Posts by Liberty

86

Carbon Dating

by Wolfgirl in

sorry, i don't have time to search the site right now.

this bloody french isp is rubbish, and i keep getting dropped when i try anything that takes more than 10 seconds.

has the society ever come up with any intelligent reasoning to counter the ages that carbon dating/science has given to various artifacts, i.e.

I'm no expert but my Geology prof. explained that Carbon dating is limited by the regular decay rate of the carbon 12 isotope to about 36,000 years. Within this 36,000 year window the error margin is 50 to 300 years. This error margin is frequently sited by JWs and other Fundies as the reason we cannot trust this dating method. This argument is quickly destroyed however, by realizing that 36,000 years is still plenty of time to prove that all the Watch Tower's post-human-creation events (the last 6000 + years) are easily datable to be older than any thing the Watch Tower teaches is possible even if there were a 1000 year margin of error. If human remains are dated at 30,000 years ago for example the error margin could mean anywhere between 30,300 to 29,700 years ago which still disproves the Bible's own chronology by several thousands of years older. This is why the Bible's story of human creation and the Flood are proven false by Carbon dating alone not to mention all the other evidences which converge to prove beyond any reason that these biblical stories are fairy tales. The Watch Tower relies on common peoples' ignorance of the real facts to sell their Creationism nonsense.

Edited by - LIberty on 20 September 2002 16:18:10

72

CREATIONISM----F.Y.I

by nakedmvistar in

in the midst of the debates -- or wars -- concerning the issues of creation and evolution, there is a tendency to over-generalize.

both sides often refer to the opposing side with the broad term of either "evolutionist" or "creationist.

" and yet there exists within both sides a great deal of variety and even controversy.

Liberty

Hi Perry,

Evolutionists "require" nothing because science isn't trying to do anything but come up with viable explainations for phenomenon based upon evidence observed in the natural world. Because they are not trying to appease an invisible super being there is no implicit pressure which "requires" an authorized conclusion. Despite the attempt by Creationists to equate science with faith based religion, science is NOT based on faith, it is based on evidence. The sciences, including evolutionary science, do NOT claim to have an ultimate Truth they are trying to prove, unlike religion, but are merely allowing truths about the natural world to be revealed and then formulated into viable explanations known as paradigms, which are models of how something might work using the best available evidence. Paradigms are not dogmatic beliefs held as Truth approved by a super being authority figure who punishes you if you get it wrong so they in NO way resemble religions. Scientists or even laymen who refuse to accept prevailent paradigms are not persecuted or threatened with punishments, they are merely asked to provide evidence which will over turn the prevailent paradigm in favor of their new one. This happens all the time, one huge paradigm shift occurred when Geology accepted the Shifting Tectonic Plates paradigm to replace the Steady State model. Science is always changing based on the evidence while religions resist change because it calls into question their central authority. No such central authority exists for science.

47

Does God still exist for you?

by nakedmvistar in

i'm quite new to this forum (only a handful of posts).

but from what i've read up to now, it seems apparent that some of you have abandoned your belief in a god.

is this because of trauma brought about by the jw religion?

Liberty

Hello again Neon,

I was very happy to hear that you are in college and on your way to a good job. Living well is the best revenge against the Watch Tower Cult so I'm glad that you didn't let them stop you from getting a "worldly" education. I appreciate the reasonable tone in the responses you have given and I hope I haven't come off sounding like too much of a know-it-all. I've been out (of the WTS) for a long time now so I forget how hard it is to let go of all our beliefs at once. I held on to many Christian concepts for years so your points are perfectly understandable.

I had many questions that bothered me about my beliefs so I studied the Bible and science looking for answers and my only point in posting is to let others benifit from what I've found so you won't waste as much of your life (or money in college) as I did. My questions prompted me to take many hours of science classes not required for my degree. I really enjoyed taking these classes even though it put me way behind in getting my degree and cost me lots of money but I wouldn't recommend this path unless you are obsessesd with knowing the real truth about the Bible and science and are bull-headed about seeing the evidence for yourself and not trusting what others tell you.

