Posts by LoneWolf

My heart is with you. I too had to make such a decision. It all finally came down to one thing: I had to speak truth, without the fear of man influencing me. That became even more important than life itself. I wanted to be able to (symbolically, of course) look Jehovah square in the eye during judgement day and say truthfully, "I did everything I knew how to stand firmly for what is right."

This is something that I wrote some time back. I gave a copy of it to my father, who promptly turned it over to the elders. I also posted it here. Perhaps it will help a little.

Dear Dad and Mom,

Over the past year or so, I’ve felt bad as I could see your disappointment due to my not coming back into good standing with the congregation. I’ve held my piece as much as possible out of respect for your own consciences, as I’ve tried very hard not to put you in the position of violating them. Then again, I didn’t really know how to put into words the things that are in my heart.

I can also see the disappointment in your eyes, as you apparently feel that I value “my pride” over the unity of the family, a thing that couldn’t be further from the truth. Pride has nothing to do with it, and that you feel that way is especially frustrating for me.

A few months ago, someone in the Los Angeles area was reading some of my writings and sent me an email requesting advice. His questions stimulated my own thoughts and the results surprised even myself, for the answers to his questions answered some of my own.

As you may know, I’ve spent a little time looking over some of the web sites on the internet that are frequented by ex-witnesses and have been rather horrified by what I’ve found. The spiritual devastation is appalling. So, curious, I posted these thoughts on the board in order to see what kind of response I might get. They were numerous, warm, and in some cases thankful, for I had expressed in words what many of them felt themselves.

I ran across this answer again a few days ago, and it occurred to me that it is something that might help you to understand too. With that hope, I’m passing it on to you. Here it is, word for word as it was posted.

To all ---About Faith.

I’ve been rather thoughtful these last few days. I’ve tuned in and mainly lurked fairly often, but it just didn’t seem to have the desire to comment on much. However one thing has been bothering me. It was brought on as a result of reading all of the comments and condolences concerning WitnetObservers death, and as the result of a request for advice I received by email.

I think in some of my previous posts I’ve made a few comments to the effect that I was affected very little by my disfellowshipping, especially as to faith, and that is true. Actually, my faith is stronger now than at any other time of my life, including those times that we moved to unassigned territory or pioneered. Now it just feels comfortable, peaceful, almost proven, and there is an eagerness in it that surpasses anything I’ve ever known before.

Now be patient with me here. While that may sound like bragging, or even a crowing over others, I don’t feel that way at all. Actually, it bothers me, because in looking around at others who have experienced the same sort of shabby treatment from the Society, I see a considerable amount of agony. The hopeful comments that Joe will now be at peace instead of the mental anguish that he experienced in life is a good example of what I am speaking of here.

In others I see that they have almost completely lost faith in anything, even the Bible and Jehovah himself. In realizing the fact that they were at one time, like me, in the congregations and thoroughly believing all of these things, is rather startling to me. The question that bothers me so much is this: These are normal people. Why have I not been as drastically affected as they have? Am I a freak or something? (No wise guys, now. GGG)

I’ve always attributed this equanimity to the fact that I was a loner. I never really cared all that much what man’s opinion was. If someone said something, I’d check it out, even as the Bible says that we should. If that somebody got his dander up due to my checking it out, that was good, excellent even. After all, like it says in Zedekiah 3:8 --- “Always keep a pompous ass in a state of perpetual outrage. It’s the ONLY Christian way to fly.”

But in responding to that email, I had occasion to look at things a little differently, and I think I stumbled across another reason that is a bit more profound. I’d like to run it before you, as I’d be interested in your comments.

Here ‘tis:

I feel that I have been in the doghouse most of my life due to my own insistence on not doing things because I was “supposed to”. I felt that it was highly important that I do them because I wanted to and decided to. Others, of course, usually interpret that as an independent streak or even rebelliousness.

It wasn’t, though. It truly bothered my conscience, and it took a long time to figure out how to express that in words.

You undoubtedly remember such scriptures as 1 Thess. 5:19 where it says “Do not put out the fire of the spirit”; like Col. 3:23, “Whatever you are doing, work at it whole-souled as to Jehovah, and not to men” (my italics); of how we are supposed to have joy, as it is a fruitage of the spirit (Gal. 5:22); such as Matt. 22:37, You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind”; and when teaching, that we should be careful to “sound it down into their hearts”.

It seemed to me that many individuals and even the organization itself was doing exactly that: “putting out the fire of the spirit.” Let’s examine some of the ways they were doing that:

On the simplest level, such things as joy and love are not things that we can get simply because we are “supposed to” have them. They are things that are delicate and precious and have to be nurtured. They stem from the things we have in our life such as our activities and associations. We cannot force these qualities out of ourselves any more than we can force them out of our wives and children by beating on them until they give it to us.

