I looked up the population for the Roman Empire at the same time as early Christianity and it was around 65,000,000. I took just .01 of population being Christian and got 650,000. I then used 10% (based on "real" anointed old faithfuls from my congregation in the early 1970's) and got 65,000 anointed. This is very conservative but still fills almost 1/2 the slots in just the very early years of Christianity.
Liberty
JoinedPosts by Liberty
-
15
NEW "annointed" since 1935 - hilarious!!!
by hamsterbait ini counted up the deaths/ new partakers over the 71years 1936 to 2007.. i assumed 70 as the average lifespan, which means we can reasonably expect a decline of 1.43% each year.. those dead: 14 707 new partakers: 52 312. .
average deaths each year: 207. average new partakers each year: 737.. this gives a combined total of memorial partakers between 1936 - 2007 of 66 839. according to the witchtower of 1988 15/12 there were 27 006 partakers in 1936. smell anything yet?.
1: where those dying (3 figures) exceeded new partakers (2 or single figure) 16 years out of 71.. 2: at no point did the number of deaths in a year exceed 561.. 3: lowest number of deaths 122 in 2003. lowest number of new partakers 3 in 1988.. 4: highest deaths 561 in 1938. highest number of new partakers 10 677 in 1937.
-
-
-
44
Atheists Bible Quiz - True Believers Beware - You'll Love It...
by besty inhttp://ffrf.org/quiz/bquiz.php.
we found this quiz after reading the book parenting beyond belief and sweetpea and i decided to take the challenge - afterall how difficult can 50 bible questions be for us born and brought up as jw's?.
our results were enlightening to say the least - we both scored 28/50 - not exactly brilliant although apparently above average.. take the quiz and post your results and comments..
-
-
Liberty
I got 37 out of 50. It helps us to see that the Bible, like Mormonism, is dumb dumb dumb dumb.
-
15
NEW "annointed" since 1935 - hilarious!!!
by hamsterbait ini counted up the deaths/ new partakers over the 71years 1936 to 2007.. i assumed 70 as the average lifespan, which means we can reasonably expect a decline of 1.43% each year.. those dead: 14 707 new partakers: 52 312. .
average deaths each year: 207. average new partakers each year: 737.. this gives a combined total of memorial partakers between 1936 - 2007 of 66 839. according to the witchtower of 1988 15/12 there were 27 006 partakers in 1936. smell anything yet?.
1: where those dying (3 figures) exceeded new partakers (2 or single figure) 16 years out of 71.. 2: at no point did the number of deaths in a year exceed 561.. 3: lowest number of deaths 122 in 2003. lowest number of new partakers 3 in 1988.. 4: highest deaths 561 in 1938. highest number of new partakers 10 677 in 1937.
-
-
Liberty
Like all Watch Tower math the "anointed" scheme just doesn't add up no matter how you slice it. Without any "apostate" knowledge or influence simple math proves that Watch Towerism is plainly false on many fronts. The 144,000 as a literal number would have been filled long ago considering three centuries of what even the Watch Tower admits was true Christianity before the establishment of an apostate Roman state church. Many of these early Christians were tortured to death for their faith making them prime candidates for being of the "anointed class". The Watch Tower further admits that "true Christians", though small in number, existed throughout the 15 centuries which followed until the resestablishment of "pure worship" by Russel in the late 1800's. Many of these too died horrible deaths as heritics and would have a percentage who were of the "anointed class" as well.
Once Russel "restored" "true Christianity" all of his followers considered themselves worthy of the "heavenly hope" up until 1936. The WT Society made 1936 a cut off point precisley because the then membership was already exceeding 144,000 in number and needed an out to explain the growth beyond this point, hence the "earthly hope" class invented for the overflow. If the average "annointed" in 1936 was 30 years old (many were much older) then they would be 103 years old today or most likely long dead. Add to this all of the "anointed" since then and those still hovering at 8,000 or 9,000 at each memorial and you get a ridiculously large count which even if 50% were false would still exceed any reasonable estimates.
