Posts by lisaBObeesa

34

There is law that can be applied to being DFed or DA

by Giordano in

jw
friends

http://church-discipline.blogspot.com/2008/01/marian-guinn-vs-church-of-christ.html.

liasobessa brought this site to our attention on another related topic.

as i began to read i found that the information was excellent and extensive.

lisaBObeesa

The Watchtower (2007)w07 1/15 pp. 17-20
When Discipline Is Severe

If your child is unrepentant and is a baptized Christian, he may receive the strongest form of discipline —being disfellowshipped from the congregation .

The Watchtower says disfellowshipping is 'strongest form of discipline'=disfellowshipping=severe discipline.

YEt, there is no difference between the announcement to the congregation for a DF or DA persons and there is no difference in the discipline give to DF or DA persons.

the discipline is congregational shunning.

Therefore, it is a fact that DA people not only DO recieve congregational discipline, it is the same discipline that the Watchtower itself calls 'severe' and the 'strongest form of discipline' when they talk about it in the context of DF.

The JWs can (and do) say that DA people don't recieve congregation discipline, but it is an undeniable fact that they do.

THe fact that they lie about this does not mean they are on sound legal ground. I would submit it means the opposite.

9

Tampa Bay Times Article about Shunning

by Interested Observer in

jw
friends

http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/scientology-clergy-force-a-mother-to-choose-son-or-daughter/2170325.

lisaBObeesa

Notice how, just like the WTBTS, they lie about the requirement to shun:

That collides head on with Scientology's official position. "There is no policy in Scientology that requires Church members to disconnect from anyone,'' the church says on its website, Scientology.org.

34

There is law that can be applied to being DFed or DA

by Giordano in

jw
friends

http://church-discipline.blogspot.com/2008/01/marian-guinn-vs-church-of-christ.html.

liasobessa brought this site to our attention on another related topic.

as i began to read i found that the information was excellent and extensive.

lisaBObeesa

If a JW resigns or disassociates, no disciplinary action is taken by the congregation. A simple announcement is made that so-and-so is no longer one of jehovah's witnesses. Family and friends who want to avoid being dis-fellowshipped themselves will necessarily shun the ex-jw.

The shunning that the disasoicated person recieves IS the disciplinary action, and as you noted it is REQUIRED that the congregation shun(discipline). The shunning happens BECAUSE of the announcement.

No announcement, no shunning.

disciplinary action=Announcement=congregational shunning.

The shunning continues until the elders announce the person is reinstated. reinstated=end of discipline=end of shunning.

The announcement IS the shunning IS the discipline.

But, by using code words, the WTBTS tries to make it look as if the announcment is nothing.

The announcement is EVERYTHING.

34

There is law that can be applied to being DFed or DA

by Giordano in

jw
friends

http://church-discipline.blogspot.com/2008/01/marian-guinn-vs-church-of-christ.html.

liasobessa brought this site to our attention on another related topic.

as i began to read i found that the information was excellent and extensive.

lisaBObeesa

all that is stated to the congregation is, "John Doe is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses". Nothing defamatory, and if the person has D/A'd, it's simply the truth.

The word "disfellowshipped" is never used from the platform to describe someone who has been booted!

That is how the WTBTS defends itself.

Yet, we all know that the announcement DOES defame the individual and the announcement does REQUIRE the congregation to shun the person announced.

Everyone here and everyone at the KH knows the announcement "so-and-so is no longer a JW" is not 'simply the truth.' That announcment is a code that means the person is an unrepentant sinner and/or evil apostate and that the congregation is required to shun them.

So the WTBTS uses word games to hide these facts, because if these FACTS were proven, they could and would be SUED.

They are doing something they can be sued for and they are hiding it in plain sight with a few silly words that they define and re-define depending on the audience.

This cover-up must be exposed.

55

Research on legal implications of group shunning

by BreathoftheIndianNose in

jw
friends

hey everyone!

i haven't posted here in a while, over a year i think.

just goes to show where i'm at in the recovery stage.

lisaBObeesa

It seems to me that the WTBTS does engage in continuous discipine and harassment by encourageing it's followers to shun a DA or DF person especially when it comes to a person's family.

I would add that the WTBTS does not encourage its followers to shun a DA or DF person, the WTBTS requires its followers to shun a DA or DF person.

Also, in the WTBTS, the word 'disfellowshipping' or 'disassociating' is used as if it is separate from the shunning of the congregation, but this is not the case. In actual fact, DF is: the judgement that the person is removed from the congregation along with the announcement that is the signal that the congregation is required to shun the person.

DF and DA ALWAYS include the group shunning.

Shunning starts and stops when the elders announce DF/DA starts or stops.

DF/DA and congregation shunning are one and the same thing. You can't have one without the other. They are both part of the same one process, the discipline process used by the elders.

The WTBTS goes to a lot of trouble to hide that fact by playing word games, but it IS the fact.

57

Regional Convention Program Posted

by kneehighmiah in

jw
friends

http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/b8/co-pgm14_e.pdf.

i think i will want to kill myself during the friday afternoon symposium.

it should be called "how to not enjoy life or have fun.".

lisaBObeesa

It means the others are direct quotes from the bible but the last one is not a direct quote but a statement based on their interpretation of Matthew 25 - and boy do they self-servingly twist the meaning of Matthew 25! That text is clearly about charitable acts toward christians, but they twist it to mean helping the Watchtower spread its propaganda from house to house.

