Only a couple things to add.
Most dubs would rather fight then switch,
grey matter is never to be used only "correctly programmed"
libra_spirit
JoinedPosts by libra_spirit
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23
What did you learn as a JW?
by JH inwith 5 meetings a week plus field service, and additional reading of the bible and watchtower literature, what did you learn after all these years in the jw organization?
did we need all those meetings and time and effort just to know some simple details?
in all these years i spent there, this is just about all i can say i learned there: .
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54
Quesions about Jehovah
by the real truth ini am not writing these quetions to offend anyone, i am just seeking honest answers.
will you jehovah's witnesses help me in finding answers?
there is only 1 god.
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libra_spirit
I can't imagine why this is so important to you, however if the Bible says to have but one God with a capitol G, and it says Jesus is a god with a small g, then whats your problem? To the JW's it makes perfect sense. They have only one God, Jesus is a lessor god, a mighty god who is Gods chief agent in everything he does with respect to man. Are you beginning to see the difference here? Capitol G God and small g god are different respective positions held by the good side.
Sheesh!
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64
Did anything a householder said ever make an impression on you?
by Alleymom incoming at this as a householder rather than an ex-jw, i'd love to hear from any of you about comments from householders that made an impression on you, back when you were active in the door-to-door work.
since the jw's first knocked at my door 13 years ago, i've done my best to give them something to think about every time they knock at my door.
i always introduce myself by name and try to get their names.
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libra_spirit
I once knocked on a door with my presentation firmly in mind, all about how I was going to lead into a certain scripture using some clever leading questions. It had been a bad day in service and no one had even talked let alone let me finish my presentation. I got a surprise. The man behind the door immediatly invited me in and then actually started answering my leading questions. Tears flowed from his eyes as he began to relate how he had built an alter out in the woods. How Jesus had appeared to him as well as an angel and given him personal guidance. The expierence was so moving for me I was shaken and speechless. He went on about how he had fasted and prayed after a death in the family and the Lord opened the heavens of light and touched his soul. I gave up right then and there. I finally accepted the fact that most of the people I was running into at the doors knew way more then me about the spiritual existence. Most of them were far beyond anything I could offer them, and I felt quite stupid continuing to offer them a purly "mental arguement" as a "path of truth," one of fear and one of blind obedience to the Org. I realized that I was the one filled with "uncertainty" not them. I was the one who was "insecure" in my faith and had no right to be trying to change them. I was the one having no spiritual expierences, they were having plenty!
That man on that day certainly got my attention! It was because I truly felt what he was sharing with me. I didn't know if it was demons, but I did know that it was real. I knew that he could face it but that I was not prepared at all to face it.Some of the light must have touched me as well, because I never ever went back into the pioneering work after that call. I knew that it was wrong. I knew that I had merely been doing what the JW rules and regulations had stated, but that he had found the emotional meaning of God in his life and had expierenced it. For him it was real. He had been touched by the Love and Light of God, that I was proclaiming that we had, and it was an embarasment to realize this. I secretly felt shame the rest of that service day, I could not shrug it off. I was filled with fear and had no inner confidence or inner strength to face a spiritual reality. A real one that could not fit into your head, or into a watchtower article.
When faced with any truly Spiritual event, a JW becomes fearfull and retreats, having no actual training on this level, but only able to state how he thinks things are supposed to work. He will usually run like hell and shout demons get away from me, Jehovah protect me! Not really sure however wether this will in fact protect him cuz maybe he did something questionalbe yesterday. I suppose my mistake with this guy was to stand there and actually listen to his story. He was the only one that day to invite me in, so I did listen. My eyes were opened to a new reality of "expierenced truth." Rather then the usual old "well defined invisible structure" I had programmed into my mind.
It's funny that when you already have all the answers, you do not learn anything. When you finally admit you don't understand something, then the flood gates open up and knowledge flows in, and then your whole reality can change. And it feels right inside!
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57
"Do JW's and Born-Again Christians have something in common?
by jads inthis might be funny to some people but i really feel that the reason that jw's and born again christians hate each other so much is because they are so much alike.
they see themselves in each other.
i have been on both sides of the spectum and believe me all of the born-agains that post on this site are more like jw's then they want to admit to themselves.