The math involved in reaching the world's population now in the billions with the WT salvation message using just 7 or 8 million JWs before Armageddon doesn't add up either. In fact a new generation of people who will never be reached grows exponentially every year Jehoobie postpones Armageddon needlessly killing uncontacted millions who need never have been born. In short, according to the Watch Towers own salvation scheme Armageddon can never come since only a small percentage of the world's population can realistically be contacted at all. Numbers don't lie and you don't need "apostates" to do the math and we haven't even gotten to "Armageddon any day now for over 100 years" numbers games.
-
33
Four years late. Just watched Passions of the Christ. I have a question
by shopaholic inas you know this movie was banned for jws.
any faithful witness would not watched a non-jw bible movie (even though they do it all the time but that's a different subject.
) i watched it this pass week over a couple of days.
-
-
Liberty
I appreciate your comments inkling. The Passion is such a testimate to self hate and a loathing for humanity in general that it becomes difficult for me to understand how seeing it could provide any one with a spiritual experience. The very unhealthy guilt-ridden traditional Christian concept that humans are unworthy of a saviour and where gross sin and degradation are considered normal human atributes flies in the face of the real world I have come to know since leaving the Watch Tower Cult. Gibson illustrates in this film what this sickness can do to a person's perception of reality.
The vast majority of human beings are kind and cooperative with only a tiny fraction being deviant and evil. This is a spiritual triumph in my opinion, considering the horrifically cruel natural environment which spawned us. Gibson has it all back wards, if there was a God He would be responsible for the horrors present in the Universe and not humanity. That we consistantly overcome the nightmarish and struggle with great success to make the world better is the real story of humanity. It is the traditional religions of self-hate which retard our progress and I am frightened that so many of my otherwise very nice friends and nieghbors would find such a primitive throwback emotion generated by the Passion to be spiritual. This film should be seen as a bizarre primeval curiosity and not as a spiritual ralllying point.
-
33
Four years late. Just watched Passions of the Christ. I have a question
by shopaholic inas you know this movie was banned for jws.
any faithful witness would not watched a non-jw bible movie (even though they do it all the time but that's a different subject.
) i watched it this pass week over a couple of days.
-
-
Liberty
Mel Gibson is deeply troubled but a genius film maker. Passion of the Christ is a brilliant horror movie but ridiculously over-the-top as a Bible movie. The visuals are beautifully crafted and fantastical in a nightmarish surealism but lacks any resemblence to historical reality. Passion makes the Robe look like a documentary, and the Robe was as campy as Bible movies could get until Passion.
Gibson never attempted to make this film realistic. It was shot on sets in Italy and looks nothing like the environment where the Bible stories take place. Monty Python's Life of Brian does a far better job of presenting a realistic Christ story even though it is a parody. Life of Brian is as brilliant in it's clean sparten simplicity as Passion is in it's European mystical theatrical fakery.
I never once felt like I was being transported to Roman occupied Palestine in the 1st Century in the Passion. It was more like seeing centuries of Catholic art works and icons being brought to life in a horrible nightmare. I enjoyed the Passion as a horror film filled with Gibson's guilt ridden demons and the hellish violence they spawn. But it is terriable as a realistic "Bible" film trying to bring the Gospels to life. The Passion appeals to the dark and primitive emotions and not the intellect. The entire dialogues spoken in ancient languages prove just how meaningless the words are in this story which is designed to appeal to the senses and emotions and not the mind. The drone of the languages became an hypnotic part of the soundtrack isolating the viewer ever deeper into the nightmare.
No human, no matter how perfect, could lose so much flesh and blood and live at all let alone stand up and still carry heavy beams to the execution site. The flipping of the cross over to bend the huge nails under was especially over-the-top in a movie of constant theatrical exaggerations. The maggot filled donkey, the silver toothed female Devil, the Devil-dwarf baby, the literal buckets of blood, the clots of torn bloody flesh flinging through the air, the brutal and ugly human faces smothering the viewer, the darkened sepia skies, and the clanking of heavy chains and wierd soundtrack noises all speak of bad dreams and not reality.
I find it odd that such an art house, R rated, Catholic flavored horror film could resonate so well with mainstream American Protestants. The fact that it did just proves to me how much raw emotion is really involved in even modern Christian belief. Sadism, fear, and guilt are such major components of these beliefs that they transend time and sects.
