a question for all to consider is: if pakistan and india go nuclear, as seems to becoming more likely by the day, how long will civilization be able to stay intact without completely unraveling, and during that interval will ridiculers be able to maintain the delusion that nothing out of the ordinary is happening in the world?
/ you know.
> http://www.msnbc.com/news/753586.asp?pne=msn&cp1=1
Thanks for posting your analysis, You Know.
When things got too far out of hand and to the point of no return the last time, God stepped in and corrected the matter; that was the time of the global flood. Maybe this world will be on the brink of disaster when that happens again. Let's hope so!
L.G.
i was talking to my dad last night and i told him that there is no "organization" that jehovah uses directly.
he quoted this scripture and said "well then who is this talking about" i read the scripture and i have to say i am a bit puzzled.
if it doesn't say what the jw's say (not that i'm saying they are it) then what does this scripture refer to?
We have to JUMP TO CONTEXT HERE!
In order for there to be an "evil slave" and a "sluggish slave" there has to have been some confidence in some slave in the beginning for there to be a failure in the end. You can't have an "evil slave" being kicked out of God's house unless he was once in that house.
The other critical issue is that there was prophesied a "temple organization" in Daniel. "The temple would be in the right condition after 2300 evenings and mornings!"
So to get to the point, a specific temple organization was to be in place which would have a special purpose, like the Jews. But unfortunately, as prophesied, this temple organizatino would be corrupted. But still God would use it in it's corrupt state until the end of the harvest period when the sheep would be separated from the goats, the weeds from the wheat, the fine fish from the junk fish, etc.
Bottom line: JWs are that "temple organization" but that also means the host the "evil slave" who is in charge and becomes apostate. (2 Thess. 2:4).
When the Messiah arrives he finds the evil slave sleeping and kicks him out into the darkness and that's where we are right now. The GB opf JW is that "evil slave" and is now in spiritual darkness.
But STILL....you must recognize the witness organization as that "temple organization" that was prophesied about.
The temple organization does perform special services in the last days as far as the kingdom, but unfortunately, it also produces the "evil slave".....
So it's a bit complex and complicated, but in the end, JWs are God's true temple organization but the GB becomes an apostate "evil slave" at the same time.
That's it.
L.G.
in this thread... http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=28021&site=3.
bleep said:.
how can you be suffering when your dead?.
This is a passage where the Bible uses symbolic language and where more than one understanding can be obtained, but "interpretation belongs to god."
Thus I'll just say, in defense of the WTS' position which is also my own, that the lake of fire is a "symbolic" place is because "death" and "hades", two symbolic abstract concepts are also thrown into the lake of fire. I think that's an interesting point. How is an abstract destroyed in a literal place.
Furthermore, the lake of fire is called the "second death" specifically. That is understood because for the majority of mankind who will be resurrected after the millennium for judgment day, there is a potential for a "second death". The resurrection will be of both the righteous and the unrighteous. The unrighteous will be judged and then undergo a "second death". Death in the Bible is a state of total unconsciuosness. Thus if the lake of fire, though described as a place of eternal torment forever and ever is also called the "second death" then one can attribute a symbolic meaning to the eternal torment from the standpoint of the Bible writer.
Another aspect of this to consider with respect to the fire and torment being symbolic is that we all know what happens when you burn something up. This sounds like a lake of lava. But if you throw someone in a lake of lava they eventually burn completely up. So how is it that this lake of fire simply torments you forever and never destroys you? And how is it a second "death" if you're still alive?
Thus, the the lake of fire is a symbolic place that addresses those who have been condemned forever by God, missing out on life, the torment and torture could be considered as eternal since they will not return from that place, unlike Hades, the grave, where all persons will return from after dying, to either get eternal life or be condemned to eternal death, condemned forever, which is colorfully described as eternal torment in fire.
