I remember the 1973 Conventions! Many of the attendies said it would be the last one... in this "Wicked Old System" anyway. I'm glad I'll be destroyed in the big "A" if Jehover makes the survivors keep having these painfully boring conventions for eternity. Hell is looking better and better!
Liberty
JoinedPosts by Liberty
-
15
MORE ON 1975, FOR MUSKY
by Liberty inalong with musky's 1975 post i've just seen another so i wanted to try and reach musky again and reach others who wonder about the reality of the society's 1975 speculations.
af and others have done an excellent job documenting what was actually said by the watchtower society through their own official publications and spokesmen.
as a person who was actually there in those heady times of the late 60's and early 70's these official documents confirm what my memory tells me i knew all along, that of course the society actively promoted 1975 as a "marked date" or a date of "great significance" at the very least.
-
-
-
23
Smoking and apostates
by Elsewhere inmrmoe got me thinking... is it just me, or does a disproportionate number of apostates smoke?.
.
"as every one knows, there are mistakes in the bible" - the watchtower, april 15, 1928, p. 126 .
-
-
Liberty
I left the Watchtower, am an Atheist, and have never even wanted to smoke. That smell makes me ill.
-
26
Am I an "apostate"?
by 4christ ini was wondering if i am considered one by the wt defintion.
i have never been a jw in my life but i disagree with their doctrine.
are all the "worldies" considered "apostates" or just the ex jws?
-
-
Liberty
They run 4christ because they are ill-equipped to handle a knowledgable foe like yourself. They are after people who know nothing of them or the Bible so that they can quickly boondogel them into joining this wackey cult. You are too great a challenge. Their faith is so weak that they will not allow themselves to be confronted with anything that would risk sending them over the edge. That is why they are forbidden to read "Apostate" material, talk to Ex-JWs, or visit this site. The Watchtower Society's confidence in their own brainwashing is so low that they can't risk any fair debate format. They must always have the upper hand or they are uninterested in responding to a challenge.
-
15
MORE ON 1975, FOR MUSKY
by Liberty inalong with musky's 1975 post i've just seen another so i wanted to try and reach musky again and reach others who wonder about the reality of the society's 1975 speculations.
af and others have done an excellent job documenting what was actually said by the watchtower society through their own official publications and spokesmen.
as a person who was actually there in those heady times of the late 60's and early 70's these official documents confirm what my memory tells me i knew all along, that of course the society actively promoted 1975 as a "marked date" or a date of "great significance" at the very least.
-
-
Liberty
Thanks AF!,
I've really appreciated all your research, fine posts, and your web page.
-
15
MORE ON 1975, FOR MUSKY
by Liberty inalong with musky's 1975 post i've just seen another so i wanted to try and reach musky again and reach others who wonder about the reality of the society's 1975 speculations.
af and others have done an excellent job documenting what was actually said by the watchtower society through their own official publications and spokesmen.
as a person who was actually there in those heady times of the late 60's and early 70's these official documents confirm what my memory tells me i knew all along, that of course the society actively promoted 1975 as a "marked date" or a date of "great significance" at the very least.
-
-
Liberty
As more evidence of the changing attitudes after '75 I can remember that the young hot-shot Elders who were assigned in the late 70's started having kids, buying houses, and starting companies. I saw this as evidence that they no longer took "the End is near" crap as seriously anymore either. The Society must have approved since these were given position and more responsability.
Anyone chasing this hard after "the things of the World" before '75 would have been considered spiritually weak and been passed over or chastized for their lack of faith, yet soon after '75 this behaviour was just considered "taking care of our own families' needs". These A-hole Elders really chapped me because they still preached to the rest of us about the nearness of the End and warned of being tied up with Worldly things but blantently lived their lives like they knew this "Wicked Old System" was going on into infinity. They had comfortable lives but the rank & file were still supposed to tow the line cause the big "A" was still right around the corner. These same bastards later sent their kids to college while they had councelled my generation not to go because the End was so near. What a bunch of hypocrites.
