Thanks guys! It sure is good to hear from you all again. I've really missed it. Between being busy and having H2O disappear and the chaos that followed I'm glad I found this place.
Liberty
JoinedPosts by Liberty
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3
C-14, Science, and The Bible for Uncle Onion
by Liberty inhi uncle onion, i think we have talked before on the old h2o.
i just wanted to say that i'm glad your curiousity is so strong cause it keeps us-skeptic-science-lover-types on our toes.
i've enjoyed your discussion with amazing about c-14 and can't begin to do a better job than amazing or alan f on this kind of thing but i just wanted to point out that there are mounds of evidence proving that life has been on earth for millions of years even if c-14 dating was completely discredited(which it has not been).. firstly, since you have a healthy interest in such things i would strongly recommend that you take an introductory geology class at a local jr. college or university, some thing like " history of the earth" and you will be amazed by what the bible fails to mention and you will understand why college was discouraged by the wt society for so long.
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C-14, Science, and The Bible for Uncle Onion
by Liberty inhi uncle onion, i think we have talked before on the old h2o.
i just wanted to say that i'm glad your curiousity is so strong cause it keeps us-skeptic-science-lover-types on our toes.
i've enjoyed your discussion with amazing about c-14 and can't begin to do a better job than amazing or alan f on this kind of thing but i just wanted to point out that there are mounds of evidence proving that life has been on earth for millions of years even if c-14 dating was completely discredited(which it has not been).. firstly, since you have a healthy interest in such things i would strongly recommend that you take an introductory geology class at a local jr. college or university, some thing like " history of the earth" and you will be amazed by what the bible fails to mention and you will understand why college was discouraged by the wt society for so long.
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Liberty
Hi Uncle Onion, I think we have talked before on the old H2O. I just wanted to say that I'm glad your curiousity is so strong cause it keeps us-skeptic-science-lover-types on our toes. I've enjoyed your discussion with Amazing about C-14 and can't begin to do a better job than Amazing or Alan F on this kind of thing but I just wanted to point out that there are mounds of evidence proving that life has been on Earth for millions of years even if C-14 dating was completely discredited(which it has not been).
Firstly, since you have a healthy interest in such things I would strongly recommend that you take an introductory Geology class at a local Jr. College or University, some thing like " History of the Earth" and you will be amazed by what the Bible fails to mention and you will understand why college was discouraged by the WT Society for so long. I think you would really enjoy it and don't worry cause lot's of us "old fogies" are going back to college now days. I study this stuff as a hobby now and have taken many hours of Geology and Paleontology. Thanks to the fanatical opposition of the Watch Tower to science, especially earth sciences, I was very curious about these things and thanks to the WT's history of falsehood and distortion in all matters I am now a(literal) Bible skeptic. The fields of Archeology and Anthropology are also fascinating and quickly disprove the WT's chronology and screwy "logic".
The most surprising discovery for me was learning about Scientific Method and that scientists aren't a united group inspired and directed by Satan to discredit the Bible. In fact, each scientist is competing with the others in the search for truth fighting it out with evidence and filling the evidence gaps out with unconventional conjectures which are constantly tested,argued, scrutinized, and then retested. Scientists are not united and this is essential to Scientific Method as competition and ego keeps everybody honest. This is very different from how the bosses at the old Watch Tower Society formulate their theories cause they never have to answer their critics. What ever you see today that a majority of scientists can agree upon is supported by the best known overwhelming evidence and, even then, if a maverick proves it wrong it will be changed and a new paradigm will be formulated. There is no grand scheme to discredit the Bible as science started as an attempt to prove that the Bible was true and when the facts rolled in these early scientists were honest enough to call a spade a spade despite their personal faith and preconcieved notions. The Bible discredits itself easily without a conspiracy because it is not a fact or History book but rather a collection of ancient writings by government scribes and priests who had motives and prejudices just like the "pagan" writings from the same eras. As a JW it was easy to poo-poo scientists and their "crazy" theories because we had no clue about the real truth but most of us here now suspect that the Society lied to us on many levels so why not on their opinions about Science?