So I think there is a basis to believe the fire an torment are spiritually symbolic and not literal as does the WTS. But, of course, I acknowledge that this scriptrue and the one parable about the Rich Man and Lazarus showing the Rich Man after dying in firey torment certain by the symbolism suggests there is a literal place of eternal torment. But since the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus when fulfilled deals with a time when the Rich Man is simply condemned but still active, firey torment again makes the fire symbolic of spiritual rejection and condemnation.
Finally, the Jews had a concept of Gehenna because of the literal fires kept burning for their trash and dead bodies outside the city. The significant aspect of that was that the fires were kept burning continually and were never put out. So there is another aspect of this connected to the symbolism of Gehenna, a final place of condemnation for evildoers where the fire consumes and is never put out, again, simply lending itself to the idea of a FINAL, everlasting judgment.
As far as Judas being better off not having been born. This might have to do with the concept that no name is better than a bad name in the grand scheme of things. Thus perhaps the shame and total horror of what he did compared to what was possible, in contrast, is worse than had he never existed at all. For instance, if you had a choice of not ever being born, or living to one day kill your own wife and three small children in some mad rage and then yourself being executed in the electric chair, which would you prefer. Is it better that you live to kill your own family and die in shame or better that you never live at all? I think most persons would prefer never being born to living to kill an innocent human being.
Just my 2 cents (I know it looks like 7.5 cents, but....-smile)
could someone explain to me how the generation doctrine changed?
i know that originally they thought it applied to the generation of 1914 and i heard that it changed.
i asked my dad to explain it to me but his explanation didn't make any sense to me - something like "a generation can last forever" ???
We are all so clearly sure that the WTS is wrong about the "last generation" doctrine but are we concerned about, if the WTS is wrong, what the true meaning is?
I'm no prophet - but when I left the JWs I told my parents that the generation doctrine would have to change after 1994 because that was 80 years after 1914.This is the correct understanding. The Bible gives us what a generation is, a lifespan of a man, which is 70 to 80 years, 80 years at the most. Jesus' words were stated to LIMIT the time period when these events would all happen to within a generation, starting with a global conflict (i.e. "nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom"). So 1914 is a valid date for beginning that generation, but the Messiah must arrive within 80 years of that date, that is by 1994.
Now complicating the issue is that the witnesses think that the "great tribulation" is Armageddon and that the reference to the Jesus arriving in the clouds is when he comes to bring Armageddon instead of simply his second coming. They think he arrived in 1914. But if you read the Bible carefully, what happens near the end of that generation is the actual second coming, not Armageddon!
Once you understand that, therefore, you can have an accurate understanding of the this prophecy and check to see if it was fulfilled. So a lot depends upon accurate dating. Now that we have to deal with the evidence that Jerusalem fell in 529BCE, however, which gives us another date for dating the SECOND COMING to 1992, it's simply a matter of observing that the correct second coming date does fall within 80 years of 1914, that is prior to 1994.
So while JWs are in error about understanding the generation since they are in error across-the-board on understanding many things, the Bible remains true and was fulfilled by those who believe the 2520 years ended in 1992 near the end of the generation beginning in 1914, and believe that the "coming in the clouds" is really a reference to the secret (as a thief) second coming of the Messiah and not Armageddon.
So the Bible remains true if you have the correct interpretation and you don't have to twist a generation past 80 years for that to happen. If you stick with the Bible, though, you'll have to conclude that the second coming must occur before 1994 or else the Bible is not true.
But the year of the Second Coming is specific in the Bible. It must occur 45 years after the Jews return to Palestine and it must be within a year of the mid-week Passover during the last 70th week. If you count 70 weeks from 36 CE, for instance, you'll see that 1960 years ends in 1996 and thus the mid-week passover that ends "gift and sacrifice" (Jesus ends the Passover/Memorial when he eats it one last time when he arrives) must occur during Passover of 1993.