-
15
MORE ON 1975, FOR MUSKY
by Liberty inalong with musky's 1975 post i've just seen another so i wanted to try and reach musky again and reach others who wonder about the reality of the society's 1975 speculations.
af and others have done an excellent job documenting what was actually said by the watchtower society through their own official publications and spokesmen.
as a person who was actually there in those heady times of the late 60's and early 70's these official documents confirm what my memory tells me i knew all along, that of course the society actively promoted 1975 as a "marked date" or a date of "great significance" at the very least.
-
-
Liberty
Thanks Englishman,
I feel like Winston in "1984" when I wonder for brief moments if I am crazy because I'm the only one who remembers history as it was before the Party changed it to fit their needs. The Watchtower is good at making you wonder if what you remember is real since they manipulate history so much. Thank goodness for the outside world where their tricks can be exposed and their own words used against them. I'm glad you remember this time too. I feel like an idiot for having believed this nonsense but I'm glad I lived through it. I feel sorrier for the post-75 Dubs who haven't completely experianced Watchtower deceptions on this same scale, though the Generation change comes close. I enjoy your posts! Thanks
-
15
MORE ON 1975, FOR MUSKY
by Liberty inalong with musky's 1975 post i've just seen another so i wanted to try and reach musky again and reach others who wonder about the reality of the society's 1975 speculations.
af and others have done an excellent job documenting what was actually said by the watchtower society through their own official publications and spokesmen.
as a person who was actually there in those heady times of the late 60's and early 70's these official documents confirm what my memory tells me i knew all along, that of course the society actively promoted 1975 as a "marked date" or a date of "great significance" at the very least.
-
-
Liberty
Along with Musky's 1975 post I've just seen another so I wanted to try and reach Musky again and reach others who wonder about the reality of the Society's 1975 speculations. AF and others have done an excellent job documenting what was actually said by the Watchtower Society through their own official publications and spokesmen. As a person who was actually there in those heady times of the late 60's and early 70's these official documents confirm what my memory tells me I knew all along, that of course the Society actively promoted 1975 as a "marked date" or a date of "great significance" at the very least.
In fact, as I recall, the closer 1975 came the more they shifted it from being the possible start of Christ's 1000 Year Rule into being a "marked year" or a turning point in World history. This was due only to the fact that nothing was really happening near to 1975 that could be seen as Armegeddon-like so of course the Millinium couldn't already be in place by then. The Cold War, the riots of hippy/racial radicals, the Viet Nam War, Nixon's resignation, the Arab-Isreal conflict, Oil Embargo, and resulting Energy Crisis were all settling down by 1975 instead of getting worse and the Society was getting nervous. WWI had been a "lucky" accident which kind of saved their ass in 1914 by giving them something to point to but 1975 would come and go as a completely uneventful year and as such a complete and utter failure for the Watchtower Society's doomsayers.
I think that many JWs want to forget the real significance of 1975, which is, that the specific date itself was not nearly as important as the general time frame promoted by even the "moderates" in the Watchtower Society. The evidence is very clear, despite all JW denials, that even if certain Elders in individual congregations didn't believe in 1975 they certainly were convinced that the general time frame promoted for years by the Watchtower Society through all official study materials that "The End of This System of Things" was very near was a reality. That is what being a JW was all about, our one singular reason for being was preaching that the End was near. If "good and faithful" JWs didn't believe the big "A" was near then what was the whole point of what they/we were doing? To claim that only a few "overzealous" Brothers pushed the date 1975 is a red herring argument since evey active JW I knew believed that the big "A" could start at any time near this date. Why else would there have been such a frenzied pace and rapid growth during this period?
Todays JWs would have you believe it was no big deal but all evidence and common sense says likewise. If nobody really believed the mid-70's weren't special then why all the hubbub? After the turbulant 1960's many people besides JWs thought that the World was on the brink of destruction. Just look at the popular books and movies from this time. Apocolyptic themes were rampant in films like Omega Man, Soilent Green, Planet of the Apes, The Illustrated Man not to mention all the Hal Lindsey books. These movies were extra frightening to us JWs because they confirmed what we had been told. In The Omega Man I remember seeing a calender in the post-apocolyptic world stuck on 1975, the year the World as they had known it ended. This general feeling was widespread and very real folks. Any of you who were there and old enough know it.