Best regards,
Liberty -
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WTB&TS As Moral Compass
by Francois inincredible tale of jaw-dropping, eye-popping dishonesty from the borg!.
my father, who continues to be in the borg, managed the construction of one of those 48-hour wonders several years ago.
just a few months later, someone had a "welcome to the neighborhood bonfire" um, using the new kh as the bonfire.. the new hall was, of course, insured and application was duly made for payment so that another soaring, magnificent testament to man's spiritual longing could be constructed.. well.
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Liberty
As I recall the entire Kingdom Hall building thing is a Society scam from day one. First they give the local congregation a loan with interest to build with. All us JWs come out and build the thing for free then the Society has another fleecing station to generate more slave labor recruitment, mag and book sales , and best of all contributions. The best is yet to come however, when this congregation must pay back the building loan with interest and then sign over the ownership back to the Watch Tower Society when it's all paid for. To add insult to injury, and this really pushed my Dad over the edge into complete inactivity, the Society had preached for years that we as JWs couldn't sell things to "Christendom" that we knew would be used to for "false worship" because we would be blood guilty in Jehovah's eyes. My Dad worked for a super market and had been criticized for being part of the process of selling trees later used by "evil pagans" for Christmas celebrations and holiday fruit baskets used as gifts, and Easter and Valentine's flowers etc. Well as our congregation shrank in the late 70's and early 80's the Society decided that it wasn't economicaly feasable to have two Kingdom Halls in our town any more so they took two shrinking congregations and combined them into one Kingdom Hall which wasn't ours. So the Society then sold our Kingdom Hall which we had built and cared for all those years and sold it to,you guessed it, a Baptist church. If that's not selling something to Christendom for direct "false worship" and contributing to the "damnation" of 100s then I don't know what is. My Dad was furious, how, he said, was it wrong to sell raw undecorated trees and fruit to people who MIGHT use them for a "pagan" holiday but it's ok to sell a building to a church when you know what it will be used for. The answer, of coarse, is that the Society wanted the money and it wanted it now so that made it ok. I have gone to "worldly" churches since leaving the JWs and each of their congregations own their own buildings and pay interest to a bank. Most national councils don't see their buildings as get-rich-real-estate schemes but as places of worship, unlike the mighty Watch Tower Society.
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24
need help
by ttwho ini wrote this to randy walters last year and would like your views on it.. .
dear randall.
i have a lot to say but won't bore with the details, a brief introduction would be appropriate.
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Liberty
Please read my post to you titled,"Demonic attacks and other wierdness for Ttwho" posted before you wrote this one.
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Demonic attacks and other wierdness. For Ttwho
by Liberty inhi ttwho,.
i was concerned by your response to my post about the paranormal because it seems you have suffered more than your share wierdness.
i feel a bit guilty because i said talking about this stuff is "fun".
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Liberty
Hi Ttwho,
I was concerned by your response to my post about the paranormal because it seems you have suffered more than your share wierdness. I feel a bit guilty because I said talking about this stuff is "fun". It is alot like telling ghost stories around the campfire so there is an element of entertainment(fun) but I realize that it's not always fun for the persons who suffered through these types of events. In your case, these attacks happen so much that it's gone beyond a little scare once in a while and into a health threatening problem. I was very glad to hear that once you quit the Watch Tower Society and its superstitious obsessions the frequency of your attacks has deminished. I think this is evidence of an improved mental state because of the reduced stress from not being an active JW. It also seems you have begun to feel the relief that comes from reducing your hold on the traditional god concept.
I show my own atheistic leanings here but my life has been much better without worrying about God. I figure that if God was real He, She, or It wouldn't really require my worship or anxiety about worship to exist anyway. Humans seek to have power over Nature(God?) so we invented the concept that God( the gods) demands our worship and acknowledgment in order to be whole and that we, in return, recieve comfort, protection,favours....in short, some measure of control over the chaotic Universe we are tossed about in. Logically, if God exists as an all powerful(omnipotent) Creator, then we(and our beliefs) are certainly not necessary to the maintainence of His existance. A truely merciful and all powerful God would require nothing from us and we would be free to explore and discover His Universe unharrased and free of wondering what He might require of us. We are afraid of the unknown so we invent a God concept which has what we do not,knowledge of all things(omniprescience). We think that He can be bribed into revealing some of this knowledge to us if only we believe in and worship Him correctly, hence we gain some control for ourselves. This concept seems idiotic to me. As if God could be bribed, as if He needed our attention to be complete. This human madness has lead to disaster on a societal scale and mental illness on an individual level. Nightmares and monsters obsess us because we are unsure we have God's attention as we spin out of control in this demon haunted Universe of random chance and sudden death.