Those who condemn others for not having enough love for God or joy in their service are on a par with those who would condemn someone for bleeding just because they got stabbed. The only things they accomplish are to demonstrate their own lack of understanding as to what true love and joy is, and to add to the load of the one they are trying to motivate.

To lay a guilt trip on such ones only makes things worse, for love that is forced is not love. It is at best only fealty. Likewise joy that is forced is not joy. It is a hypocritical false front that destroys one’s self-respect and confidence. Both are destructive to the individual himself (or herself) and to any relationship he may have with his heavenly father. Long term exposure to such things can lead to everything from a hatred of those he should love - to suicide.

To have a lack of love or joy in one’s service to God does not necessarily mean that one’s heart condition is bad. In my experience, the problem is usually that someone or something is obscuring that one’s vision or understanding of what Jehovah desires of us. That leads us to the next problem.

There are far too many numbskulls (Paul called them “superfine apostles” in 2 Cor. 11:5 & 12:11) who seem to have convinced themselves that they are so holy that they have the right, responsibility, and moral capital to pass judgement on every aspect of other people’s faith. To illustrate, as it is now, we cannot get baptized – without someone else’s permission. We cannot pioneer – without someone else’s permission. We cannot express ourselves in meeting – without someone else’s permission. We cannot raise questions – without someone else’s permission. Of course, all of these things can be argued interminably, so let’s just cut to the chase by using an illustration: How long would you tolerate someone standing between you and your wife in order to pass judgement on and guarantee that everything you said to her was just so?

Likewise, anyone who stands between me and the God that I love in order to make sure that I do everything just so, is an interloper and meddler. And I don’t give the foggiest damn how holy he thinks he is or how much his butt weighs. There is war in camp until he moves that stinking butt. Indeed, I feel so strongly about this that I have no intentions whatsoever of giving him any respect, let alone appeasement, and won’t be satisfied unless he’s running in panic with his tail between his legs and yelling “Ki-yi, ki-yi, ki-yi!” all the way out the door. (The one exception to that, of course, is Jesus Christ himself.)

Let’s look at it another way. We desire our wife’s love and we have authority. Suppose we lay down the requirements that she “prove her love” by coming to us every hour on the hour and smooching us up real good and submitting to sex promptly at 10:00 every morning and evening. Let’s also say that she actually cooperated with this arrangement. Now, would this prove that she loved us? Or could it mean that she is afraid of us and doesn’t want to make us mad? My point here is that in such things as true love, whole-souled service, and joy, there is an element of spontaneity. There is a freedom from fear and a knowledge that if we are not absolutely perfect that it will not be held against us.

So tell me, how can we exercise this spontaneity toward Jehovah while someone is standing between us, watching every move we make, and demanding that we ask their permission before doing anything whatsoever? Their very presence destroys the spirit, as he is demanding that we serve him, a man, rather than God.

As to the thought about “sounding these things down into our hearts”: here too we must consider the mechanics of how such a thing is done. If all we do is take the word of these “superfine apostles” that we should believe simply because they are holy and they tell us to (as seems to be the requirement these days), then we are building our house upon sand. Why? Because all they have to do is make one mistake of any kind and it calls into question all of what they have taught. Moreover, we violate the commandment given to all of us to “test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, . . .” (1 John 4:1)

Rather, Paul emphasizes in his definition; “Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities (those that have evidence demonstrating their authenticity) though not beheld.” (Heb. 11:1 --- Italics are mine.) Because somebody says so is not evidence, and faith without this evidence is not faith. It is gullibility.

The point is this: To sound things down into our heart, we must have the freedom to test, to question, to probe, to challenge, to bounce it on the floor, to hit it with a hammer, to dip it in acid, to do whatever it takes to convince our hearts that it is something to be trusted. That is impossible to do as long as someone is standing there demanding we believe because they tell us to.

There is no way to overemphasize the importance of this. Its import extends far beyond our own salvation, but goes to the very core of the heavenly dispute between Jehovah and Satan. Here’s how:

"Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me." (Proverbs 27: 11) There is no way to escape the conclusion that Jehovah needs something from us, and that it is important. You may remember this passage in the “Truth” book:

"Satan's false charges against God may be illustrated, to a certain extent, in a human way. Suppose a man having a large family is accused by one of his neighbors of many false things about the way he manages his household. Suppose the neighbor also says that the family members have no real love for their father but only stay with him to obtain the food and material things he gives them. How might the father of the family answer such charges? If he simply used violence against the accuser, this would not answer the charges. Instead, it might suggest that they were true. But what a fine answer it would be if he permitted his own family to be his witnesses to show that their father was indeed a just and loving family head and that they were happy to live with him because they loved him! Thus he would be completely vindicated. --- Proverbs 27: 11; Isaiah 43: 10." (The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life, page 67, paragraph 7.)