Noah's Flood is one of the more disturbing stories in the Bible for me even as a child growing up as a JW. I kept aquariums, both fresh and salt water, so I knew the biological implications of flooding the planet as described in the Bible. I could not reconcile for myself how there could still be delicate coral reef communities left throughout the world if they had been covered by billions of gallons of fresh water and silt just a few thousand years ago. I knew from experiance that nearly all sea life would have been driven into extinction by the Flood so how could the oceans be so full of this life today? If the Flood's waters were salty then the same problem would exist for all the fresh water communities still alive today? These problems are really unsolvable, especially if there was no evolution as is taught by the Watch Tower Society. It is clear that the reef, lake, and river communities have been stable for tens of thousands of years leaving no room for a Noah and his Flood. This Flood also creates numerous problems for the distribution of land plants and animals throughout the isolated far corners of the Earth which are now seperated by vast oceans in the post Flood era. How did plants and animals get from a central distribution area (the Ark) across the oceans to repopulate the earth in just a few thousand years? Why did Australia have such unique life forms found nowhere else if it was populated from the same Ark survivor's as everywhere else? The questions go on and on and the Bible does not answer them. All the physical evidence clearly says that a Global Flood never happened even in the distant past, let alone, just a few thousand years ago as the Bibles own internal chronology demands.

This is just one of many nonsensical Bible stories which makes me seriously wonder about the truthfulness of the whole book. How can Christ and his sacrifice be real if the surrounding stories have proven to be untrue? If there was no original sin why is Christ even necessary? If God is real why does only a fraction of the World's population have His favor through being Choosen people or in a culture where a Holy inspiration is given? Why not give everyone the same holy book at the same time? The Bible presents a God who is racist, unfair, violent, illogical, inconsistant, wasteful, and in short, has every human flaw. So much of it makes so little sense and I haven't even gotten into the Creation, Cain and Able, the Tower of Babel, Job, etc. You say you're taking a logic class so stop and apply what you've learned to the Bible. Is it logical? Does its claims fit reality and the evidence we can see all around us? Look objectively at the Bible just as you would the Koran or the Book Of Mormon. Why is the Bible true and the others false? Does the Bible really make more sense than the Book Of Morman when seen without your cultural bias? You must answer these questions yourself. Good luck in your own search for truth.

72

CREATIONISM----F.Y.I

by nakedmvistar in

in the midst of the debates -- or wars -- concerning the issues of creation and evolution, there is a tendency to over-generalize.

both sides often refer to the opposing side with the broad term of either "evolutionist" or "creationist.

" and yet there exists within both sides a great deal of variety and even controversy.

Liberty

Hi Naked,

Nice post but I would disagree about comparing the preconcieved notions of the scientific method and Creationists. There is a vast difference between science and Creationism. Science is based upon observations from the nature while Creationism is driven by religious faith in the supernatural. Invisible super beings are the first cause in Creationism and such beings cannot be discovered by any known scientific method therefore all the research that follows is faith based, in essence using natural phenomenon to prove the supernatural (trying to prove that which is unprovable). God, gods, or other supernatural beings would have to make themselves known in the physical realm before they can become the subject(s) of a true scientific study. Science is the study of the natural world and not of the supernatural.

If, for instance, I claim my car was hand made by the ghost of Henry Ford scientists could study the car and even draw conclusions about its materials and manufacture but could not prove that a ghost made the car unless Henry Ford appeared to them in an observable form and demonstrated how he made my car. Since God or any other gods have so far not appeared to scientists for study in an observable form they are as real as Henry Ford's ghost. Studying the earth to prove that gods exist is as futile as studying my car to prove Ford's ghost exists. Adding a document which states that Ford's ghost inspired its writing and then describes how and why he built my car is not that helpful except that if it describes a process which proves to be false when compared to the actual car it only proves that the document itself is faulty, further straining the credability of the ghost story in the first place.

Edited by - Liberty on 18 September 2002 11:44:3

47

Does God still exist for you?

by nakedmvistar in

i'm quite new to this forum (only a handful of posts).

but from what i've read up to now, it seems apparent that some of you have abandoned your belief in a god.

is this because of trauma brought about by the jw religion?

Liberty

Hello Neon,

I wasn't spoiling for an argument I was just stating my opinion. However, I enjoy a good debate as well as anyone so I'll answer your challenge. Maybe I "poisoned the well" but you have done exactly the same to me. How do you know I would reject God if He spoke to me? This is the same lame argument I've heard from other believers as regards Atheists. If God showed up and provided evidence for His existance I'd be happy to accept Him just as I accept the Sun rise each morning but I refuse to believe just because you or an old book say I should. You ask what evidence I would need, well why would God just speak to me? Of course a private meeting could be interpreted as my insanity so He must speak to all of us in a clear distinct manner so their could be no question of His reality. Sane people all over the earth believe in the Sun because we all see it and not just the Governing Body or the Pope. You said that my assertion was a "just because I say so" argument and yet you base your whole belief system on such an assertion. You only have the Bible as any tangable basis for your belief in God and nothing else. You believe that the Bible is the word of God because it says it is. You have no evidence to present so you attack me as a person and present the same old tired circular reasoning.

