Posts by Liberty

13

Help with 1914!

by izobcenec in

jw
friends

i am discussing about the year 1914 with my dub friend...he insists, that the year 607 is scriptural,.

because 607+70 is 537, when israelis returned to their land.

i presented all the evidence about 586/87.

This subject is very complex and there are others here who can do a better job of explaining the actual numbers (even this might not be enough to convince a die hard fanatic) but you might consider another line of argument. For me, it wouldn't matter if the numbers really did add up to 1914 because I'm still left with a big "So What" gap in my own mind. Much of what was so special about 1914 has been rendered meaningless by the passage of time. We don't have to argue and juggle numbers to prove that The Generation who saw "Christ made king" in 1914 are now all DEAD. Only tiny babies in that time hang on to life in their 90s now, hardley the fulfillment of a promise that "that generation" would not pass away before Armageddon.

Even the Society had to change the interpretation of the Generation to one that was so inclusive that it has lost all prophetic meaning since anyone born from then til infinity is now included giving us NO clear time limit on Armageddon's coming which was the only really important thing about 1914 in the first place. This alone should be enough to get any honest truth seeker to question all of the Watch Tower's other bogus "predictions". Without the power of "special God inspired" knowledge of Bible prophacy the Watch Tower Society is just another dooms day cult grasping at straws. Ask your friend, " Honestly, what is important about 1914 if it does not help us pinpoint Armageddon's start since Christ will still be our King either way?"

13

Examples in the Bible?

by happyout in

i am not in a position to do research on this, but maybe someone can help me out.

dubs don't celebrate birthdays because the two examples in the bible were negative, right?

well, each time jesus went into a "temple", didn't he have a negative experience?

Liberty

Swedish Chef, the Bible itself says nothing about Jesus performing a miracle or using His special freezing powers on the guards so we only know He walked in and went "postal". If He used super powers I'm guessing it would have said He did since no opportunity was ever lost when it came to the Bible writers citing magic powers. Also If Jesus used magic powers in this incident the evil money changers and their tables would have lifted themselves up and floated out of the building but instead Jesus used plain muscle power to overturn the tables and chased out the merchants with a whip.

Parousia, the Bible clearly states that the money changers were physically chased from the Temple by Jesus, so, yes he assaulted them too.

13

Examples in the Bible?

by happyout in

i am not in a position to do research on this, but maybe someone can help me out.

dubs don't celebrate birthdays because the two examples in the bible were negative, right?

well, each time jesus went into a "temple", didn't he have a negative experience?

Liberty

Thanks Peacefulpete! I learn something new nearly every day I come here.

I'd never thought about how hard it would be for a simple Jesus type person to single handedly walk into the Temple and start assaulting people. The Romans were sticklers for order so the Temple (as an important public building with money involved) would have had the security of a Whitehouse or a Las Vegas Cassino. No one would last 5 seconds in such a place before being wrestled to the floor and arrested if they were unarmed and acting alone. Like so much of the Bible this is yet another event that could NOT have happened as written. More proof that the Bible is mostly fiction and that Jesus could not be who the Christians claim him to be.

Edited by - Liberty on 31 January 2003 15:16:46

21

Do You Still Believe In Some Of The JW Religion?

by SpannerintheWorks in

.

which beliefs do you hold on to that you may have previously rejected as a non-jw?.

spanner

Liberty

A valid question Spanner,

It has surprised me over the years just how much of their old religion ex-JWs carry around with them yet it shouldn't be surprising considering the brain washing we got day in and day out while still in. It has honestly taken me years and countless hours of study and research to purge myself of the poison which is Watch Towerism and even then, I still feel the residual effects and probably always will. I can say now that I don't intelectually believe in anything taught by the Watch Tower Society but I still "feel" some beliefs in my subconscious at times. When the sky looks wierd or the weather is funny a frightened little voice in the the back of my mind still says, "Armageddon" even though I know it will never really happen. I'm still grossed out by eating blood even though I know there is nothing biologically wrong with it.

