Posts by DarioKehl

9

Advice and Experiences, Please...

by DarioKehl in

i've had a rough time lately with my jw relatives.

they are aware of my spiritually weakened condition and have known about my doubts for some time.

i would like to hear your experiences about "coming out" to your loved ones.

DarioKehl

Ok. Thanks for the advice, guys.

@ Desirous: I plan to make my decision based on feedback. I would never "do it anyway." I've seen many examples of people making poor decisions after receiving feedback that they didn't agree with. I'm making an honest inquiry and based on the advice I've seen so far, I've cancelled this idea entirely. When I posted this, I really hadn't made up my mind.

I probably will write something up and destroy it immediately after just as an exercise in therapy. Or, I might just compose this manifesto and leave it in a safety deposit box or something that my relatives could look over if I ever dropped dead for some reason.

At this point, I will let this matter rest. Only if they really push and pry will I ever divulge this information. Perhaps in the meantime, it would be a good exercise to compose something and familiarize it well enough to provide solid responses on the fly?

9

Advice and Experiences, Please...

by DarioKehl in

i've had a rough time lately with my jw relatives.

they are aware of my spiritually weakened condition and have known about my doubts for some time.

i would like to hear your experiences about "coming out" to your loved ones.

DarioKehl

Noted. Thanks for the tip.

What if they've admitted doubts to me themselves in the past? One of them confessed to me privately that they don't buy the flood account at all. Another confided that they had trouble with the idea of the "trumpets" of Revelation being fulfilled by district conventiols (lol). That same person also called me recently after a program about Lucy (the hominid ancestor) and tried to reassure me by saying, "I know, Dario. You don't have to feel ashamed to tell me what exactly is causing your doubts. I heard it today. So, I know. If stuff like that is it, you don't have to dread telling me."

Based on these recent developments, I feel that this is an opportunity to present my case in detail.

159

Believers, do you believe in evolution?

by everchangingworld in

after leaving, i still couldn't wrap my head around evolution (after the years of seing "intelligent design" in everything around me).. there's a series of videos that give a good intro to evolution and critical thinking.

they've probably been posted here before, but, for any new members, these are worth watching.. evolution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdddbyilel0.

critical thinking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6olpl5p0fmg.

DarioKehl

Evolution is like a scaffold.

The "frames" of the scaffolding emerged with Darwin's observations and the generation of the phylogenetic tree. The fact that animals can be categorized in a neat, organized structure based on their characteristics is what got Darwin's gears turning in the first place. Once fossils were discovered and dated, the "platforms" of the scaffolding were added, giving the theory more stability. The phylogenetic tree allowed for a more accurate shape. A "nested hierarchy" of species became clearly visible. Once rock layers were dated and scientists' predictions of transitional species were confirmed (oooh... hello, tiktaalik! a fish with lungs and bony precursors to carpals inside its fins??? in the rock layer predicted??? wow!), this scaffolding was sturdy enough to support weight.

Since then, the "wingnuts" are being added! After the Human Genome project was completed, science moved on to sequencing other specific genomes and guess what happened! The phylogenetic map almost perfectly overlaid the phylogenetic tree that observation and fossils already had in place. Where it didn't overlay perfectly, it actually made the thing tighter. Retroposons, shared pseudogenes and genetic plagiarism are the tightening fasteners on this scaffold. It's solid and sturdy enough to get OSHA approval and cannot be written off as having weak integrity.

9

Advice and Experiences, Please...

by DarioKehl in

i've had a rough time lately with my jw relatives.

they are aware of my spiritually weakened condition and have known about my doubts for some time.

i would like to hear your experiences about "coming out" to your loved ones.

DarioKehl

One more thing...

I have thought about the potential hazard of putting this all in writing. That's why I want to structure the wording of it diplomatically enough to not trigger an investigation if it were forwarded to or shared with a body of elders. At this point (based on prior conversations I've had with them), I doubt my relatives would pass it along to anyone else.

9

Advice and Experiences, Please...

by DarioKehl in

i've had a rough time lately with my jw relatives.

they are aware of my spiritually weakened condition and have known about my doubts for some time.

i would like to hear your experiences about "coming out" to your loved ones.

DarioKehl

I've had a rough time lately with my JW relatives. They are aware of my spiritually weakened condition and have known about my doubts for some time. I would like to hear your experiences about "coming out" to your loved ones. Right now, I'm thinking about sending a lovingly-worded packet laying it all out for them.