-
42
I need your help responding to my old JW friends email
by student1 inhello guys, todya i recieved an email from an old friend of mine within the jdubs... he did the usual jdub thing get married really young and as such we lost touch.. he since found me on facebook and has been bugging me about my decision to leave, i talked to him a little but his mind is completely closed and irrational so i was having little success saving him from the cult and as sich i decided to end the call.. by saying "your happy and i'm happy so lets leave it be and aggree to differ" - however he wont let it rest this is his email: any help in responding would be most appreciated!!
ps... how ironic that he should mention george orwell when he lives within a cult that epitomizes the 1984 book!!
seeing as you never botherered ringing me back or texting i thort id email you.. .
-
-
Liberty
Greetings student1,
I'd say that, as long as he is willing to stay in contact with you, you should do your best to help him see the light. I think you need to probe the internal self-evident Watch Tower dogma which is actually weakest, the preaching work. World wide the JW ministry is a dismal failure and comes no where near the mandate set out in the scriptures that the JWs use to justify the nearness of Armageddon. The preaching work could NOT possibly be nearing completion since vast areas in the Islamic world, and most of Asia remains untouched by the "life saving" message of the Watch Tower Society. Anyone with 1/2 a brain can do the math and realize without any Apostate information that it would be a gross miscarriage of justice for ol'Jeehobie to kill billions of people who have never even met a JW let alone heard the message.
The "collective guilt" theory used by the WT Society to justify the death of these uninformed billions is without any biblical basis. It also would prove God to be a rascist with cultural prejudices bent on genocide if the Watch Tower position were true. If there is any logic left in your friends brain the simple facts about how little the Watch Tower has done to get their message to these neglected areas should at least start him thinking about the glaring contradictions within this Watch Tower dogma which may, in turn, allow him to see the other problems with the entire belief system.
The other huge logic problem the JWs have is that their over all numbers cannot keep up with the population growth. In short, the longer Jehovah postpones Armageddon the more people will actually die since it is NOT possible for just seven million JWs even preaching nonstop for 24 hours a day seven days a week to contact every single person on earth even once, let alone to start bible studies with them, before a whole new larger generation of potential converts would be born. No Apostate info needed since this is a simple math problem. Numbers don't lie.
Math alone proves the Watch Tower Armageddon just would not be possible since billions now have never heard the message and every year God waits millions more are born who would all need to be contacted. How anyone could think that the Watch Tower's Jehovah was merciful or just in starting Armageddon after running the numbers is just beyond all reason. This immense failure of the Watch Tower to reach every corner of the earth with their salvation message was one of the main lines of evidence which allowed me to see that the JW belief system was deeply flawed.
-
31
Is the "My Book of Bible Stories" appropriate reading for Little Ones?
by Princess Daisy Boo inmy little boy, aged 4 1/2 loves his bedtime stories, and also loves "jesus stories" as he calls them... .
now, i have never gotten around to going to a book store and actually buying a childrens bible story book from the shops (yes...i still have a bit of a mental block and some deep seated issues about any religious literature).
my mom gave my kids a copy of the bible story book, as well as listening to the great teacher (the new soft cover book - think it is called that?
-
-
Liberty
Objectively, there are no Bible stories suitable for children. This is generally not acknowledged only because in Christian cultures we are desensitized to the horrific nature of the actions described on nearly every page of a Bible narrative. If the Bible's, sexuality, cruelty, and random violence is not explained away and justified by the extensive extra-biblical appologetics it would never be thought suitable for small children. If they were just Pagan stories they would not be used at all for young children.
-
34
A gradual decline or sudden collapse for the WTS?
by DT inmany of us believe the days of the watchower society may be numbered.
they are receiving an unprecedented amount of well deserved negative publicity.
however, they are still experiencing modest growth.
-
-
Liberty
Despite becoming incrediably dumbed-down and anti-climactic since the death of Fred Franz I fear the Watch Tower Society is here to stay. I hate to admit this, but if the drastic changes I've seen in Watch Tower land over the past 40 years (especially 1975 failure, the headquarters shakeup that ousted Ray Franz, and the death of the 1914 Generation) didn't wake the J-Dubs up nothing will.