Edited by - Liberty on 30 January 2003 16:43:31

83

Legalize ALL Drugs. Yes or No?

by SpannerintheWorks in

jw
friends

i thought it would be interesting to get a cross-sectional view of your opinions on whether all drugs (lsd, heroin, cocaine, etc.

be legalized so that they then became freely available to the general population, in the same way that alcohol and tobacco are .

spanner

Liberty

Hi Sarah Annie,

You make my points for me in all your posts even though you didn't intend to. If someone commits crimes against others it shouldn't matter what substance they were on. The crime should be punished rather than the sale of an enabling substance otherwise owners of restaurants who serve truckers should be arrested for serving coffee which CAN cause sleep deprivation and accidents. Your later point that you don't want drugs legalized because you will have to pay for the addicts through government aid programs is a great illustration of how communal (Socialism, Communism) political systems are by their very nature the antithesis of human rights and always end up being repressive. To extend your logic shouldn't sky diving, football, and snow boarding be banned so Society doesn't have to pay for all the needless injuries, deaths, and disabilities caused by these purely recreational activities? Should women who eat poor diets low in folic acid be arrested because they might have babies with Spina Befida since we must pay for their care? It is logical to force morality on people if we are forced to share in the care for them but I prefer freedom to oppresion so I would rather have freedom and no government programs. I want to make my own choices and suffer my own consequences. That's called freedom, otherwise I'd still live with my parents. Communists love living with and being told what to do by their parents, the government.

83

Legalize ALL Drugs. Yes or No?

by SpannerintheWorks in

jw
friends

i thought it would be interesting to get a cross-sectional view of your opinions on whether all drugs (lsd, heroin, cocaine, etc.

be legalized so that they then became freely available to the general population, in the same way that alcohol and tobacco are .

spanner

Liberty

Yes!!! Trying to control peoples' behavior creates far more problems than drugs ever will. All victimless "crimes" should be eliminated. Drugs, prostitution, pornography, gambling, etc. should all be legalized because the consequences are felt soley by those who choose to engage in such activities. I know..I know the families of those who go overboard in this behavior suffer too but with that logic I can think of a whole list of things to ban from sky diving to snow boarding to shopping on line. Only those who choose to remain associated or dependant upon the abusers of these freedoms need suffer, especially in a modern culture where women have many job choices and are not dependant on the man for their sole lively hoods. Most of these vice laws were passed back in the past in a sexist culture where women had little choice if their supporting mates were squandering the family budget on such things.

6

Types, Anti-types, 1st, 2nd, 3rd Fullfillments

by RubaDub in

is it just my distorted, critical reasoning and viewpoint on matters or has anyone here (i'm still new here) ever commented about why things appear so complex and complicated?

i mean is it possible that a lot of the things we read in the bible should be taken at face value?

of course there is a lot of symbolism in the bible.

Liberty

Good points Rub a Dub,

The Watch Tower religion is built on all this complex nonsense because otherwise it would have had nothing new to sell and would have been just another run-of-the-mill Protestant denomination among hundreds. Many of the dumbest concepts evolved from the constant tweaking done to explain an original idea that didn't make any sense in the first place. Revisions upon revisions which gave us such gems as the goofy reasonings about the literal 144,000 annointed class which eventually paints the Watch Tower leaders/writers into a corner which defies all logic because it was based upon nothing but imagination in the first place. Ray Franz called this complex rationalizing "mental gymnastics" and his uncle Fred was a master at this contorsionist act. Logic and facts have to be "reasoned" away so that the inherant contradictions of the Watch Tower dogma can be made believable by baffeling the audience with bull shit known in Dubdom as "deep spiritual thinking". Part of why the Watch Tower is in such trouble today is that Fred Franz is dead and no one else has his talent for "explaining" the unexplainable, the other reason is that so many of Fred's explainations were essentially time delaying tactics whose time has run out. The "Generation" teaching being just one of many that those left behind after Freddy's death must now deal with. Any application of logic to the basic Watch Tower beliefs will destroy the whole structure much like bad special effects can spoil the make believe fun in a fantasy movie. Once the suspension of disbelief is broken the whole thing unravels because there is no inherent reality there in the first place to hold it all together.

6

Anointed Demographics?

by StinkyPantz in

i was wondering if there was a list of the "annointed" demographics.

like, how many in each country; or of the ones in the us, what is the break down as far as how many whites, blacks, hispanics, or asians, there are?

it seems to me that since there are approx.

Liberty

This was a great post Grits!!