I have found comfort and sleep much better knowing that the Gods of the Watch Tower, Jehovah & Satan, do not exist and that if there is a God at all He is neutral toward me like this chaotic Universe because I am blissfully unimportant and therefor completely free of mythical conflicts betwen good and evil. It seems strange that I should live with less fear and anxiety now that I have rejected the Watch Tower and even traditional Christianity but this is truely the case. Reason and logic combat fear and ignorance and I embrace my place falling through the void of the Universe aware that this would be the case despite my strongest beliefs to the contrary. Belief in God or Satan cannot make them real nor less real. They either are or they are not and I can do nothing about it. Perhaps I am left alone by the demonic hoards because I am not obsessed with their reality. They either are or they are not. If they are powerful and rebellious "spirit sons of God" then I am logically powerless to prevent their attacks anyway if God allows them free reign. To me reciting God's name is the same as wearing garlic, sacrificing chickens, or howling at the Moon in order to keep the demons away. These acts of desparation are illusional games of control to make us feel more powerful and in control in case God has forgotten to protect us and we must bribe Him to remember just like a human policeman. This deminishes God if such a being exists.
I say all this to comfort myself and others who have suffered the mental stress of being pawns in the Watch Tower's imaginary "battle for Universal Sovereignty" where the fate of the Universe weighs heavily on our shoulders as Jehovah and Satan fight it out proving to us who is worthy to rule. What utter nonsense! Yet I once stressed myself to the point of illness convinced of the reality of this insanity. Ttwho, you too are now on your way to a better life. I don't know all the causes of your attacks but the fact that they occur less often is proof enough that you are on the right path to freeing yourself from your own delusions which were fueled by the Watch Tower and its power hungry abuse of its frieghtened and weakened victims taken easily from the traditional Christian establishment's own power games.
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Demons,ghosts,& wierd happenings
by Liberty ini love this subject.
i just wanted to point out that i am not a complete skeptic about these things i just think that there are many possible explainations besides the standard jw "it was demons" response.
firstly, i'd like to reinterate that i respect the reality of your experiances in the realm of the para-normal so i'm not arguing that you are all lying or that you're crazy, i am merely questioning the cause of the event.
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Liberty
I love this subject. I just wanted to point out that I am not a complete skeptic about these things I just think that there are many possible explainations besides the standard JW "IT WAS DEMONS" response. Firstly, I'd like to reinterate that I respect the reality of your experiances in the realm of the para-normal so I'm not arguing that you are all lying or that you're crazy, I am merely questioning the cause of the event. Demons(fallen angels) and classic ghosts( as lost souls) just don't make much sense to me as explainations because these strange sightings,noises,and activities seem to usually be confined and limited in ways that a powerful demon or a conscious soul wouldn't be.
I used the example of why ghosts/demons rarely if ever manifest themselves while we are at work or when we are carrying out our business in public. If the JW-style demons REALLY existed why would these places be off limits? Are they only allowed to haunt us at night in private homes when we are alone or around a few other people? It seems to me that powerful spirit beings would have even fewer limitatons on what they could do than physical beings, not more. So why don't they show up while we are at work or at the World Series stadium during a big game? I joked that maybe they have union rules that restrict the type,times, and locations for harrasing humans but if they are real this seems to be the case. Why don't we ever hear about a guy at work who's filing paperwork when his co-workers notice a floating head chattering behind him or plates of food flying through the air by themselves at busy restaurants full of people? I think there are reasons why wierd things happen when and where they do and that these limitations are clues to the real causes of para-normal activity.
Ghosts may be recorded and replayed energy trapped in a magnetic field for instance rather than a disembodied soul which may explain why so many ghost repeat the same actions and "haunt" the same places. Poltergeist activity maybe telekinetic powers generated by the human mind rather than an evil spirit. Attacks by unseen beings may be the result of a brain malfunction or a dream state. and on and on. I'm just saying that it's a big Universe out there and that alot of explainations are alot more probable than naughty angels on a rampage. Just food for thought. Keep those wierd and scarey stories coming cause they are interesting and just plain fun.