The "great tribulation" was not supposed to start during this last 70 weeks until after 62 weeks, that is 434 years. If the last 70 weeks began in 1506, therefore, then the "great tribulation" that was prophesied cannot begin before 1940. Yet, in order to fulfill the 50th Jubilee, which would see the Jews return to Palestine in 1947, the great tribulation must be already over. According to Daniel 12, after the great tribulation and the the "end" of the gentile times, that is when the Jews regain control over their homeland, ending their official exile, there still would be 45 years until the Messiah would arrive in order to fulfill the 1335 days. The end of gentile rule in Palestine ends the 1290 days. Thus a second way to date the Second Coming is to add 45 years to 1945 which, of course, means the Messiah cannot arrive before November 30, 1992, but obviously must arrive before April 6 (Passover) of 1993 to fulfill the "ending gift and sacrifice" part ofthe prophecy. But that leaves only a 7-year interval in order for the "great tribulation" to take place, a unique event that never happened before nor would happen again. But this was to happen to "Judea"! That is, the Jews! An event that if not cut short "no FLESH would be saved." This is not a reference to the entire world, but specifically to the flesh of the Jews. Thus the "gerat tribulation" which must occur sometime between 1940 and 1947 was none other than....THE HOLOCAUST!!! The Bible says that Jesus would come "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days..." after a period of spiritual darkness would occur. This is the interval of the 45 years from 1947.
But still, case in point, Jesus' words remain true as he said that he would arrive again within a generation of that first world conflict, that is, before 1994. So his arrival by 1992/1993 becomes true when you have the correct understanding and the correct dating which we can now cross-reference THREE WAYS by three prophecies that give us the specific year of the second coming, all of which must be coordinated. It is, therefore, not a mistake that we have discovered evidence in the VAT4956 and the SK400 astronominal texts that prove that the original 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar fell in 529BCE to confirm that the "7 times" prophecy dated from 529BCE to 1992 is the correct one which harmonizes with the Messiah arriving at least 45 years after the great tribulation and teh Jews return to Palestine yet before 80 years expire from World War I.
So if you've got the right interpretation and stop paying attention to twisted and desperate explanations by the WTS, then you can regain confidence in Bible prophecy. Those who have the true understanding, therefore, don't have to twist the generation past the 80 years the Bible allows for a standard lifetime.
The prophecy is true! The WTS is in spiritual darkness and this is just more evidence of it.
Thanks for this interesting topic!
L.G.
satan is called the "father of the lie" because he told the very first lie to eve.. in the beginning, god told adam to go nuts and eat all the fruit except the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden.
he said "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.
so then fast forward, eve was created and she's hanging out by the tree, talking to the serpent (satan) and satan says: "you will not die.
Hi Professor,
You ought not accord the Genesis story as not having some hidden meaning. I know everybody has their take on this, but I'd suggest to you that you not ignore that Satan also got death in this process, thus the rules for the humans about not eating of the the tree of knowledge was a test of Satan's obedience as well.
If you look at the very broad picture, it could be surmised that Satan had already developed some very nasty and irritating flights of grandeur and had become a "resister" to God's way of doing things in heaven. But heaven, before the creation of man, there was probably no "sin" or possibility of sin. Everything in heaven was conceptual; there was no real way to carry out an "evil deed" because that is primarily possible within the realm of the material world. So the only way get rid of Satan and those who wanted to side with him was to set up a situation where there could be LAWS that could be broken and thus SIN and make the penalty for SIN death.
So God created a lesser reality than heaven in the physical world where DEEDS and LAWS could exist and thus also sin and death if one broke those laws. If Satan were instrumental in breaking any of these laws, therefore, he would become legally liable to death.
Satan probably understood this completely, decided he'd rather die in rebellion than serve God, but cruelly decided he would not go alone but will murder billions of potential mankind if he could get Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge and give some of it to Adam.