Have any of you gone about it that way? What was the result?

I would like to include a firm message about my atheism (without saying that word). The point of this message would not be to persuade them in any way and I plan to begin the whole thing reassuring them that that's not the case. They have questions and have even admitted to me they're very curious and interested but don't want to come off as nosey or pushy. The purpose of this would be to send a clear message: "ok, you want to know, so here it is..."

This would be an informative work. I want to share with them what science, history, archeology and anthropology say. I want to explain the difference between a scholastic study of the bible and a theological study. I want to avoid WBTS altogether and focus on the global picture. "Here's what's out there and to affiliate myself with any religion or faith, I must ignore this mountain of physical evidence. I am unable to do that because that would make me a liar."

I also want to go into deep detail about the enormous emotional toll this has had on me for the past decade or so. I need them to know how I've felt utterly helpless facing this dilema because of the gut-wrenching choices I'd eventually have to make. I want to clearly emphasize that this isn't a choice. I cannot choose to believe. And I would never choose to put them or myself in a painful situation. Religion is making that choice for us. And across the board, religions do this to everyone around the world, not just this one. I want to make it clear that I have no intentions of leaving the bOrg or taking anyone out with me. I want to make it clear that I will not submit a DA letter or share my doubts with the elders at my local congregation--this is strictly a family correspondence and needs to remain private. This is to pacify them, to address their questions and concerns and to hopefully alleviate some of their guilt and fear. However, I plan to ask them for their utmost respect in my secular humanism. They need to understand that to attend meetings, participate in FS and give anymore credence to the "last days" outlook will not be on the table. I want to send a clear message that we must maintain our family bond at all costs, despite what they now know (if nothing else, to set a good example for our non-JW relatives). The only quote I will include is the one from Awake about no one should be forced to choose between religion and family. There will be no blaming whatsoever. No guiltrips on them and no harsh criticism of WT or the JWs themselves.

The tone of this would be loving, informative and specific. I want to include sources and references from science and history books only (and peer-reviewed journals). I know how to structure the packet in an organized format. The composition would anticipate their questions and address each one as they review it. I will not offer a challenge to refute my presentation (if this is composed successfully, they won't be able to challenge it). The final purpose would be to leave things solely in their hands. They would have to make the choice about how to proceed from here. My goal is to leave them no room at all to blame me for any of this and to know that my door will remain open for them no matter what.

I just fear their response. I've feared it for years, but I cannot move on until this is elephant is finally addressed in a concise, formal manner. I plan to go in to detail about the internal mental struggle this has had on my life and is the reason why I can't seem to move forward and make any healthy progress in my adulthood. For those of you who have done this, how did you muster the courage to take this leap and send off your "manifesto?" Was your prediction accurate or were you surprised? Have there been any favorable outcomes? I do not expect them to leave--ever. I just hope they understand and don't decide to mark me off for good. I mean... how can they hold me accountable for accepting cold hard facts? ...Right?

Wish me luck! I'll start the outline this weekend.

46

marijuana

by Honeybucket in

update from an elder:.

you cannot be a witness if you grow pot.

they say the fed government on growing squashes state law or iniatives.

DarioKehl

Yet it's entirely OK for elders, piosneers, COs and DOs to be totally enslaved by caffine. And 90% of the dubs I know go overboard with alcohol (which is far more damaging on the body.)

I recently had a conversation about edible cannabinol (THC) with an elder. He said, if it's legal in the state you live in for medical reasons and you're not doing it for recreational use, the elders really can't enforce anything. He spoke from experience having recently dealt with the issue in his congregation. However, he did say that it would have to be administered by ingestion or vaporization. Smoking would still be prohibited due to the damaging effect of smoke on the lungs. Cancer patients would especially receive more leeway. They will strongly advise the patient to keep it confidential as it would introduce a huge stumbling situation within the KHall.

64

I am currently reading " The GOD delusion" by Richard Dawkins and would appreciate comments from those who have read it,pro &con.

by smiddy in

i`m only halfway through chapter 4 and enjoying what i have read so far .so why am i asking for peoples comments now ?

the reason i have is this : i wish i had done something like this when i first was approached by the witnesses ,i beleive i would have been more informed to make some enlightened decisisions that would eventually shape my future .. whereas not doing so i spent the next 33 years a slave of the watchtower , and not just me but my wife and children , not that i`m suggesting i would be a slave of richard dawkins , but i can weigh up the pros and cons as i progress through his book ,then hopefully i can draw the right conclusions , if their are any.. smiddy.