Liberty -
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Demons / Urban Legends! Which Is It????
by Big Jim inhas anyone on this board ever experienced contact with demons?.
i have heard demons talked about for years, however i have never known anyone that has had any real experiences with them, i have only heard storys.. .
(some quotes).
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Liberty
Doubtingsister,
Your experiances were real, they were dreams. Dreams can seem very real because you are really experiancing something just not what you think it is. The real clue to this is that few of us while at work in the middle of our shifts while we are alert and awake have wierd-demonic-ghost encounters. Instead these strange things usually happen at night in bed while or near the sleep state. I have had many strange experiances when I am sleepy but rarely if ever while awake in the coarse of a normal day. If ghosts/demons existed we'd see them all the time in every situation not just when we're alone or at night. Otherwise we must believe they have union rules which specify leaving us alone while at work or in public.
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Demons / Urban Legends! Which Is It????
by Big Jim inhas anyone on this board ever experienced contact with demons?.
i have heard demons talked about for years, however i have never known anyone that has had any real experiences with them, i have only heard storys.. .
(some quotes).
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Liberty
I've come to believe since leaving the "Borg" that demons and even the Devil himself just flat do not exist anywhere except in our own fevered imaginations. I have never seen any evidence for the real existance of these mythical beings and no one but religious fanatics seem to have trouble with them. I would think that"worldly" folks as unbelievers would constantly be harrased by the demonic hoards because they lack "Jehovah's protection" but,like these "evil worldly" people , I have never been bothered once in all my years after leaving. In short, demons, like most JW clap-trap are pure crap. They are a fear tactic used to scare people into submission. Look at the Old Test. of the Bible and you will find that the Devil is barely mentioned at all, which is strange if he is God's arch enemy in the battle of soveriegnty. Can you talk about the conflict in WWII and not mention Hitler once in a while? The whole Devil thing is utter nonsense.
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JW's & alternative medicine
by slipnslidemaster inin one of the threads i read today, they were talking about looking into your eyeballs to diagnose cancer and the like.
also selling herbs.. my comment and question is this: it seemed like in my congregation and the surrounding ones, alot of the sisters were into kineseology, reflexology, herbs, vitamins, color therapy, aroma therapy, etc.. alot of touchy feely hippie crap.
while i personally agree that there needs to be more synergy with eastern and western medicines, it would appear reading the boards that alot of witnesses are into this sort of stuff.. is this your experience?
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Liberty
There is a real pattern you are detecting here. In my JW days they were all into Reflexology and herbs, some even did it for a living. I'm open to alternate med.s but find it immensly hipocrytical for the same JW who won't let you take an Eastern exercise program like Yoga or a martial art like Tai-Kwon-Do will happily use ancient Eastern medical theories formed from Toaism. Just another example of JW incinsistancy.
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Glad I found this place & Questions about H2O
by Liberty init's good to see so many familiar folks here on this sight from the old h2o.
is this(the site we're on now) "simon's site" that some on the new h2o were talking about?
i have nothing against the new h2o but it always causes my netscape connection to crash and it's not as easy to use as the old h2o or this site.
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Liberty
It's good to see so many familiar folks here on this sight from the old H2O. Is this(the site we're on now) "Simon's Site" that some on the new H2O were talking about? I have nothing against the new H2O but it always causes my Netscape connection to crash and it's not as easy to use as the old H2O or this site. It also seems that it has been flooded with Fundies which is fine (they are entitled to express their opinions too) but there doesn't seem to be the balance there that there used to be. Are my observations off the mark or have any of you had the same problems?
In any case, I've been too busy to keep up with these sites so it's good to hear from you all again and I'm glad so many of you are still around. I was real sorry to hear about Bruce Bainbridge. He was a real loon but he had a good heart. I had no idea he had this fatal illness because he didn't use this to get sympathy or win arguments. I'm glad he had a place to fill his time and keep his mind active. I hope I can drop in more often cause there are alot of interesting things you guys discuss just like on the old H2O. I also like the free and open expression here. Glad to be free.
Liberty