This makes sense as far as it goes. But upon reflection one must realize that there has to be more to it than that. To let one's own family provide the answer would work only under the right conditions, otherwise Satan need merely claim that Jehovah had intimidated them into it. "Well, sure, they would say that. After all, if they say any different you will kick them out in the cold like you did Adam and Eve."

He could also claim that because Jehovah had poisoned our minds we are too frightened to examine the evidence impartially. Or he could say that we cling to Jehovah for the simple reason that that is all we know and that we would never stick to him if we were aware of all the wonderful things he (Satan) had for us.

The only way for such questions to be answered is for Satan himself to have access to us. AND if our answers are to be of any use whatsoever, then they must be uniquely ours. No careful repetition of dogma, no predetermined “approved” phrasing of words, and no blind following of others’ instructions will do any good whatsoever.

They must come straight from our own heart. This is the reason that we will all be tested alone at the time of the end. How can we form that answer without practice? How can we get that practice if someone else is constantly interfering and condemning us for “thinking independently”?

To go back to the illustration above, while it would be absolutely infuriating to have someone step between a man and his wife, it could also be very damaging to their relationship. It’s much like when a woman is raped. Even though it may not be her fault whatsoever, the relationship with her husband changes dramatically, and not for the good.

Could you be in a similar situation now? That thanks to those meddlers, your relationship with Jehovah has become strained, uncomfortable, and severely damaged? That the reason you argue so vehemently against the Society and others was not so much that you hated them, but because you had to have time to think and try to heal your spiritual relationship? (I realize that there are many other and good reasons. I’m just wondering what a factor, if any, that this was.) But that the situation is so confused, thanks to them, that you don’t know where to start?

I’ve come to realize that this is probably the biggest reason that these things haven’t affected me as much. I’ve always tested everything out using the worst acid tests I could devise and paid no attention whatever to those fools who thought they were indispensable to my spiritual well being. To find that they were not worthy of my confidence came as no surprise, because I never really thought they were anyway.

What are your thoughts?

LoneWolf (My on-line handle)

Now, I realize that there is probably much of this that you do not approve of, but I would greatly prefer that you disapprove of something that is real, rather than some nonsensical fiction like “my hurt pride”.

Dad, you’ve always looked disgusted whenever I say that I will not compromise my integrity. Hopefully, this will convince you that I mean what I say and that there is substance to it.

In any event, thank you for my life, and for being my parents.

All my love,

5

"What is truth?"

by qwerty in

jw
friends

what is truth?.

by roger c. palms.

when someone asks, what is truth?

LoneWolf

Hi again. Thought I'd add this item:

My daughter married a young man of Mescalero Apache descent. He is a recognized "story-teller" of his tribe, one who recounts the ancient legends to the younger generations during their pow-wows.

One of those legends has a sentiment very similar to some of the things Palms wrote. I thought you would be interested in comparing them.

As you read it, picture an older man sitting on a rock, with the fire light flickering across his face, as the young of the tribe gather quietly around and listen raptly to his words, for that is exactly the way it happened for more generations than we can know. Here it is, in his own words:

THE ORIGIN OF STRIFE

“Long time ago, in a time before time, when men and women lived deep in the center of the earth in the Point of Origin, there they lived with Creator, and they were learning all that they needed to know.

“Soon the time came for people to go out into the new world that Creator was making. Creator brought everyone to the Counsel Fire, and told them of Creator’s plan. ‘You will go off, each of you in your tribes and in your bands, and you will go off to the four corners of the earth; to the north, to the south, to the east, and to the west, and with you, you will take the Truth of the Light and of the Fire. You are to be caretakers of this truth and this light. As you travel and as you journey, and when you meet others like you, you will take your truth and you will share it with the people that you meet along the way, for when you are able to share your truth with other people, and when you are able to listen to the truth that lives in another’s heart, I will again be with you, and all will be at peace.’

“So the Truth was divided and given to the different tribes and the different bands, and so the different tribes and the different bands emerged from the Point of Origin and stretched out across the new world and traveled great distances to the north and to the south and to the east and to the west and for many people it was a long, hard journey, and it had been a long time since they had seen anyone else from the Point of Origin. They grew lonely, and from their loneliness came anger.

How soon they had forgotten what Creator had told them! They believed that they had the only One Truth and that somehow everyone else had been fools. They became defenders of their truth. And they fought for their truth. And one day they began to kill for their truth.

“They had forgotten what Creator had told them about sharing and about listening and about coming together. That is why people still fight today. And so my gift to you all, is to share the Truth of the Light that lives within me, and as I tell this story, I stretch out my hand to you, in the hopes that you will tell me your family stories, and that soon together we can all be at peace.”

I like those sentiments.

LoneWolf

5

"What is truth?"

by qwerty in

jw
friends

what is truth?.

by roger c. palms.

when someone asks, what is truth?

LoneWolf

Hello, qwerty,

I enjoyed your thoughts, as I too have been contemplating such matters. I posted the following here on the board some time back, but don't know if you saw it then, so am reposting it now just in case.