I don't know what keeps the present day J-Dubs hanging on because at least in the 1960's and 70's we had a vibrant door to door ministry, confusing but interesting and creative Bible interpretation, and 1975 or at least the 1914 Generation to keep us going. It looks to me now that the big "A" has been postponed indefinetly without even a clear approximate timeline. Without a timeline hearing that the big "A" will be here "soon" is all but meaningless. The door to door work is a complete joke because there is no one at home under 70 years old anymore. Since the death of Fred Franz there has been no interesting Bible out-of-our-ass conjecture and the rules are even more hardass.
But I have heard that there are many young people who are attracted to fundie religion and harsh discipline as a backlash to the freedom in the secular world. People want a break from thinking for themselves I guess.
-
17
This is what Global Warming is REALLY about................................
by Warlock inposted by marc morano [email protected] 5:35 pm et.
[see related un bali blog reports:over 100 prominent scientists warn un against 'futile' climate control effortsskeptical scientists urge world to have the courage to do nothing' at un conference ].
global carbon tax urged at un climate conference.
-
-
Liberty
Thanks Warlock for bringing up these views. Global Warming a very emotionally charged subject ripe with deep political vitriol. I don't need more enemies but I would just like to add a few thoughts from experiances with my own research and University Prof.s I had classes under.
The common theme that surprized me the most in my many Earth Science related courses was the great immensity of the Earth. Humans really do not intuitively feel just how huge the Earth is. I was stunned by just how infinitesimally small we humans really are and how little we really matter (in the grand scheme of things) after studying the Earth in detail.
All the weapons ever produced including the most modern nukes even if fired all at once would barely put a small dent in the crust. Humans CANNOT destroy the Earth! I repeat, humans do NOT have the power to destroy the Earth! I emphasize this point because before taking these classes I too thought that a lot of nukes could literally destroy the planet. We have the power to wipe out most of the higher plants and animals on the surface but the Earth itself would remain virtually untouched. The vast majority of the lower life forms which make up the highest percentage of the Biomass of the Earth would also feel little effect. We never think about these lower life forms because they are largely unnoticed and therefor are practically invisible but they do make up the greatest actual living weight on the planet and we cannot destroy them.
Human's are naturally species-centric so we really think mostly about ourselves and how important we are and the things that are important to us. In short, we have an unrealistic view of the greatness of our own power and influence. This extends to our obsessions with Doomsday scenarios as well. Many religions unrealistically see humans at the center of the Universe and of primary interest to the forces of good and evil, God and the Devil etc. Even as some of us move away from religion we still retain the arrogance which falsely percieves us as the center of the Universe and certainly the planet.
Global Warming is the perfect example of this arrogance and misperception. A dozen very active volcanoes would produce more pollution in a few hours than humans have produced in our entire history. Where do you think all the carbon in our emmisions came from in the first place? We did not manufacture it, we are just releasing it. Every bit of it came from the Earth's atmosphere originally. The atmosphere has changed drastically over and over again in the very long history of the Earth and humans had nothing to do with it for 99.9% of that history.
Natural forces way beyond our control account for nearly every change ever seen on this planet. 99.9% of every life form that ever existed went extinct before we had even evolved. Extreme climate change has always been a constant in the Earth's history which is one of the reasons there are so many extinct life forms. Global Warming is not new nor unique. All the evidence from just 70 or so million years ago shows average temperatures throughout the entire surface of the globe at a constant 90 degrees F., hence tropical plant and animal fossils near the then poles (since the continents have shifted position since then).
Many of my Earth Sciences/Paleontology Prof.s were very skeptical of a human driven climate change hypothesis. They were especially skeptical of climate change driven solely by human activity. The best bet is that humans may contribute slightly to overall climate change leaving most of it to natural forces we are still struggling to fully understand.
Always keep in mind that quick radical changes in our energy use would kill far more people than Global Warming would. We need to approach the problem using reason and logic and not emotion. We need to proceed with caution and build a solution upon our best objective knowledge and not political extremism/exploitation.
-
10
Jesus/Yeshua/Joshua paralleled with Horus -- my final link here on XMas
by MadTiger inhotlinked for your perusal and approval
-
-
Liberty
Thank you for your well researched responses Leolaia! I really appreciate the effort you have always put in to helping us understanding the crazy complex world of religious appologetics and Bible scholarship.