Posts by Lionel_P

17

Did you have dream's of bringing the society down?

by sleepy in

so when you started to work out all you thought so logical and true was actually rather pear shaped what did you think?.

"i'm ging to bring this organisation down".

"when i tell people this (whatever point you like 607 etc)they'll be shocked like me and want answers".

Lionel_P_Hartley

Mindchild,

I fully agree. However, I was really talking about what may be practical. Unfortunately, it is highly unlikely that the WTS will ever be brought to justice for what it has done. It will probably just evolve into a much less toxic form of religion. Any pressure that can make that happen more quickly should be applied.
Ultimately, the WTS itself should deal with the problems it has created, not simply go out of business and leave the rank and file high and dry.

Lionel

17

Did you have dream's of bringing the society down?

by sleepy in

so when you started to work out all you thought so logical and true was actually rather pear shaped what did you think?.

"i'm ging to bring this organisation down".

"when i tell people this (whatever point you like 607 etc)they'll be shocked like me and want answers".

Lionel_P_Hartley

sleepy,

I don't think "bringing the organisation down" should be the goal. After all, imagine if the WTS shut down, what would happen to the 6 mill + (15 mill + if you include other adherents)? The trauma that many here feel during and after leaving the WTS shows that exiting may not always be best, although for many it is currently the only option. So, what are reasonable goals?

(i) Abolish the DFing policy

(ii) Abolish the blood policy

(iii) Gradually drop the premise that the WTS speaks exclusively for God

(iv) Tweak doctrines a bit to lose the sense of urgency re: Armageddon

(v) Encourage JWs to engage in more community oriented and voluntary activities

Then it could be a pretty decent religion. Will it happen? Yes, these changes are already in progress although the WTS doesn't like to admit it for obvious reasons. The real question is, how soon?

Access to information will certainly cripple the WTS's growth unless they re-evaluate and strike out in new directions. Their ossified leaders fail to see that the Society has a huge opportunity at this point to renovate and energize it's followers.

Lionel

100

The Watchtower's Official Explanation of the Scand

by Kent in

[h3]here is the watchtower's official explanations on the un scandal![/h3.

the letter is, naturally - on the watchtower observer as well!.

yachyd da.

Lionel_P_Hartley

Not to be forgotten - and this should no we emphasized to journalists - is that an examination of the WTS's magazines _after_ 1991 showed that they did in fact spread information about the UN and markedly changed their tone about the UN, at least in Awake! magazine. This clearly shows that they understood the criteria.

Lionel

48

A WTS lie for UN "association"

by hawkaw in

full deposit: publications and masthead documents in english.

partial deposit: publications in english.

Lionel_P_Hartley

Youu Knoww,

It doesn't help at all; of course you are free to discount a long record of hypocrisy and lying by God's sole channel of communication with mankind but most wouldn't. As for the uniqueness of the WTS's relations with the UN, it isn't that special at all. Think of the currying of favor with the Nazis and, less directly, with the Mexican Military. However, primarily it is merely hypocrisy since the UN has no actual role in prophecy. The WTS may think it does, but it used to think that the World Court was the Scarlet-Coloured beastie until an update was called for. So, you see, the WTS only lies and acts the hypocrite because of its nutcase prophecies which have a 100% failure rate. The WTS, like you, continually updates (literally) its prophecies. "We have dates it cries. And if you don't like them, as you won't when we don't, then we have other dates ready to go."

By their fruits shall ye know them. Your casual dismissal of organized lying and hypocrisy by the Slave shows that you and they exhibit a common fruit - and it is rotten. In fact, it smells like an overripe durian to me.

Lionel

48

A WTS lie for UN "association"

by hawkaw in

full deposit: publications and masthead documents in english.

partial deposit: publications in english.

Lionel_P_Hartley

You Know,

Since you obviously didn't notice my post, let me ask again; explain how the Society's recent actions in regard to the UN affair (hypocrisy and then lying, in a somewhat juveline and You Know-esque fashion, to cover up their hypocrisy) differ from how the Society has operated in the past - since its inception in fact.