I would like to claim that it is all original, but it is not. One Mike A. (the only name I know him by) is the professor of ethics that I mention in it, and others have added their thought too.

I felt that the two articles complemented each other. Here !tis:

“What Is Truth?”

To my readers: This article is not for the purpose of “instructing” you in anything, but simply submitted in the hope that you can use some of these concepts or (especially desired) add to them. My thought is that we all use up too much time and effort fighting over our respective “truths” and completely overlook the marvelous opportunity to use other’s insights to advance the body of human knowledge beyond where it is now.

Pontius Pilate’s question to Jesus, “What is truth?” (John 18:38) is as apropos now as it was then. Billions of people have pondered that question down over the milleniums.

Ever since mankind has come into existence they have been gaining in knowledge. It was slow at first and gradually picked up speed until, in the past two centuries, it has literally exploded. That knowledge has turned much, if not most, of our ancestor's knowledge on its head.

This steady advance in knowledge is normal, natural, and prophesied. It was mentioned numerous times in the Bible. 1 Corinthians 13: 9-12 is a good example, while 1 Peter 1: 11, 12 enlarges on it to the extent that even the angels themselves were looking forward to additional knowledge. Ezekiel's vision as recorded in Ezekiel 47: 1-6 is especially enlightening inasmuch as most authorities understand that the "water" spoken of here is a reference to knowledge and how it increases down through the centuries.

Due to this factor, then, we function on the premise that everything is subject to examination and nothing and no one is too sacred to escape that examination.

The Three Kinds of Truth

A learned friend of mind, a professor of ethics in an eastern university, divided truth into these three categories:

1. Absolute Truth --- That truth which corresponds to absolute reality, and is usually known only to our heavenly creator and to those whom he decides to give it. The term "absolute reality" refers to the totality of knowledge that exists on any given subject as viewed through His eyes.

2. Relative Truth --- The progress that we imperfect humans make toward gaining "Absolute Truth", but never quite reach in spite of our best efforts. There is always more to learn.

3. Relative Truth Believed Absolutely --- A "Relative Truth" that we have gained such confidence in that we refuse to consider any further evidence concerning it.”

I find this concept fascinating in that it is a way to structure knowledge and emphasize to all regardless of our education or intelligence, that there is a whole world of “truth” out there that is as yet untouched. To those who understand it, it tends to reduce conflict and encourage the sharing of viewpoints without ego interfering with our helping one another to advance. It is a way to sharpen one another’s “face”, as the scripture says. (Prov. 27:17) It’s a whole new frontier where everyone can explore and be thrilled by their part in it.

It also clearly depicts a danger that we are all prone to make.

Expanded Thinking

We might view it in this manner:

Truth is much like an artichoke. It has many leaves and each leaf has a small amount of nutrient under it. Most people will pull off a few leaves, be satisfied with what they’ve found, and never think that it would be advantageous to pull off a few more to see what is under them too.

To illustrate: Most of us know that 1+1=2. It becomes to many a “relative truth believed absolutely’ that they ‘know’ and won’t question. However, is it always?

What if we are dealing in the binary base where the only numbers used are “0” and “1”? Then it isn’t 2, it’s 10. At one time, such a concept would have been considered a silly mind game, but now that principle is the very heart of the computer world. They wouldn’t work without it. Who would have believed a century ago that the binary base would come to have such importance in the world now?

Or what if we are in the world of biology? There 1+1 can equal 2, or 200, or 2,000, or 2,000,000. It all depends upon how long the 1 has been with the other 1. Look at the rabbits in Australia and all of the environmental damage they’ve caused.

Please note that neither of these “expanded” concepts contradicts the original. They merely add to the standard body of “Truth”.

Another example of the different layers of truth would be a riddle I’ll bet you’ve heard. It’s about a bear hunter and goes like this:

The hunter woke up in the morning, ate breakfast, grabbed his rifle and left camp looking for bears. After walking one mile due south, he spotted a bear to the east. Heading due east, he caught up to the bear and shot and killed it at a point exactly one mile from where he first saw it. After skinning it out, he packed the hide exactly one mile due north, which brought him back to his camp, only to discover that another bear had raided the camp.

Now, what was the color of the bear that raided the camp?

Most people will say that the problem is impossible in the first place, as if one were to go one mile south, one mile east, and one mile north, he won’t be back at his camp. He’ll still be one mile east of camp.

Others, though, will feel good about themselves as they’ve recognized that the clues are in the directions. They can see that if the camp was set up exactly on the North Pole, you would end up right back where you started. The eastern leg would be merely an arc going around the pole. From there the answer is obvious. The bear was white.

However, we can take this one step further. There is an infinity of other places upon the earth where we can follow the same directions and still get back to the same place. Can you tell me the general locale where they exist, and what the route will look like?

