit us to date Jesus' birth correctly in 2BCE without critical contradiction historically.

LG

25

Wisdom Personified

by ozziepost in

the next time a householder says to you: everyone has his own interpretation of the bible, how will you respond?

perhaps you will use the suggestion from the reasoning book (page 65) you might reply: and obviously not all of them are right.

you might add: twisting the scriptures to fit our own ideas can result in lasting harm .

Larsguy

Dear Pomegrante,

I totally accept your choice to interpret this verse as you wish. But have settled on my own interpretation here as you have and am comfortble with it. But just let me add some perspective here.

The contest is between "YOU and the WOMAN" and between YOUR SEED and HER SEED. So this suggests two principals and their respective followers being at odds with each other. In Revelation, these two principals are Michael and his angels (his seed) and Satan and his seed (angels), which battle it out together.

Now, you claim that Jehovah was speaking to the serpent. Well that is the specific reference. However, had he not given a specific reference to the serpent first before that reference to the enmity, you could claim that he was speaking specifically to the serpent and not to anyone else. But verse 14 first addresses a specific curse to the serpent about it being cursed and going on it's belly, etc.

This allows for subsequent statements to be implied to others.

In this regard, most persons consider that Jehovah is speaking at least to Satan, who is not mentioned specifically when he says, "he will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel." Furthermore, most persons also seem to think quite clearly that the "seed" of the woman is Jesus Christ. All that to say that lots of people seem to think these statements are not applicable specifically to the serpent, and I agree.

But once you start making these presumptions, then it is a matter of individual interpretation. My point of reference is merely that I believe that Jehovah was indeed speaking to Satan when he said "he will bruise you in the head..." but that Jesus, who is a key player here, was also present, and it was to him that he said: "I'll put enmity between you and the woman...and her seed". If Jehovah is addressing Satan directly by implication, then why not also Jesus? After all, wasn't he involved? Was he there or what?

As far as Satan being the "woman", I've found a basis for that elsewhere but will only comment that Jesus is said to have a wife in the 144,000 Bride Class and since they will be like God's TEMPLE in a holy position, Satan's former position as the unique covering cherb on the Ark of the Covenant, represented by the feminine palm tree figure, in close association with Jesus as the man-bull figure on the curtains could easily be considered this unique and close partnership which the Bible would consider a marriage. Additionally, since God said: "Let us make mankind in our image...male and FEMALE he created them", the presumption here is that he was speaking both with Jesus and Satan at the time, with the things in the earth reflecting the things in heaven, specifically the man and the tree of life reflecting Jesus and the woman and the tree of knowledge reflecting the pre-apostate (woman=Christ's wife) Satan. Then he addressed Adam and Eve directly after that.

This is just my personal understanding which I'm comfortable with scripturally, but I know this is challenging and don't blame you if you can't come along on this. That's fine. But at this point, it's just your interpretation versus my own. Which is correct is for God to decide since "interpretation belongs to God."

Thanks for your opinion.

LG