I had no idea that the Society had made such a big boo-boo in one of their own publications even. Their stupidity is only surpassed by their arrogance. How dare they question the faith and sacrifice of people who suffered horribly and died under conditions that most of them have never even imagined. I'm an Atheist and still would never presume to call such faithful ones "professed Christians" since they died for their beliefs they are without question Christians of the highest order. If I were Jesus and I could choose for my co-rulers a bunch of spoiled Americans who died peacefully in their beds at 90 or people who were tortured, maimed, mutilated, burned alive, eaten by wild animals, etc. because of their belief in me....uhmmm... let's see...that's a hard one.

How these Governing Idiots can spin the crap they feed us and still sleep at night is only more amazing than the fact that so many of us once believed it. The whole heavenly/earthly class distinction is yet another in a never ending selection of wild speculations which, each on their own, prove the Watch Tower Society to be false at every turn. The 144,000 as a literal number doctrine doesn't even fit in the Society's own warped and twisted cosmology, like most Watch Tower make believe nonsense. It's such confusing crap that it looks like "deep" spiritual understanding but now we know it's just crap piled higher and deeper.

6

Anointed Demographics?

by StinkyPantz in

i was wondering if there was a list of the "annointed" demographics.

like, how many in each country; or of the ones in the us, what is the break down as far as how many whites, blacks, hispanics, or asians, there are?

it seems to me that since there are approx.

Liberty

Good Question StinkyPantz,

One of the dumbest tunnel visioned teachings of the Watch Tower Cult is that so many of this imaginary "Remnant" would be white Americans living in the early 20th Century. Even when I was in I wondered how so many spots could still be left open if 144,000 was a literal number. Just the first few centuries of "pure" Christians who were tortured and killed by the Romans for their believes should have filled this number not to mention the "true" Christians tortured and killed for the rest of the 1700 years after Christianity turned apostate (in the Watch Tower's view) up until the founding of the Watch Tower Society ("real" Christianity reestablished in their view). Since so many of these folks died for their beliefs they couldn't have gone bad and needed replacing. I just had a hard time accepting that so many slots were left for spoiled Americans whose worse persecutions included a night in a modern jail cell or being chased out of town by a mob. This belief is stupid enough on it's own time merits even before considering the race/culture bias Ol'Jehoover must have if the Watch Tower is to be believed. If the number was sealed in the early 1930's yet most of the future growth takes place in areas outside the USA it seems pretty unfair. The whole thing is obviously made up nonsense.

64

How Do You Feel About President Bush?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i like him, but he makes me a little nervous.

Liberty

Luckily we don't have to completely trust any one man as President in the USA because of our system of checks and balances. There are many intelligent and competant people who are there to regulate the behaviour or whims of any President since this office is not all powerful or dictatorial. Of the two choices we had last election I think Bush was the better of the two. Gore is just as much a spoiled rich boy as Bush and if Gore had won we'd still be negotiating with the Taliban and making deals with Bin Laden following 9-11. We were attacked, in large part, because of the weakness shown during the Clinton - Gore years. These ex-hippy utopeans, like Gore, believe you can reason and negotiate with fanatics. The truth is, that these wacko killers only understand one response to their antics and that is swift and violent retaliation resulting in their deaths.

I wish violence wasn't needed but some folks just don't understand anything less. I've had to kick some ass in my day with school bullies who were too stupid and violent to negotiate a "peaceful settlement" and only laid off after I stomped them into submission. Luckily I'm a big guy with the power to create a peaceful environment for those too stupid to understand the advantages of peace and cooperation. I'm a reasonable person who knows when to use the force I was born with. The USA is powerful but generally reasonable otherwise the rest of the world would be our slaves since we had nukes first. The rest of the world doesn't want to believe that but it's the plain truth. For all the crap we take from the ungrateful back stabbers we feed, cloth, educate, and defend around the world I think we've been more than reasonable and restrained. I don't agree with everything our government does but killing a murderous thug like Saddam who doesn't have the compasion and good sense to step down and save his own people ( and himself) the misery of an invasion will not keep me awake at night. All politicians suck, but Bush is hardly the stupidist or meanest ever seen in this world. Considering the mess the whimps Clinton and Gore left him I think Bush has done a pretty good job. When the Socialist/Commies are done destroying the USA from within the rest of the world's cry babies will wish we were still around as they eat their bread rations in a forced labor camp. "From each according to their ability to each according to their need"

Edited by - Liberty on 24 January 2003 11:8:20