Real JW disappointment lethargy didn't set in until the very late 1970's when the reality that the World was getting better instead of worse started to sink in. The few years after 1975 were still very hopeful that the End would come and relieve us of both our disillusionment and the harsh realities of continuing to live for a very long time in a world where education and money really were important afterall. Living on dreams and false hopes just became impossible after such a long time and the hard core believers started to make up the myth that they had never been fooled by 1975 and never believed it would be the End afterall. They had to, or face the fact that they had been idiots and believed in a liar Organization and had sacrificed for a false dream. I think it is this late 70's early 80's era and attitude that the younger folks remember when faithful dubs said they never believed in 1975. Before 1975 you would have been DFed for claiming that the big "A" was years off in the future but after this failed date this began to slowly change and you were allowed to be against "date setting" and to bad mouth those "faithless" nameless "overzealous" Brothers who promoted 1975, how dare they! Thus the myth of how the "time watchers" were cleaned out by Jehovah due to them putting faith in a date. The reality was that these "overzealous", "running ahead of the Organization", "datesetters" were all from the highest ranking officials in the Watchtower Society and not the nameless mythical scapegoat congregations out there somewhere.
It is no myth however that many dubs were waking up and smelling the coffee by the late 70's & early 80's as thousands did leave. Can you blame them? It's been almost 30 years since the mid-70's. No big "A" in sight. Many who left or stayed are now dead from old age and all of the 1914 Generation are gone. Do any of you still really believe the End is near after all this? Would it really be arrogant to say you were a fool if you did?
-
24
1975
by musky inthere has been much said about the watchtower saying that the end would come in 1975. i have never seen any evidence that the watchtower said the end would definitely come in 1975. if there was such evidence, there would certainly be little or no witnesses left today, i believe.
i do not believe that excuses the fact that they definitely put that idea in peoples heads.
i was 10 years old then.
-
-
Liberty
Hi again Musky,
We have argued continuously here and on the old H2O site with real Watchtower defenders and trolls about 1975. My post was strongly worded because I can't believe a real JW could really believe that individuals or congregations could promote an idea as important as 1975 unless it was approved by the Society. I granted you the fact that you may have been too young to understand what was going on back then but yet you still insist on saying that the 1975 big A promotion was congregationally divergent. You know this cannot be true after living as a JW after this event and getting older since people are DFed for just BELIEVING in minor doctrinal differences let alone actively promoting something this radical. So yes, this is why I questioned whether you were a real JW. If you are/were a JW then my point was that their brainwashing is very effective because you are able to ignor reality and create the myth that each congregation was allowed to promote the idea as they saw fit without feeling the wrath of the Society. The Society did not just passively allow individuals or congregations to come to their own understanding on this or any matter but actively WAS the source of the idea and its promotion.
I would conceed that as 1975 came and went without any significant world events occuring (it failed miserably as even a "marked" date unlike 1914 which at least had the "lucky" coincidence of a World War)certain congregations swept it under the rug faster than others. Perhaps this is what you meant or felt since you were too young to really remember the excitment of pre-1975 years. My goal was not to attack you as a person but rather I was frankly shocked into anger by your theory since such diversity of opinion is not allowed in the Watchtower Society and I figured you should know that as a real JW. The explaination you offered became the official denial of the Society as 75 receeded uneventfully into the past, that is, blaming it on "overzealous brothers". I'm sure some brain washed JWs accepted this lie so it is possible to believe this excuse but you were smart enough to post here in the first place so how could you believe it?
That was my only real point beyond clarifying the reality of 1975 for any lurkers. I have had my feelings hurt on this board before too. I stayed off for months because of how someone replied to one of my posts. So I understand your anger. We shoot of our replies here with more vigour than if we had to face each other in person so I should keep this in mind. I do feel that my points were valid and logical however, and my intention was not to be arrogant. Welcome to the debate. Freedom is sometimes painful and we get our feelings hurt but the information is mostly very good here.