So Satan fell into the trap, sinned himself by getting Eve to break a simple rule though she was deceived and Adam also ate thus accomplishing the death of Adams unborn potential children. But what Satan probably did not know was about the "Ransom Sacrifice" and "Ressurection". That plan basically said that if another perfect man were willing to die sinless and childness, he could adopt Adam's children and reverse the curse of death and those faithful children of Adam could have eternal life as God intended for the faithful of mankind. Thus Satan's plan backfired. God would arrange for about 6000 years for Adams children to be born in sin, live a short life and die, later to be resurrected and based upon what choices they made during their life, be offered life or undergo the "second death" in the lake of fire. So ultimately, those righteous ones that Satan had planned to murder as part of his rebellion would get saved after all, minimizing Satan's attempt to outsmart God.
The big pay off, though, is that God could now legally and legitimately destroy Satan forever in the lake of fire, cleansing the heavens of he and all his rebellious followers.
So when looking at the big picture the Genesis scenario makes more sense. The test of obedience was just as much for Satan as it was for Adam and Eve. In the end though, Satan helped God clean up the riff raff in both heaven and earth and after the millennium and Judgment Day, all will be a wonderful heaven and earth per God's plan.
That's just another take on the Genesis story.
By the way, the length of a "day" in the Bible varies from 24 hours, 1000 years or 7,000 years (A creative day). Since Adam did not die within 24 hours but died under 1000 years we can understand the reference to his dying that "day" as a reference to the 1000-year day. So there's no scriptural contradiction here as far as God telling the truth. And of course, they did die so Satan did end up being a liar. He willingly murdered them knowing that God would have to kill him based upon his laws; therefore, his own permanent death in the lake of fire is well justified.
L.G.
well, some buggers pulled the "finished mystery" link i was using, off the net.so i cant cut and paste the quotes i was going to use.. .
concluding on the matter of that famous/infamous book (and also, in fact, the entirety of the teachings of ct russell).
i am caused to wonder,.
You said that Russell publically denied being the "faithful and wise servant" do you have a reference for this?
My reference to this is only what has been stated by the WTS, specifically in the 1975 Yearbook and later in the "Proclaimers" where they quote the early reference. But if you have more direct information where he publically identified himself as the FDS then that would just be proof of more lying by the WTS who claims he never "publicly" admitted it.
So if you can get the direct quotes for us from those references you mentioned that would be great!! Other than that, I'm not aware of Russell changing his mind about that issue.
But the MAIN POINT is that, as debatable and vague as that might be; he may have only insinuated an individual but never directly applied it to himself, the "7th Volume" does this directly and thus it became upfront OFFICIAL WTS DOCTRINE for ten years via the "7th volume" until 1927 when they, indeed, did change this reference.
If you can get ahold of the 1975 YearBook the quotes are there for the references, but of course, they are covering up the fact that Rutherford was a pro-Russellite FDS campaigner shortly after his death, stating as noted that the book was designed to PROVE he was this FDS. I don't have access to all my reference materials right now.
If you can come up with the referenes you mention then we can make a comparison and I will stand corrected if Russell did change his mind earlier.
Thanks!
L.G.
now i know that a few of you would give me some sarcastic answers as to why to believe in it, or maybe i should say, have faith in the god who inspired it.. but i want to know why a person should believe in it?
i know that i want to, i want to believe in a god who cares for us, i want to believe that he will put an end to the misery that surrounds us, i want to believe in a hope for the future.. i am not trying to be idealistic either.
but is there solid evidence to believe in it.
To Carmel regarding:
But the return of the Jews to Palistine did not begin in 1947. The most significant event in recent history with regard to the "return of the Jews" was the signing of the Edict of Toleration by the Turks in 1844. Due to sever treatment of Muslims who converted to Christianity....
Sorry, my point should have been more specifically the "end of the gentile times" and the "trampling of Jerusalem" would be perceived to have ended when the Jews themselves regained control over the native homeland. That didn't happen until 1947. The Jews set up the "State of Israel" several months later. 1844 might have been the beginning of the return but the "official" end of the gentiles controlling Israel ended in 1947. Certainly you can understand the significance here.