.

DarioKehl

LOVE it. It's a gem. And if you have kids or teenagers, get his book The Magic of Reality. It's wonderfully illustrated and the illustrations and analogies he uses really break down the evolution theory in a meaningful and understandable way.

As far as the God Delusion goes, my absolute favorite part was when he addressed the question every emergent skeptic or budding atheist asks at some point: If evolution is "survival of the fittest" and nature selects against waste and extravagance, why has religion not evolved out of our species long ago? Why would expending so much time, resources and energy into building massive granite cathedrals and marble temples not have made us more vulnerable? Why would such a destructive practice still thrive after thousands of years of bloodshed and strife? Have you got to that part of the book yet? His reasoning on this question is profound. Many people say that religion prompts wars which allow for "population control." But he refutes that idea quite handily. Let me know what you thought of his "moth and candle" analogy.

4

Turtle's Pace: I'm Just Now Getting to Anger Phase. Pardon the Free Writing

by DarioKehl in

i woke up mentally in mid 2007. i rebounded, returning to super "spiritual" immersion as a last ditch effort to put my skepticism to the test 2008-2009. thank the fsm for the internet because any vestige of faith in wbts or belief in their tyrant god was gone by 2010. by then, i was successfully faded, 100% mentally out and 95% atheist.

i hate them for what they've done to me.

the best way is to let them take their bike out on their own and learn things their way.

DarioKehl

I woke up mentally in mid 2007. I rebounded, returning to super "spiritual" immersion as a last ditch effort to put my skepticism to the test 2008-2009. Thank the FSM for the internet because any vestige of faith in WBTS or belief in their tyrant god was gone by 2010. By then, I was successfully faded, 100% mentally out and 95% atheist. Now in 2012, I'm 100% atheist, bordering on anti-theism. A therapist would probably tell me that the rage and hate I have for all religion isn't healthy, but I try to relieve the pressure in a variety of ways: exercise, creative projects, discovering new hobbies and adding to my roster of "worldly" friends. Talking about it and sharing my story with others helps too.

The depression, anxiety, insonmia, lethargy, paranoia and non-stop obsession about friends and family still inside has waned quite a bit. It was rough 2009-2011. From most books I've read and with many people on this forum, others seem to go through the mental and emotional steps of the exit process at a much faster pace. I've seen some people fly thru the phases in weeks! Mine take months or years.

Since September, I've noticed a lot more anger. I hate what the men in this organization do to people. I hate them for what they've done to me. However, I've managed to preserve rational thought. I don't take it personally. I can't. There are 12 million other victims on planet earth. But each time I learn TTATT or discover a fascinating historical, scientific or archeological fact that contradicts JW doctrine, I feel so enraged. How dare they prevent me from discovering these things much earlier? How dare they quote mine, data bomb, misrepresent, misquote and mislead me by tweaking their reference sources to get me to think the way they want me to think? How dare they deprive me of precious memories with my non-JW friends and relatives? How dare they strip away my individuality, self esteem and confidence? How dare they make me work so hard for them, only to endure increasing crap at the local level everytime I rose in rank? How dare they screw me up so much in the head that I'll never enjoy a normal sex life--or even know what one is like! How dare they tromp around on that stage at the annual meeting and dish out more bile and venom--new light--that they call "meat in due season?"

I hate them on a deep, personal level. I hate those men. They've got the blood of thousands on their balding heads. They've got the protection of the US Constitution to continue their dangerous and deadly operation. They're permitted to freely and openly prey upon the masses while calling "foul" on anyone who dares to stand up and question or refute them. They're small enough not to be newsworthy but large enough to destroy generations of people globally. They're permitted to publish hate speech. They're permitted to target children with the most sinister use of new media. They're permitted to keep things secret from the rank and file. They're permitted to mislead unsuspecting people in their recruiting process. They're permitted to send people to their deaths, destroy families and prevent people from pursuing their dreams. They're permitted to change their mind and edit their own history.

No other corporation on earth would be permitted to engage in this behavior. They wouldn't dare to. WBTS does dare. And the only reason is because they know they can get away with it. The most heinous forms of emotional, sexual and physical abuse get a free pass every time if it's done in the name of religion. JWs aren't the only ones. You all know that. Religion is a systemic cancer on this planet!