It is this “expanded thinking” that can be extremely valuable. It is from there that we gain new knowledge and add to our ‘”relative truths”. Just like wandering through an unexplored wilderness, one never knows what will be discovered.

Identifying Those “Leaves”

One way to discover new knowledge is to search for commonalties or “patterns” in things that are seemingly unrelated.

An excellent example of one would be the experience of Dmitri I. Mendeleev and the way he came to formulate his Periodic Table of Elements. He noticed that some of the various elements had similar qualities, and that they appeared on a predictable basis in relationship to their atomic weight. (For further information, please check him out in the encyclopedia.)

But let’s look an example in another subject. The need for love, peace, kindness, honesty, integrity, and a host of other qualities are yearned for by people of all races, languages, and eras. The laws as set forth by Genghis Khan reflect an astonishingly similar value system as that of the laws given to Israel, even though the man was neither Christian or Jewish nor familiar with either. That these same feelings are found in all peoples is de facto evidence that this is the way that Jehovah designed us, as well as a witness to His qualities.

I would say in regard to the ‘heavenly court case’ that is going on right now between Jehovah and Satan, that a good attorney could make a beautiful ‘closing argument’ on the basis of that one commonality alone. Satan keeps maintaining that all humans prefer his ways of doing things, but when humans strive to get as close to Jehovah’s ways as possible even when they are unaware of them, it makes Satan look like a fool.

It has been said that much can be told about an artist by examining his works. If even the stones can bear a witness (Luke 19:40), how much more can a living thing? This is why I have always laughed at the concept of removing all windows from Kingdom Halls, ostensibly for the reason that the young will be less distracted from the proceedings under way. If the truth was known, the average tree can give a better witness to Jehovah’s qualities than the average elder. One just has to know how to “read” the language.

Of course, both are valuable, each in its own unique way. They compliment each other.

Another Valuable Resource

There are those who frown on reading or dealing with contrary thought. Those who do, appear to have forgotten a few things. In 1 Cor. 9:19-20, Paul speaks of how he strove to become different things to different people in order that “ . . . I may become a sharer of it (the good news) with others.” To do that means becoming familiar with what and how they believe. At times it is necessary to know their beliefs even better than they do.

Of course, that by no means indicates that we should become exactly what they are, even as the passage points out more than once. Rather, he’s saying that it is necessary to know their thought processes. In a very real way it is like learning another language, it’s just that the two languages happen to use the same words.

Then too, we might just ask ourselves these questions: Is truth weaker than falsehood? If not, then why are we afraid?

Here are some other advantages to knowing contrary thought:

a. Contrary thought provides the questions that need answered.

b. Most advances spring from unusual, independent, or heretical thinking. Even if an idea is totally crazy, it may trigger a good one in someone else’s mind.

c. In looking over our work, we can contrast it with the old and see the advantages for ourselves.

d. So that we will have the tools and freedom necessary to make a decision for ourselves, and glory in that freedom, which incidentally, is the only way to formulate the type of answer that Jehovah requests of us.

A Matter of Perspective

We need to keep in mind that the “truth” we possess right now is miniscule in comparison to everything that can be learned. Look at it this way:

If, in the 1600's, we would have walked across the room, flicked a switch on the wall and a bright light suddenly appeared in the ceiling, we would have probably been hung for witchcraft.

Or, to use another example, picture two of the most intelligent men of their age, Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, trying to understand and fix one of today's computers when it was broken down.

When we look into the past and compare our knowledge now with what they had then, we appear to be light years ahead of them. That makes us feel good and flatters our egos. But in the process we tend to forget that there is far more yet to learn; many more “leaves” to discover on our “truths”.

We could say that we are like a sand flea on the beach in Alaska. Every evening at dusk they migrate down to the water line and every dawn go right back up to the vegetation line to sleep during the day. All we are is like the one who decided to go a little farther, climbed the 15 foot bank above the shore and looked out at the magnificent view that no other sand flea in history ever saw.

He would be quite proud of himself, wouldn't he? He may even wish to lord it over his fellows and claim to have all knowledge. But what he doesn't realize is that a few miles further inland, there is a mountain that goes up another 20,305 feet. That rather dwarfs his measly 15 feet, doesn't it? How are we any different?

How foolish we are to allow any of our "truths" to become "relative truths believed absolutely"!

5

A Compassionate, Yet Ferocious, Christian Rebuke

by Kent in

jw
friends

dear users of jehovahs-witness.com,.

kent has been to the fabulous website "betty bowers is a better christian than you.

" in perusing the joyous insight and delicate turn of phrase of america's best christian, mrs. betty bowers, kent has come to the sad realization that, while no one could ever be as good a christian as mrs. bowers, kent is verily jesus on the cross compared to you, darlings.

LoneWolf

ROTFLOL --- Thanks Kent! That made my day!

She mentions her email address and I've always loved throwing rocks at hornet's nests, so naturally I hauled off and flung the one below:

------------------------------------------------------------------
(Quote)
I've seen some dimwits in my day, but you take the cake. Do you realize that heaven wouldn't be heavenly if you were there?