At any rate, Biblically, 1947 is focussed on because it is the 50th jubilee since 455BCE, a Jubilee being the time for the return of land and freedom from servitude, so it had special significance this year. Jubilees occur every 49 years in the first year of the 49-year year period, thus being the 50th when counting the previous "week of years".
Anyway, I don't mind if you focus on 1844 as "another interpretation"; problem is, you have to coordinate it with other Biblical chronology. The 1335 days has to coordinate with the mid-70th week. The 70th week closest to 1947 or 1844 is 1989 to 1996 with mid-week from 1992-1993. So given the choice of 1844 or 1947 as to which event fits 45 years earlier than 1992-1993, I'm afraid 1844 is a bit of a stretch. 1947 seems to the right date and thus correct interpretation as far as I can tell.
:>
well, some buggers pulled the "finished mystery" link i was using, off the net.so i cant cut and paste the quotes i was going to use.. .
concluding on the matter of that famous/infamous book (and also, in fact, the entirety of the teachings of ct russell).
i am caused to wonder,.
Interesting topic. My only comment would be you should use "Russel's teachings" loosely when applying it to the 7th Volume. The Forward of the Book claims it was written to prove Russell was the "faithful and wise servant" something he publically denied.
In addition, as recently as volume 6 of "Studies in the Scriptures" it was noted that Revelation's reference to the dragon was Satan himself as the Bible says. The 7th Volume contradicts that and assigns another meaning.
This book was the work of J.F. Rutherford without the help of the original editors who worked with Russell who would have never written this book or approved it. Rutherford knew this and thus had the book financed privately (the first edition before he gained control over the company). I wouldn't thus exactly call it Russell's teachings but more clearly Rutherford's.
Speaking of "cover-up" though, the current WTS doesn't acknowledge that it was a critical change in WTS doctrine that the "faithful and wise servant" was Russell as promoted in the 7th volume. They insinuate only some dissident followers of Russell "adopted" that belief for a while for some reason and it was later cleared up in 1927. They don't admit that it was WBTS new doctrine and required reading for 10 years in the 7th volume. If claiming Russell was the "faithful and wise servant" was an apostate teaching, then their own President, JF Rutherford, was the Chief Apostate since it was the writings in this book that changed the doctrine about Russell being the FAWS (FDS).
By the way, the first edition was published by the "People's Pulpit Society" independent of the WBTS, but after Rutherford got full control of the organization and ousted the other board members later editions were put out by the WBTS. It was by far the largest selling book by the organization up to that time.
Just a few more details.
Anyway, the "cover up" is still going on!!!
Thanks for the post!
the trinity my thoughts.
the thought behind the trinity is not so hard to understand or appreciate if you approach if from a philosophical viewpoint.
you must look beyond the obvious.
According to some, the "666" Beast represents Christendom and the 666 is a symbol of the trinity doctrine, which puts it in bad light.
But it proves it would be a dominant belief system for Christendom and thus not that easily overturned.
My thoughts are that you might be able to fit the trinity doctrine into the Bible, but you can't fit the Bible into the trinity doctrine. That's because for some, for instance, Jesus Christ is the archangel Michael and a PERSON who actually died and had to be resurrected which is not consistent with his being the same person as God.
So I can understand how some can see in some scriptures a basis that would be consistent with the trinity or God being more than one person; that's one thing. But it's the other scriptures that don't fit force another understanding.
But the Bible basically, I think, tells us the relationship between God and Jesus and that is like Father and Son. Since when is a son equal to a father? Since when is a son not "begotten" after the father? The Father-Son relationship fundamentally is contra-trinitarian.
So while I can see why some find it convincing to hold onto the trinity doctrine; its also easy to be convinced Jesus is Michael the arhangel. You can't have it both ways though. People make their choices.