I can provide evidence that the Bible is bogus and not just because I say so. A study of Geology, Biology, and Archeology quickly proves the Creation, Noah's flood, and the Tower of Babel stories to all be pure fiction. This is based on real evidence like fossils, DNA, sediment deposits, known ages of civilizations, distribution of animal and plant species, the compression strength of mud brick, and common sense. I would go into more detail but I fear you would be unconvincable (as you accuse me) no matter the evidence. I've studied your Bible but have you ever taken any university level science courses? If you are so confident in your beliefs I challenge you to see the evidence for yourself. Are you a lover of truth? If so, take some classes and expose yourself to more information so that you can make an informed choice and not just believe what your ancestor's taught a thousand years ago. I have an unfair advantage because I've seen in detail both sides of this argument. Have You? If you have some evidence from the natural world which proves God exists and that the Bible is His word then please present it so we can believe together.

47

Does God still exist for you?

by nakedmvistar in

i'm quite new to this forum (only a handful of posts).

but from what i've read up to now, it seems apparent that some of you have abandoned your belief in a god.

is this because of trauma brought about by the jw religion?

Liberty

Our belief in God is primarily cultural. Most of us here were born into Christian cultures, whether born into JWism or converted later, so we were all completely submerged in Christian influenced cultures and their concepts. Had we been born into an Islamic culture our concepts of God would be Islamic. Because belief in God and our concepts of God are predetermined by our cultures I find it hard to believe that our "longing" for and/or curiosity about God is anything but a cultural phenomenon.

If God exists He has made NO effort to communicate with us (any objective study of the Bible reveals it to be utter nonsense, and therefor, not a communication from a super being) to substantiate His existance. This leaves us with two equally comforting possibilities: God exists but doesn't care whether we acknowledge Him or not; or, God doesn't exist at all. Since there is absolutely no evidence for God's existance I think the later is a logical choice. The Universe without God has fewer unanswered questions and just makes more sense. So no, after years of study, searching, and a lot of thought God does not exist for me now. I am still open to the possibility however, if I am provided with any evidence beyond, "because this magic book says so" or, "God is speaking through a chosen messenger".

11

DEMONS SCARED THE CRAP OUT OF ME!!!!

by Liberty in

jw
friends

since most of us here are ex-jws i'm sure we all have been scared of demons at one time or another as their touted reality is a basic cornerstone of the watch tower philosophy.

gossip and rumors dealing with demon attacks are encouraged by the society in local congregations and such stories frequently appear in watch tower publications to further strengthen the argument that demons are real and are ready at any opening to "demonize" us if we fall short of deserving "jehovah's protection" or foolishly venture beyond the protection of "jehovah's organization".. since belief in demonic beings is so widespread inside the jw community, current or ex, many have reported encounters with these minions of satan.

i take these reports seriously, for the most part, knowing how real demons once seemed to me i can easily believe that someone with a similar jw background may think that they really are the victims of such supernatural forces.

Liberty

Since most of us here are ex-JWs I'm sure we all have been scared of demons at one time or another as their touted reality is a basic cornerstone of the Watch Tower philosophy. Gossip and rumors dealing with demon attacks are encouraged by the Society in local congregations and such stories frequently appear in Watch Tower publications to further strengthen the argument that demons are real and are ready at any opening to "demonize" us if we fall short of deserving "Jehovah's protection" or foolishly venture beyond the protection of "Jehovah's Organization".

Since belief in demonic beings is so widespread inside the JW community, current or ex, many have reported encounters with these minions of Satan. I take these reports seriously, for the most part, knowing how real demons once seemed to me I can easily believe that someone with a similar JW background may think that they really are the victims of such supernatural forces. I am not with these persons when such events occur so I could not say for sure that their experiances are real or unreal. However, like any information I might recieve that did not come directly from my own observations, I am left with only my logic and skeptcism to test against this information's validity. If, for instance, I was told by a stranger that Chase Bank was going to give away a million dollars to anyone who shows up at their home office in New York City on Christmas Day I would first measure this possibility against known parimeters of probability before I bought my plane tickets, made hotel reservations, and stood in line to get my share. Most of us would probably discount this give away as improbable since Banks are not in the habit of giving away money to people for no good reason and taking this stranger's word might cause us to lose time, energy, and money on a long shot which will more than likely prove to be untrue. I would call this a wise and cautious use of skepticism and would warn others about my conclusions until I had better proof. This isn't rude and I'm not calling the stranger a liar I am just applying healthy skepticism. Why not apply this same common economic saavy to religion?

