botchtower society -- "Happy are the deep thinkers, for they shall wield big shovels!" (Zedikiah 3:9)
LoneWolf
JoinedPosts by LoneWolf
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38
The Father of the Lie
by sabastious ini don't know about the rest of the world, but from where i stand i keep hearing the same defeated language from many different people.
the non believers focus on our insignificances and the believers await their paradise, whatever flavor that might be, after a tearing down rather than a building up, of course.. .
the ones that wish to encourage are minimized as blind optimists and often are regarded as engaging in a fools errand.
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38
The Father of the Lie
by sabastious ini don't know about the rest of the world, but from where i stand i keep hearing the same defeated language from many different people.
the non believers focus on our insignificances and the believers await their paradise, whatever flavor that might be, after a tearing down rather than a building up, of course.. .
the ones that wish to encourage are minimized as blind optimists and often are regarded as engaging in a fools errand.
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LoneWolf
Glad to see you too, Farkel!
Do you still play the pie-an-er?
Tom
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I think I'm in trouble.
by LoneWolf inhi, peeplezs!.
my little freckle-faced gal sent this to me this mawnin'.
how to start a fight.
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LoneWolf
Hi, Peeplezs!
My little freckle-faced gal sent this to me this mawnin'. I think I'm in trouble.
Tom
HOW TO START A FIGHT
One year, I decided to buy my mother-in-law a cemetery plot as a Christmas gift... The next year, I didn't buy her a gift. When she asked me why, I replied, "Well, you still haven't used the gift I bought you last year!" And that's how the fight started.....I took my wife to a restaurant. The waiter, for some reason, took my order first. "I'll have the rump steak, rare, please." He said, "Aren't you worried about the mad cow?" "Nah, she can order for herself." And that's when the fight started.....
My wife and I were sitting at a table at her high school reunion, and she kept staring at a drunken man swigging his drink as he sat alone at a nearby table. I asked her, "Do you know him?" "Yes", she sighed, "He's my old boyfriend. I understand he took to drinking right after we split up those many years ago, and I hear he hasn't been sober since." "My God!" I said, "Who would think a person could go on celebrating that long?" And then the fight started...
When our lawn mower broke and wouldn't run, my wife kept hinting to me that I should get it fixed. But, somehow I always had something else to take care of first, the shed, the boat, making beer.. something always more important to me. Finally she thought of a clever way to make her point. When I arrived home one day, I found her seated in the tall grass, busily snipping away with a tiny pair of sewing scissors. I watched silently for a short time and then went into the house. I was gone only a minute. When I came out again I handed her a toothbrush and said, "When you finish cutting the grass, you might as well sweep the driveway." The doctors say I will walk again, but I will always have a limp.
My wife sat down next to me as I was flipping channels. She asked, "What's on TV?" I said, "Dust." And that's how the fight started...
My wife was hinting about what she wanted for our upcoming anniversary. She said, "I want something shiny that goes from 0 to 150 in about 3 seconds." I bought her a bathroom scale And that's how the fight started......After retiring, I went to the Social Security office to apply for Social Security. The woman behind the counter asked me for my driver's License to verify my age. I looked in my pockets and realized I had left my wallet at home. I told the woman that I was very sorry, but I would have to go home and come back later. The woman said, "Unbutton your shirt". So I opened my shirt revealing my curly silver hair. She said, "That silver hair on your chest is proof enough for me" and she processed my Social Security application. When I got home, I excitedly told my wife about my experience at the Social Security office. She said, 'You should have dropped your pants. You might have gotten disability too.' And then the fight started...
I rear-ended a car this morning...the start of a REALLY bad day! The driver got out of the other car, and he was a DWARF!! He looked up at me and said 'I am NOT Happy!' So I said, 'Well, which one ARE you then?' That's how the fight started.
Start every day off with a smile and get it over with.
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38
The Father of the Lie
by sabastious ini don't know about the rest of the world, but from where i stand i keep hearing the same defeated language from many different people.
the non believers focus on our insignificances and the believers await their paradise, whatever flavor that might be, after a tearing down rather than a building up, of course.. .
the ones that wish to encourage are minimized as blind optimists and often are regarded as engaging in a fools errand.