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libra_spirit
jads,
Right on, however I think that most of the fundamintalists are usually more vocal about things when they actually get into Biblical discussions. The JW's will back down and dissapear, to go look it up in the Publications because they don't really know. The fundamintalsts seem to want to do battle for Jesus in the square. The dubs seem to want to validate the Org. using its own reasonings and literature. But the intention is the same, to convert everyone who is not in thier own mindset. Most are very rooted in thier narrow view. And both show a great oversimplification for the text of the Bible, its origins, and an understanding of the time when it was written.
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17
How do you leave the JW's ??? Let's help those trying to !!!!!!!
by run dont walk inwhat is the best way to leave the jw religion ?????.
give your experience or maybe some ideas you came up with after you left, on the best ways of getting out.. how to cope with family pressure ???
(by far the hardest issue when leaving).
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libra_spirit
Just drop off the key Lee, make a new plan Stan, jump off the bus Gus, an get yourself free.
Sounds easy, but its not!
Education, information, history, theraphy. There are many web sites today with information to help. Lots of expierence from those who are doing it, and many around who have done it. A long process that redifines almost all your mental walls, and many of your emotional ones. Could it be summed up with a single post, a "magic bullet", I wish. There are a thousand ways that people leave, DFed, DAed, or just finally wake up after a long sleep. The mind starts questioning once again, and as soon as you are ready to become open about considering all the information presto zingo you are kicking yourself for having been so gullible.
Recently I have been studying what my garndma and my dad were reading in thier respective time peroids. Grandma was of the annointed class, sounds kind of special, untill you realize that everyone in her time was. My dad saw the dates for "Christ presence" and "the begining of the time of the end" changed around a couple times in his life time. I saw the great 1975 hype rise, burn bright, and then wither in the dust, not even to have been a "marked year" later. As though it never really happened! My kids are seeing the "last generation of 1914" being redifined. Looking at these 40 or so pages of Watchtower quotes cronoligcally with all the dates for births, marraiges, and deaths in the family, you can see two things. Why my dad and other oldsters didn't get much of a kick out of the 1975 thing, and also the total and utter fallibility of the Watchtowers application of Bible Chronology. Examining the record is in fact a very good thing to do as the Society advises us all to do! From 1874 when the "slave class" (Barbour and Russell) began thier date fixing, to 2000 as they are still molding and changing it, the one constant is simply that they have never been correct, never really had an "accurate knowledge!" Lots of excuses are offered though for the faithful followers from "we never said that" to "a true phrophet can admit thier mistakes" and my favorite of all time "we meant well." How about "many read into it" or "you shouldn't be serving for a date"? Nothing like a slap in the face from the ones who came up with the dates to begin with.
Get me going!
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66
Was music better years ago than today?
by JH in.
so, was music better years ago, or is it better today?
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libra_spirit
Wow abandon, talk about trying to intellectualize music! I consider it an art form, really whats the point if you turn it into an intellectual thing and even feel the need to redifine the question...LOL! I listen to music with my emotions and so for me how could it be anything but an expierence? The question makes perfect sense to me, it is truly a matter of personal taste and expierence.
Besides everybody knows that music was the very best it could get in the 70's! With Simon and Garfunkel, Seals and Croft, Chicago, Boston, BTO, and Carol King!
Then in the late 80's there was a band called Rainjam that did music about love and the enviornment, which I just happened to be a member of. I always hated how everyone tried to clasify us into one of the little mental slots, either classical folk, or folk rock! We just played what came through us, it was creative and emotional and a lot of fun. So to all the intellectual music listeners out there I say lighten up a little and feel the music! A good heavy quick beat will always move the crowd and get way more applause then a slow sappy song. A well sounding chord progression will usually get more emotions and happy faces in the crowd then a twangy disonent punk song with flat and out of tune harmonies.
Just my opinion.
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15
I NEED SOME HELP FOR A FRIEND.......
by Mary ini'm really concerned about a close friend of mine.
she and her husband stopped going to the meeting about 10 years ago (that's not why i'm concerned) but remained pretty low-keyed up until about the last year.
we've obviously talked at great length about the religion and how it screwed us royally and have even had some laughs over it (i've shown her some of my posting here and she's roared with laughter).. a few years ago, she got a tatoo because she always wanted one and of course couldn't while she was a dub.