-
24
1975
by musky inthere has been much said about the watchtower saying that the end would come in 1975. i have never seen any evidence that the watchtower said the end would definitely come in 1975. if there was such evidence, there would certainly be little or no witnesses left today, i believe.
i do not believe that excuses the fact that they definitely put that idea in peoples heads.
i was 10 years old then.
-
-
Liberty
Hi Musky,
I was really there in the late 60's early 70's and you apparently were/are just plain ill-informed or are too young to remember it clearly. True, there is no Watchtower article stating clearly that "the big A will begin at 12:45 PM on Oct.10th 1975" but the Watchtower Society knew/knows how to generate excitement among the rank and file by "code dating", that is, setting up well known markers such as the 1914 generation age limit, the 6000 years since man's creation, combined with constant harping about the so-called fulfillment of End Times signs.
All these events, by the Society's own promotional estimates, culminated at the 1975 target and this was no accident but planned by the higher ups at Headquarters. In the late 60's the 1914 generation were said to have been at least in their mid-teens or older so they would, "be of an age to understand the importance of the events of 1914". This made even the young teenagers of that era to be in their 70's by the mid 1970's putting them at the "upper limit of man's appointed time". This seems even funnier now nearly 30 years later when the Society made the claim that this same "generation would not fade away before the fulfillment of these things", since even the youngest among them would now be over 100 years old. The same goes for the 6000 years since "man's creation" since even if we grant that it took a rather dim-witted Adam several years to figure out that there were no animals suitable to be his mate before the last creation of Eve. The Society's publications said at the time that such a realization would have taken a few months at most rather than the 30 years+ needed if such mythical nonsense were true.
In short, the Society, through their own publications and service staff, certainly did promote the mid-70's as the absolute limit of possible big A dates. Some quotes I recall said that we might actually be in the 1000 year reign of Christ by 1975. After being a real JW only a fool would believe that the individual congregations were running ahead and/or over stating this date on their own as "unity" and subjection to authority are key features of continued association with the Watchtower Society for individuals as well as congregations. No congregation would last a month promoting anything not directly approved by the Watchtower Society. There would have been a huge shake up if "the big A in '75 promotion" had came from individual rebel congregations or individuals period. People are DFed for much less than this so the scenario/excuse you envisioned is just not possible (which you must know if you were ever a real JW). Your ability to deny these date promotions for The End Of This System is more proof to me that the Watchtower Society is a cult capable of changing history in the controlled minds of its members/victims.
-
16
Thich Nhat Hanh
by wonderwoman77 inhas anyone ever read anything by this buddhist monk?
i am currently reading teachings on love, it is wonderful.
he starts out saying that you have to preserve your religious roots and he discusses the four immeasurable minds.
-
-
Liberty
Hi Megadude,
After years of reading the Bible it was clear to me that the Hebrews were instructed by their God to kill on a consistant basis anyone they deemed as unfit to live including women,children, babies, and pets. To my knowledge even the Nazis didn't have an official mandate to hunt down Jewish owned animals in order to kill them too. Since the Old Test. Bible is mostly about God providing the Hebews with the example of killing the whole of humanity and yet more innocent animals in a great flood, then fire from the Heavens in Sodom and G. burning to death more babies and animals, killing His faithful servant Job's innocent children and animals, then killing His own chosen people to punish them by allowing other tribes to kill Hebrew women and babies, when He himself was not killing innocent babies like David and Bathsheba's first son. The list goes on and on until we get to the New Test. where He kills His own son as a sacrifice, then destroys His chosen people again using the Romans, and then promises in the future to kill the majority of humanity including babies and animals again at the end of the world. I think we all can see a clear pattern here. If you disagree with God or are an unthinking animal or baby He will kill you if you aren't in the "right" culture or even just at the right place at the right time. If this doesn't describe a homicidal maniac then Hitler and Ted Bundy were real nice guys afterall.