"As a gold nose ring in the snout of a pig, so is a woman that is pretty but that is turning away from sensibleness." Proverbs 11:22

Shut up and sit down.

LoneWolf
(Unquote)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's see if that gets a rise out of her. Har-de-har-har!

29

draft letter - editorial comments?

by wasasister in

jw
friends

the following is the first-draft of a letter i would like to send to the society.

any and all suggestions would be appreciated.

(don't worry, i've developed a thick-skin.

LoneWolf

Howdy, Wasasister!

Heck, why don't we all sign it? We could send you emails authorizing you to type in our names at the bottom. The more the merrier.

LoneWolf

1

Doin' a little research.

by LoneWolf in

jw
friends

could anyone give me a little background and/or personality analysis on the wtbts writer ciro aulicino?

he interests me.

LoneWolf

Could anyone give me a little background and/or personality analysis on the WTBTS writer Ciro Aulicino? He interests me.

31

night you will be disfellow or reproved should u?.

by jazz in

jw
friends

go to the hall and face the music or stay home and watch t.v this thought went through my head when an elder asked a sister if her husband was to embarrased to sit in the hall when they made the announcement what do you think?

LoneWolf

Wal, wal! Brings back fond memories. I went. Kept my head up and kept a sardonic smile on my face the whole time. Took my sweet time about leaving afterwards too.

Of course at the last committee meeting we were all told to keep everything hush-hush. Naturally, I went around and told everyone everything BEFORE it was announced.

This was objected to, but I explained that when they DFed me, they removed themselves from having any form of authority over me. They could think of no retort. I liked their red faces.

Ditto when I commented that I certainly had no reason to be ashamed of anything I did and was wondering if they were embarrassed over their own conduct and could that be the reason for their desire for secrecy?

Thirteen years later, I still attend meetings with my family occasionally. At first, a few numbskulls challenged me, but I ate enough of them enough times that they just shut up and get the hell out of the road now. My wife and kids are treated well, and even some of the elder's kids are allowed to come over and play with mine at times.

Numerous times I've been asked if I would like to come back in. My answer is always the same. "Sure. Just as soon as we discuss the circumstances of my disfellowshipping."

"We can't do that," they answer.

"You will." Personally, I'm enjoying the situation.

LoneWolf

137

Freedom of Thought and JW Opposers

by dunsscot in

jw
friends

does freedom of thought really obtain in this forum?

are those who have left god's organization and jehovah god himself actually now more open-minded and unbiased?

if those who espouse atheistic thoughts or those who believe every vile utterance spoken against jehovah's people think they are now speaking from some olympian perspective, i beg to differ.

LoneWolf

Hello, dunsscot,

I've been following this thread with interest and figured to add my two cents. Your original questions were good and the sentiment appreciated, though I realize that others may not agree. That is their privilege.

IMHO the mind sets of those who have left the Organization follow, as a general rule, the same patterns of the way they were before they left. Those who had closed minds before are still closed now, but in other matters. Those who were open to new thought are still open to new thought. Those who were sloppy, concise, methodical, etc., etc., are still that way.

I imagine that some will challenge me on this, so keep in mind that I am NOT referring to their knowledge, as the vast majority of us have learned a great deal. What I AM referring to is the way they process that knowledge. As you know, human nature and habits are hard to change.

I must agree with AF though. Your big words may sound good to a few, but as to practicality, the word "useless" comes to mind. They do a far better job of obfuscating your meanings than the clarifying of them.

I'm offering the following in a good faith effort to add to the questions under discussion. This is my own concept and is not meant to be definitive.

It was attached to a letter written about a month ago to one of the Society's trouble-shooters who moved into our congregation along with four others to (apparently) keep an eye on whatever mischief I'm up to this time. (At least I take pleasure in the supposition!! Hehehehe!!!!)

“WHAT IS TRUTH?”

To my readers: This article is not for the purpose of “instructing” you in anything, but simply submitted in the hope that you can use some of these concepts or (especially desired) add to them. My thought is that we all use up too much time and effort fighting over our respective “truths” and completely overlook the marvelous opportunity to use other’s insights to advance the body of human knowledge beyond where it is now.

Pontius Pilate’s question to Jesus, “What is truth?” (John 18:38) is as apropos now as it was then. Billions of people have pondered that question down over the milleniums.

Ever since mankind has come into existence they have been gaining in knowledge. It was slow at first and gradually picked up speed until, in the past two centuries, it has literally exploded. That knowledge has turned much, if not most, of our ancestor's knowledge on its head.

This steady advance in knowledge is normal, natural, and prophesied. It was mentioned numerous times in the Bible. 1 Corinthians 13: 9-12 is a good example, while 1 Peter 1: 11, 12 enlarges on it to the extent that even the angels themselves were looking forward to additional knowledge. Ezekiel's vision as recorded in Ezekiel 47: 1-6 is especially enlightening inasmuch as most authorities understand that the "water" spoken of here is a reference to knowledge and how it increases down through the centuries.