Upon my mental exit, I felt so alone. In reaching out to others, I've noticed the global trend of awakening has increased dramatically--especially since YouTube and Google arrived on the scene. Even though I have many friends and family on the inside I'd love to rescue, part of me takes comfort in the fact that I too at one time was an uber-dub. If I can "fall," they can too. I'm positive they've seen opposing views on their google searches. Back in the 80s and 90s, it took work to find "apostate" literature. You practically had to go to them or stand there and listen to the scary guy behind the bullhorn at conventions. Not the case anymore, is it? From the privacy of their homes or on the go, they can access the same info that woke me up from their computers or smart phones. I am confident that the awakening is a lot larger than what we are able to discern visually. I believe there is a huge number of closeted JWs who are awake and are just now entering the phases I began in 2007. I believe this is only the beginning. I believe in the near future, there will emerge an even more powerful force on YouTube (a new personality to reach millions of views, not just thousands). I believe new books, new podcasts and perhaps even a new TV series (similar to "Breaking Amish") or South Park episode will arrive (that South Park about the Mormons woke so many of them up!!!).

One thing that helps me keep my anger suppressed enough to not blow my cover around friends or family is to stay "regular in my reading." Most of you may facepalm at that, but I do enjoy reading the current magazines! For the first time in my life, I actually look forward to their release and I read everything all the way through. It's enjoyable because I read them, not to "be fed," but to analyze, critique and locate the logical fallacies. But the real benefit in reading them is, it puts me back in their mindset. It reminds me what my friends and family still think, feel and believe. It allows me to perfect my cover and act as a double agent. When I've got my "dub goggles" on, I understand how friends and families stuck inside would react to an angry tirade. It would scare them to death--I would've been terrified to hear an anti-JW rant a few years ago! In this case, it's kind of like teaching a kid to ride a bike. If you're with them every step of the way and explaining how you learned, it will drive them crazy--perhaps even discourage them from wanting to ever learn! The best way is to let them take their bike out on their own and learn things their way. That's what I'm going to do. I'm invested in the long term. I've suffered silently this long and, I have to admit, I've really brushed up on my acting skills with this double agent gig! I'm a pretty good thespian! They'll eventually learn TTATT. And because I've been there/done that, I know what kind of clues to look for. When I see the change in stamina, behavior, mood and lower frequency of JW activity show up, I'll draw them out. Privately. Gently. Lovingly. One thing that helped me is finding a friend who agreed that "anything I say is to remain secret--even if it shocks, scares or offends." I will offer them that assurance. I know this will happen with family members and soon. Once I have one relative on my side, I'll feel much better about coming out to the rest of them. Strength in numbers, I guess. That's what I'm waiting for.

RE: "double agent" life...

I feel like the spaniard in "Atlas." I feel like Ben on "LOST." I feel like the bad girl on season one of "24." I feel like Gustavo Fring on "Breaking Bad." They're all characters who had a totally hidden double life and when it was revealed, it shocked the audience. I always admired them, even before waking up. Their "real" selves were the ones in the hidden double life, but they sure had to spend a lot of time immersed in the life they knew they'd eventually escape. I feel like that. I have a golden key into this mental paradise of freedom and happiness, but make frequent visits back into this dystopic reality in a desparate attempt to hold that door open for them when they wake up and decide to run. I'll be there like Harriet Tubman and her underground railroad. We will all play under the sun and sip champagne someday. That's MY new system and THIS is my new ministry. I have something new for which to hope.

Thanks for reading. I'm spent.

33

Can a JWs Elder be "removed" if his wife is known as the congregation "gossip"?

by booker-t in

jw
friends

i remember in my kingdom hall one of our 5 elders bro.

"smith" had a gossipy wife sis "smith" who would be known to gossip from the time she enter the hall until she left.

i don't know how she never was reproved or counseled for her gossiping.

DarioKehl

I always assumed it was a prerequisite to be an elder's wife. I knew one just like that, Booker-t! It wouldn't surprise me if you went to the same KH that I did.

50

Baptismal Questions CHANGE AGAIN!

by raymond frantz in

i attended recently a circuit assembly and notice a change in the wording of the 2nd baptismal question .it used to be :.

"do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of jehovah's witnesses in association with god's spirit-directed organization?

now they changed it to :.

DarioKehl

The use of "association" twice in the same sentence just sounds wierd. What's the difference in meaning between "appointed" and "anointed?" What's the significance of this? I'm sure this change was done for a reason.