Can you do that? After all you must have time on yr hands now that your very latest October prediction has fizzled like the 6 - 7 that went before. So with yr Kingly ambitions reigned in, temporariliy of course, why not take a stab at actually proving yr assertions. That would be a first, I know, but you might even get to like it.

Sincerely,

Lionel

"The past is a foreign land - they do things differently there. But not when it comes to the WTS for which hypocrisy and lying is the same now as it was when these false prophets started."

48

A WTS lie for UN "association"

by hawkaw in

full deposit: publications and masthead documents in english.

partial deposit: publications in english.

Lionel_P_Hartley

You Know,

Your post would make some sense if one could trace the Society's history back to its origins and demonstrate (i) that recent actions are substantially at odds with past practice and (ii) that the WTS has only recently started to lie to cover up its mistakes, false prophetic speculations and its oscillatory doctrines.

Unfortunately, current WTS practice is fully consistent with the past. Ergo, the WTS has always been apostate since, obviously, God's true organization produces different fruits.

You yourself are also an example of the same type of dishonesty.

With best wishes,

Lionel

48

I've Had It - I Just Can't Do it Anymore

by troubled in

jw
friends

well, it seems we're back to the same "you're a troll; you're not a troll" thing.

it seems that my posts make too many of you "uncomfortable," you have an "intuition," you "can't put your finger on it," whatever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

i thought this was a place where people can post and be heard.

Lionel_P_Hartley

troubled,

You never struck me as a "troll" at all. You seem genuinely upset - something that trolls don't get. I also don't think you're leaving because you've been defeated. It takes a long time to figure this stuff out. You have raised some good points that merit discussion, not simply being labelled a "troll." Sometimes that's the lazy way out, although I am not targetting anyone here.

Good luck,

Lionel

21

Question about Accuracy & Persuasion

by troubled in

jw
friends

in my social psychology class, we are studying a chapter on persuasion.

here is an interesting excerpt from our study book, "social psychology: unraveling the mystery" by douglas kenrick, steven neuberg, and robert cialdini, page 171. please tell me if you think it applies to jws, ex-jws, and this board in general.. .

p. 170, "done deals".

Lionel_P_Hartley

troubled,

A logic class might help. The problem is that one has to be genuinely committed to unlearning the almost automatic thought processes that years in the org. inculcates. Sometimes a shock to one's reality is needed, otherwise it is just a really long process. Really, only the individual can do what is necessary to find the truth.

lionel

21

Question about Accuracy & Persuasion

by troubled in

jw
friends

in my social psychology class, we are studying a chapter on persuasion.

here is an interesting excerpt from our study book, "social psychology: unraveling the mystery" by douglas kenrick, steven neuberg, and robert cialdini, page 171. please tell me if you think it applies to jws, ex-jws, and this board in general.. .

p. 170, "done deals".

Lionel_P_Hartley

troubled,

You make some good points - however, it is possible to analyse information objectively once one has trained oneself to do that. For example, the scientific method can be used to analyse the validity of certain theories or hypotheses. It is simply not true that all information is equally valid and that its meaning depends on interpretation. There are well established logical devices that can be used to decide whether something is accurate, reasonable, verifiable, etc.

JWs may discount information that conflicts with the central dogma of their religion - that the GB speaks for God. However, objective analysis demonstrates that the GB does not speak for God and that they are in fact prepared to lie, as in the UN thing.

The WTS could, for example, simply publish all information relating to its application to the UN. Why doesn't it do that? Presumably it is because it understands only too well that doing so now would show them to be (i) hypocrites and (ii) liars. If what you said was correct, then it could simply publish everything and then argue that its interpretation of that material is such that the WTS did no wrong.

Lionel

46

UN involvement announced at Assembly?

by Simon in

i heard from someone that the wts was going to or had already announced something about the un involvement at an assembly.

anyone else heard of this or is it a local thing ?.

i would guess they may have only done this because of the coverage in the uk national newspaper which they know they have to counter.

Lionel_P_Hartley

Y,

:-)

Lionel_P_Hartley

Posts by Lionel_P_Hartley