Due to this factor, then, we function on the premise that everything is subject to examination and nothing and no one is too sacred to escape that examination.

The Three Kinds of Truth

A learned friend of mind, a professor of ethics in an eastern university, divided truth into these three categories:

1. Absolute Truth --- That truth which corresponds to absolute reality, and is usually known only to our heavenly creator and to those whom he decides to give it. The term "absolute reality" refers to the totality of knowledge that exists on any given subject as viewed through His eyes.

2. Relative Truth --- The progress that we imperfect humans make toward gaining "Absolute Truth", but never quite reach in spite of our best efforts. There is always more to learn.

3. Relative Truth Believed Absolutely --- A "Relative Truth" that we have gained such confidence in that we refuse to consider any further evidence concerning it.”

I find this concept fascinating in that it is a way to structure knowledge and emphasize to all regardless of our education or intelligence, that there is a whole world of “truth” out there that is as yet untouched. To those who understand it, it tends to reduce conflict and encourage the sharing of viewpoints without ego interfering with our helping one another to advance. It is a way to sharpen one another’s “face”, as the scripture says. (Prov. 27:17) It’s a whole new frontier where everyone can explore and be thrilled by their part in it.

It also clearly depicts a danger that we are all prone to make.

Expanded Thinking

We might view it in this manner:

Truth is much like an artichoke. It has many leaves and each leaf has a small amount of nutrient under it. Most people will pull off a few leaves, be satisfied with what they’ve found, and never think that it would be advantageous to pull off a few more to see what is under them too.

To illustrate: Most of us know that 1+1=2. It becomes to many an ‘absolute truth believed absolutely’ that they ‘know’ and won’t question. However, is it always?

What if we are dealing in the binary base where the only numbers used are “0” and “1”? Then it isn’t 2, it’s 10. At one time, such a concept would have been considered a silly mind game, but now that principle is the very heart of the computer world. They wouldn’t work without it. Who would have believed a century ago that the binary base would come to have such importance in the world now?

Or what if we are in the world of biology? There 1+1 can equal 2, or 200, or 2,000, or 2,000,000. It all depends upon how long the 1 has been with the other 1. Look at the rabbits in Australia and all of the environmental damage they’ve caused.

Please note that neither of these “expanded” concepts contradicts the original. They merely add to the standard body of “Truth”.

Another example of the different layers of truth would be a riddle I’ll bet you’ve heard. It’s about a bear hunter and goes like this:

The hunter woke up in the morning, ate breakfast, grabbed his rifle and left camp looking for bears. After walking one mile due south, he spotted a bear to the east. Heading due east, he caught up to the bear and shot and killed it at a point exactly one mile from where he first saw it. After skinning it out, he packed the hide exactly one mile due north, which brought him back to his camp, only to discover that another bear had raided the camp.

Now, what was the color of the bear that raided the camp?

Most people will say that the problem is impossible in the first place, as if one were to go one mile south, one mile east, and one mile north, he won’t be back at his camp. He’ll still be one mile east of camp.

Others, though, will feel good about themselves as they’ve recognized that the clues are in the directions. They can see that if the camp was set up exactly on the North Pole, you would end up right back where you started. The eastern leg would be merely an arc going around the pole. From there the answer is obvious. The bear was white.

However, we can take this one step further. There is an infinity of other places upon the earth where we can follow the same directions and still get back to the same place. Can you tell me the general locale where they exist, and what the route will look like?

It is this “expanded thinking” that can be extremely valuable. It is from there that we gain new knowledge and add to our ‘”relative truths”. Just like wandering through an unexplored wilderness, one never knows what will be discovered.

Identifying Those “Leaves”

One way to discover new knowledge is to search for commonalties or “patterns” in things that are seemingly unrelated.

An excellent example of one would be the experience of Dmitri I. Mendeleev and the way he came to formulate his Periodic Table of Elements. He noticed that some of the various elements had similar qualities, and that they appeared on a predictable basis in relationship to their atomic weight. (For further information, please check him out in the encyclopedia.)

But let’s look an example in another subject. The need for love, peace, kindness, honesty, integrity, and a host of other qualities are yearned for by people of all races, languages, and eras. The laws as set forth by Genghis Khan reflect an astonishingly similar value system as that of the laws given to Israel, even though the man was neither Christian or Jewish nor familiar with either. That these same feelings are found in all peoples is de facto evidence that this is the way that Jehovah designed us, as well as a witness to His qualities.

I would say in regard to the ‘heavenly court case’ that is going on right now between Jehovah and Satan, that a good attorney could make a beautiful ‘closing argument’ on the basis of that one commonality alone. Satan keeps maintaining that all humans prefer his ways of doing things, but when humans strive to get as close to Jehovah’s ways as possible even when they are unaware of them, it makes Satan look like a fool.