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libra_spirit
Mary,
It sounds to me like she is testing the water. Can you still be her friend if she chooses to smoke? She will soon find out who is really her friend and who is not. I agree with the majority of comments, let her decide she is a big girl. If you still hold her as a friend then you have passed her test.
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34
Disunity among Apostates.
by refiners fire inyou know, in the year and a half ive been here i have certainly noticed that personal conflict flourishes among the apostate/ ex dub major players (and not so major players.
) consider the irrepairable conflict between our simon and herr steinhaug and his band of norwegian major players.
consider the relatively recent bill bowen war on this board.
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libra_spirit
Refiners,
You have stated things pretty accuratly. I went through a phase of trying to rally EX dubs to my way of thinking too. It does not work. However it is the democratic way. Everyone develops thier own opinions, their own life philosephy, wether they are aware of it or not. Reading through my own posts I can redilly see the changes in my own thought processes. I would never want to discourage this free expression of thoughts and ideas. I personally would like to see the Org brought down, I share the feelings of anger towards them for thier self righteous attitude. I think the best method is EDUCATION. The future of the Org will rest on thier ability to keep bringing in new converts, educating the public in general is a tough process indeed with all the strong belief in the freedom of religion I keep running into.
One of my friends was able to get an article into the local paper, however my articles have allway gotten censored by a publisher that does not want to get sued by a church. I try to keep on hand a few educational vedios about the Org. I was able to enlighten one person who was considering starting a study with them locally. I have also been on the right board at the right time to provide facts to some who were truly investigating and considering becomming JW's. To me this is really the most satisfying thing I have ever done in this respect. Enlightening someone before they get sucked in. Maybe that is the most I can ever hope to accomplish.
Maybe at best we can all agree to disagree, and that is alright!
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I need help pleez!!!!!!
by foxy lady ini have not been to a meeting for 3 years.
i wrote to the cong and asked them to provide a copy of all info that they have on me.
they have to do this under the uk data protection act.
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libra_spirit
Well if 27 years is all you want them to have on you then why persue this at all? Is there a reason you need this info or are you just trying to get back at them to satisfy your anger? Because I don't think it will bring you much satisfaction. When you are in the Org you need them to tell you you are ok. Now that you are out do you really want them telling you that you are not ok? Even documenting to you why you are not ok. Will this really help you in some way?
I do not believe that "justice" is anything you will be able to agree on with them unless you intend on returning.
What will happen if you proceed? You will pay the money, they will send you the document stating that you are now evil because of this reason, and nothing will change. They will have won again, you will be screwed out of some money and they will still be self righteous in thier own eyes. You will still be bad in thier eyes, and they will still be blankity--blank in your eyes.
What do you expect from them anyway? An apology?
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9
Making friends after leaving the org
by Leander inhas anyone else out there had problems in this area?
its been a little more than a year since i've left the jws and as expected i lost a lot of friends, while they have'nt out right declared me off limits its clear that i'm longer considered as being close company.
usually i don't mind as i've always been a quiet kind of guy, but sometimes i really miss being able to just have a good friend to talk to every now and then.
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libra_spirit
Talk about hitting a nerve! I think every active JW probably feels like a quiet and isolated person. When the magnifying glass is turned on you it is hard to trust. My main source of new aquaintances has been the Unitiarian fellowship, as well as my involvement in the arts. It has taken a long time but I do now know several people that I really do trust, people who can keep a confidence. I have learned to observe people and just take them for what they are, not trying to change them. Also learning to accept them despite thier differing view on life has been a real valuable realization.
It takes time and you are just starting. Set a goal to meet more people and then actually get to know them. Ask questions, get them to talk about what really lights them up, and them listen. To have friends is really to learn to become a friend. Drop all urges to be judgmental or cut others off when you discover that thier views are different from yours. Realize that your views will change. Also realize that you do not have to remain friends with someone who really makes you feel uncomfortable, you can not force a friendship as the JW's would pretend is possible. Good friends are not plastic or shallow, they do not judge you or your decisions in life.
Good Luck!
:)