Yes. It will be interesting to see what they say in this part of the talk. They should have made it: Those that help "the least" of Christs brothers

..because that is the point of the verse...

10:20 Symposium:Who Will Inherit God’s Kingdom?

Those “Who Are Poor” (Luke6:20; Matthew5:3)

Those Who “Become as Young Children” (Matthew18:2-4)

Those “Persecuted for Righteousness’ Sake” (Matthew5:10)

Those Who Help Christ’s Brothers (Matthew25:34)

Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. 35 For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably;+ 36 naked* and you clothed me.+ I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me.’+ 37 Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?+ 38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’+

Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, + you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire + prepared for the Devil and his angels. + 42 For I became hungry, but you gave me nothing to eat; and I was thirsty, but you gave me nothing to drink. 43 I was a stranger, but you did not receive me hospitably; naked, but you did not clothe me; sick and in prison, but you did not look after me.’ 44 Then they too will answer with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of these least ones, you did not do it to me.’ + 46 These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, * + but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”

55

Research on legal implications of group shunning

by BreathoftheIndianNose in

jw
friends

hey everyone!

i haven't posted here in a while, over a year i think.

just goes to show where i'm at in the recovery stage.

lisaBObeesa

Let Jehovah’s Discipline Mold You (‎2 occurrences)

17 Disfellowshipping is another type of discipline from Jehovah.

w13 6/15 pp. 24-28 - The Watchtower—2013

1) Disfellowshipping is discipline according to the Watchtower.

The Watchtower (2007)w07 1/15 pp. 17-20

The situation is different if the disfellowshipped one is not a minor and is living away from home. The apostle Paul admonished Christians in ancient Corinth: “Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.” (1 Corinthians 5:11) While caring for necessary family matters may require some contact with the disfellowshipped person, a Christian parent should strive to avoid needless association…..

…Rely on Jehovah in prayer. Regularly associate with the Christian congregation. Support the discipline of appointed shepherds. By doing so, you will be able to remain steadfast.

2) Shunning is ‘supporting the discipline’ …actively participating in the discipline that has been given by the elders. This is obviously so since the shunning ends the moment the elders end the discipline (reinstate a person). The shunning IS the discipline that the elders are applying.

From the blog “Church Discipline” under the post “Why not keep going on with discipline after a member leaves”

http://church-discipline.blogspot.com/2008/12/why-not-to-keep-going-on-with.html

Why is a bad idea to continue church discipline on non members?

First off it is violation of domestic law. Religion in American is a consensual affair at all times not permanent contract. A person's relationship with a religion ends the moment they say it ends. It is a violation of first amendment rights to assert religious authority over someone without their consent. Marian Guinn vs Church of Christ Collinsville is an important case where the courts were definitive, "No real freedom to choose religion would exist in this land if under the shield of the First Amendment religious institutions could impose their will on the unwilling and claim immunity from secular judicature for their tortious acts." A similar case involving a Mormon was Norman Hancock, with the same result the Hancock was awarded damanges as the court saw continuing a disciplinary process on a non member to be a violation of their civil rights.

3) The courts have found that continuing a disciplinary process on a non member to be a violation of their civil rights.

57

Regional Convention Program Posted

by kneehighmiah in

jw
friends

http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/b8/co-pgm14_e.pdf.

i think i will want to kill myself during the friday afternoon symposium.

it should be called "how to not enjoy life or have fun.".

lisaBObeesa

Please clarify in "What must come second place, Health". Does that mean if you have cancer, or something as serious, the kingdom comes first instead of live-saving medical appointments??

my guess at a JW answer:

"Oh, No, no, no, no! That is not what that means. ....but yes, 'the Kingdom' must come first, before anything else, even concerns over health."

57

Regional Convention Program Posted

by kneehighmiah in

jw
friends

http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/b8/co-pgm14_e.pdf.

i think i will want to kill myself during the friday afternoon symposium.

it should be called "how to not enjoy life or have fun.".

lisaBObeesa

Lisa -But no quotes on 'Those who help Christ's Brothers.' What does that mean?

punk- It means....give all your money to the GB.

Oh yeah, right...right.

Interesting that it has loaded meaning like all the others but in this one case they don't "announce" the loaded meaning with quotes...

57

Regional Convention Program Posted

by kneehighmiah in

jw
friends

http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/b8/co-pgm14_e.pdf.

i think i will want to kill myself during the friday afternoon symposium.

it should be called "how to not enjoy life or have fun.".

lisaBObeesa

9:40 Symposium:Who Will Not Inherit God’s Kingdom? (1Corinthians6:9-11)

“Sexually Immoral ” People

“Idolaters”

“Greedy People”

“Revilers”

^^^All those words in quotes... Each word loaded with extra meanings.... so that they can fit everyone in the world who is not a JW into this category...

10:20 Symposium:Who Will Inherit God’s Kingdom?

Those “Who Are Poor” (Luke6:20; Matthew5:3)

Those Who “Become as Young Children” (Matthew18:2-4)

Those “Persecuted for Righteousness’ Sake” (Matthew5:10)

Those Who Help Christ’s Brothers (Matthew25:34)

^^^Again the words in quotes, loaded with extra-scriptural meanings. But no quotes on 'Those who help Christ's Brothers.' What does that mean?