L.G.
now i know that a few of you would give me some sarcastic answers as to why to believe in it, or maybe i should say, have faith in the god who inspired it.. but i want to know why a person should believe in it?
i know that i want to, i want to believe in a god who cares for us, i want to believe that he will put an end to the misery that surrounds us, i want to believe in a hope for the future.. i am not trying to be idealistic either.
but is there solid evidence to believe in it.
Why believe the Bible?
It's fulfilled prophecies is one reason. For us, the JIOR, who see all the details of the second coming happening precisely, we have lots of faith in the Bible. Everything has happened right on time as the Bible prophesied. But you have to have the right interpretation.
For instance: The "great tribulation" is supposed to be over before the second coming! The WTS thinks it is a reference to Armageddon even though Matthew 24:29 says: "IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS...." The correct interpretation is that the "flesh" that almost got extinguished was that of the Jews during the HOLOCAUST.
The Bible prophesied the punishment of the Jews would "end" and they would return from exile and they did in 1947 which would also end the 1290 days. The Bible says: "Happy is the one in expectation of the 1335 days"; that is, 45 years later the Messiah would arrive.
For the JIOR who witnessed the "sign of the son of man in the skies" had that fulfilled plus some other miracles of holy spirit.
So if you're on the real inside of the spiritual organization, especially now, you have very high confidence in the Bible being a truly inspired book.
But you know, peoplew want to play both sides of the fence. When the Bible, for instance says that Darius I died in his sixth year, then people turn away from the Bible and trust secular records claiming he ruled for 36 years, even the WTS! So it makes you doubt the Bible. Fortunately, for us JIOR enough secular research into historical records and astronomical texts have proven that the Persian history was revised and the Bible's chronology is specifically correct. So, again, our faith was confirmed.
Case in point is the SK400 which first showed that Nebuchadnezzar's 7th year fell in 541BCE meaning Jerusalem must have fallen in 529BCE. That's where that date first came from! But the WTS and general reference is that the 70 years began the same year Jerusalem fell! Thus even though dating correctly the 1st of Cyrus in 455BCE back then were still dating the fall of Jerusalem 70 years earlier in 525BCE. But only with additional research because of this eclipse record was it discovered and later confirmed by Josephus that the 70 years did, indeed, begin 4 years after the fall of Jerusalem at the last deportation! Thus this ancient secular eclipse record, actually exposed a MISINTERPRETATION of the scriptures that drew into question the accuracy of the Bible.
So, again, a lot of faith is based upon whether one fully trusts the Bible AND are able to get the right interpretation. That is not always easy and so many have a gap in their faith with the Bible. But for those who trusted all the way in the beginning, what they had has been added to and now they have no doubt the Bible is accurate and rely upon it to predict the upcoming future events.
So I can understand why some have problems believing the Bible, and that's unfortunate. False teachings by the WTS and Christendom certainly don't help. But for some anointed ones who are inside the JIOR there is absolutely no issue about the Bible being true or inspired because we see so many things completely fulfilled, including the second advent of Christ which the requires to occur in 1992. But how can anyone without a lot of faith accept that? It's hard. But for those who figured it out before, they witnessed the second coming and their faith was rewarded.
Thus I understand why some people feel left out by the Bible, but for others of us, this doubt does not apply, we are on an all-time Biblical high. It would be nice to share that with others, but without the initial faith in the truth of God's word, it's very hard to get to that point. You see, God gives more to those that already have a lot of faith. He adds miracles to the written word. But for those with little faith and doubts, that is taken from then and they will have even less faith in the Bible: "He that has nothing even what he has will be taken from him....he that has much, MORE will be granted." So that has come true.
It's a very nice place to be...on the inside of the kingdom now happening "in your midst". I'm just glad I'm one of the people who originally trusted.
Bottom line, for some of us, the spiritual ones, it's extremely easy to believe and trust the scriptures.
L.G.