It has been said that much can be told about an artist by examining his works. If even the stones can bear a witness (Luke 19:40), how much more can a living thing? This is why I have always laughed at the concept of removing all windows from Kingdom Halls, ostensibly for the reason that the young will be less distracted from the proceedings under way. If the truth was known, the average tree can give a better witness to Jehovah’s qualities than the average elder. One just has to know how to “read” the language.

Of course, both are valuable, each in its own unique way. They compliment each other.

Another Valuable Resource

There are those who frown on reading or dealing with contrary thought. Those who do, appear to have forgotten a few things. In 1 Cor. 9:19-20, Paul speaks of how he strove to become different things to different people in order that “ . . . I may become a sharer of it (the good news) with others.” To do that means becoming familiar with what and how they believe. At times it is necessary to know their beliefs even better than they do.

Of course, that by no means indicates that we should become exactly what they are, even as the passage points out more than once. Rather, he’s saying that it is necessary to know their thought processes. In a very real way it is like learning another language, it’s just that the two languages happen to use the same words.

Then too, we might just ask ourselves these questions: Is truth weaker than falsehood? If not, then why are we afraid?

Here are some other advantages to knowing contrary thought:

a. Contrary thought provides the questions that need answered.

b. Most advances spring from unusual, independent, or heretical thinking. Even if an idea is totally crazy, it may trigger a good one in someone else’s mind.

c. In looking over our work, we can contrast it with the old and see the advantages for ourselves.

d. So that we will have the tools and freedom necessary to make a decision for ourselves, and glory in that freedom, which incidentally, is the only way to formulate the type of answer that Jehovah requests of us.

A Matter of Perspective

We need to keep in mind that the “truth” we possess right now is miniscule in comparison to everything that can be learned. Look at it this way:

If, in the 1600's, we would have walked across the room, flicked a switch on the wall and a bright light suddenly appeared in the ceiling, we would have probably been hung for witchcraft.

Or, to use another example, picture two of the most intelligent men of their age, Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, trying to understand and fix one of today's computers when it was broken down.

When we look into the past and compare our knowledge now with what they had then, we appear to be light years ahead of them. That makes us feel good and flatters our egos. But in the process we tend to forget that there is far more yet to learn; many more “leaves” to discover on our “truths”.

We could say that we are like a sand flea on the beach in Alaska. Every evening at dusk they migrate down to the water line and every dawn go right back up to the vegetation line to sleep during the day. All we are is like the one who decided to go a little farther, climbed the 15 foot bank above the shore and looked out at the magnificent view that no other sand flea in history ever saw.

He would be quite proud of himself, wouldn't he? He may even wish to lord it over his fellows and claim to have all knowledge. But what he doesn't realize is that a few miles further inland, there is a mountain that goes up another 20,305 feet. That rather dwarfs his measly 15 feet, doesn't it? How are we any different?

How foolish we are to allow any of our "truths" to become "relative truths believed absolutely"!

Dunsscot, I found it amusing that in the telephone call I received from him a few days later, one that lasted a good 45 minutes (even though I've been disfellowshipped for more than 12 years now for the crime of thinking without permission) he made no reference at all to anything I brought up in this article.

The one major difference we have is I strongly believe that while many of the GB and lower ranks may have/had good heart conditions, the Holy Spirit has never, is not now, and will never (at least in this system of things) "inspire", "aide", or _____ (insert any other euphemism) any man in any organization here in these last days. I say that for some very profound reasons.

That they claim such is just like your use of big words, or some people's use of alcohol. It imparts a false courage and sense of security in the user, while turning others off.

On average, though, thanks for the thread. I enjoyed it.

LoneWolf
Alias: Tom Howell

5

CRUMBLING WALLS OF THE WATCHTOWER

by Kent in

jw
friends

i found it on this webpage:.

http://www.theawaregroup.com/tab%20articles/wtchupdate.htm.

crumbling walls of the watchtower.

LoneWolf

Kent ---

I stumbled across this about 6 months ago. Apparently this is both very real and very sensitive to the Society. Did some posting on it then on the old H2O site. As you may or may not know, I've made no secret of who I am, and still don't.

Sense then 4 very high-octane elders moved into this congregation (coincidence?) including one who is a trouble-shooter and very high up there. I had a "secret" talk with one of them and while nothing overt was said, the scripture about "grabbing hold of the ears of a dog" (Prov. 26:17) was brought up. When I asked how that applied, the subject was changed.

I've been digging quite a bit on this, but don't have all the answers yet. Needless to say, there is a great deal I'm not saying at this time. Let's just say that there's a lot more to this than smoke.

This is one reason I haven't posted much lately. Been too busy (and fascinated) by these developments. Feel free to email me.

LoneWolf
Alias: Tom Howell