Reason informs us that the JW brand demons are most likely NOT real based on the information the Society itself provides. The WTS claims demons are fallen angels who joined Satan in his rebellion against Jehovah. If these angels were intelligent super beings (which the WTS says they are) why would they do the stupid things JWs say demons do? Why would they waste their time inhabiting old pieces of furniture, books,toys, nick knacks, or clothing on the off chance that someone might buy them just so they can scare the crap out of them? What purpose is served by such events? If anything, making their presence known scares people into worshipping God. How does this further their goals? Surely evil angels on missions for Satan's great rebellion have more important things to do than scare little kids and old ladies. These stories fly in the face of logic, even internal WTS "logic". Did highly trained Nazi spies hide in cabnets and jump out at random enemy civilians to scare them in furtherance of Hitler's war plans? Of course not. Such a waste of resources is beyond silly yet this is what we are expected to believe about spirit beings of even greater intelligence than humans. What great things are accomplished when demons cause random and mostly unimportant people to froth at the mouth, utter curses, or have sex with them? If I had more time to go into it I'd describe 100 other reasons why the Watch Tower's world view makes NO sense from Satan and his demons to Armageddon and everywhere in between. Use your reason and the Watch Tower's version of "reality" melts away like the nightmare it is. It has all the substance of a dream.

124

Anyone still bothered by the demons?

by wednesday in

jw
friends

hi i'm wednesday and born and raised in jw.-inactive several years.

i have had a number of iincidents that appear to demonic've had spirit beings sit on my bed at ight and talk to me i've been literally touched by things unseen.

now i know the jw are big on demon stuff.

Liberty

Hi Wednesday,

I take your problem seriously because you were raised in a backwards looking religion which has never advanced past the age of superstition and magic. You need to free yourself from this controlling religious cult's world view by replacing its self serving Cosmology with one from the Age of Reason. The Watch Tower Society uses the fear of demons to control its followers, a control that is so powerful that it still works even after they stop actively associating. The truth is that the Watch Tower Society actually loves demons because they serve as a cost free secret police force that they can rely on to control and punish followers who dare to think for themselves.

The real "demon" the Watch Tower hates and fears above all else is science. Think about all the anti-science brain washing a JW recieves and it becomes clear that this is the real key to breaking the Society's control over people's lives. Psychics, mystics, fortune tellers are actually allies of the Watch Tower all cooperating together to keep their followers in a state where these "experts" in superstition are "needed". If you want your attacks to end begin a program of study in the sciences. If you are near a University or Jr. College it will be worth every penny to your mental health to take classes there with an open mind so you can be introduced to mainstream Western thought based on reason, logic, and scientific method. If you can't afford classes or if they are too far away go to your library and read for free books on this subject you can study on your own. I recommend Carl Sagan as an introductory author in scientific thinking. His books are well writen and aimed at the nonscientist. After Sagan I would recommend Stephen J. Gould who details the principles of Evolution in a very understable way. Science is the key to wiping out superstition and dependance on religious mumbo jumbo. As you emerse yourself in this new way of looking at the Universe your fears and demons will fade away and the Watch Tower Society can be seen for the manipulating frauds that they are. Welcome to the 21st century.

26

Birthdays

by showme in

i have been dating a jw for about 4 months now.

i was curious about her beliefs in the beginning.

i had no idea what jw's believed.

Liberty

Friday,

Job wasn't at the party because of a rule known to writers of sit-coms and make believe everywhere, which is, that if he had been at the party he would be dead and there wouldn't be a protagonist to finish out the rest of the story. This is the answer plain and simple. NOT because he thought birthdays were wrong. If the husband in a TV movie isn't on the plane that crashes and kills his wife does that mean he thought planes are evil? No the writer needs him to be alive so he can make up a story about how this death impacted him. THE BIBLE IS MAKE BELIEVE. IT'S NOT REAL. There is no deep meaning in the fact that job wasn't at his children's party, he just needed to be around to finish this fairy tale.

20

'Jehovah & Son' Comic Strip

by Mister Biggs in

.

this is the true history of the earth, man, dinosaurs, etc.

i will make more strips in the near future.. .

Liberty

Thanks again Mr. Biggs,

This is funny because it's TRUE. According to the Watch Tower and other fundie cults ol' Jehover and Jesus are just like Beavis and Butt-head, a couple of hormone crazed teenaged boys laughing it up as the Universe goes to hell all around them. Violence, destruction, and suffering really turn their cranks. I can almost hear Jehover-Butt-head saying to Beavis-Jesus, "Hey! You left fossils for them to find Butt-munch. HUH HUh...huh. Now they won't believe our creation myth Bible crap." Beavis-Jesus replys, " That's ok..Heehee...heh we'll just destroy them again and make some new ones. Boing....hehhee.. I am Bung-holio... they will become T.P. for my corn holio at Armageddon hehheehheeee!"

You've done a great job on the graphics