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LoneWolf
LOL, Sabastious!
I must agree with most of what you write. The few places that I don't is not because of your logic, but because I feel that I have a few factors that may throw a different light on certain points, and that may change your outlook on them too. (Maybe. }
I too have been condemned for being a blind optimist (among a few hundred other things) and surrounded by negativity, but the biggest reason by far for that condemnation is that I insist on thinking for myself. Nothing that I know of will make more people mad at you quicker than thinking for yourself! They become life-long enemies.
But - I cheerfully flaunted their disapproval and did it anyway. I figured that under all the myriad layers of lies and assorted bull$hit there had to be a layer of truth somewhere, so I kept digging until I found something that made sense - logically. It helped a lot indeed to be LoneWolf, for I didn't count on or expect any approval or encouragement from any source, and sure enough, I didn't get any.
But whether we agree on anything or not, I appreciate the way your brain works. You keep digging in a rational manner in an effort to find understanding. Most people only want to know what they are supposed to believe and when told, swallow it hook, line, and sinker.
To me, one of the greatest joys is a healthy frolic in the cerebral playground. It's fun to take that old brain out and let it flap in the breeze for a while and see what sort of lint it picks up. Sometimes the results will set a person right back on their heels in astonishment. You appear to be of a similar nature.
And that brings me to something else. I'm looking for some special people. I don't want them to agree with me unless they have to. I want them to be able to look at some of my findings and tear them apart and point out the errors in fact and/or logic, for that is the only way I can continue to progress. Their observations and questions will point out those areas that need work. I understand the engineering world has a special term for such people: Logic Engineers.
Right now I am about half way through posting a series of pieces entitled "Answer to DTRT". Those and the forerunning article "The little piss-ant panty-waist "god' " (meaning Satan) is dealing with the creation account in Genesis and shortly thereafter. DTRT is a brilliant military scientist who is willing to tackle just about any subject and his questions are the very type of things I'm looking for.
If you or anyone else wishes to jump in and join the fun, you would be as welcome as the flowers of Spring!
Tom
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LoneWolf
Violia -- "Island Woman was outed several years ago." Anyone know how I could contact her? We wrote a few emails to each other some years ago, and I would like to send my greetings and ask how she is doing. I still have her old email address, but it's not working now. You can tell her that mine is still the same though.
As to fearing that I would be found out, no. In fact, shortly after I got on the board I got mad at the Totchwower because of all the fear that they instilled in people, so I wrote a real nasty piece and posted it. Then I posted my name, address, and telephone number and asked them just what the hell they thought they were going to do about it. Quite a few others posting, strongly advised that I take the personal information down, but that would have spoiled all the fun. (Grin)
Shortly after that some hi-octane elders moved into the congregation and we sparred a bit - and I dutifully posted all details here on the board. Fairly quickly one of them came to me and asked that I not include his name in those postings, so that pretty well proves that the board was being monitored.
Someone else mentioned the sense of freedom something like this gives one. Amen to that! It's priceless!
Tom
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Answer to DTRT - Part 2
by LoneWolf insection 1: is there no other possibility?
a. in the scenario above,(described in "the little piss-ant panty-waist 'god'.
section 2: the implications of such a scenario:.
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LoneWolf
Answer to DTRT
Part 2
Again, some words of explanation and a warning: This is the second of four parts answering DTRT's questions that were attaching to the bottom of "Satan's Achilles' Heel" aka "The little piss-ant panty-waist 'god' " (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/216795/1/Satan-The-little-piss-ant-panty-waist-god ). If you haven't read that first part, you may need to go back and review it in order to have some continuity.
The first of the answer's four parts is located here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/217242/1/Answer-to-DTRT-Part-1
As to the warning: As mentioned before, some people find this subject disturbing, because we are tromping all over forbidden territory. This especially applies to Parts 2 through 4.
Also to my surprise later, I forgot to needle the Totchwower spies in Part 1. I guess that's a sign of old age, eh, what? LOL! They are so craven whenever the subject of Satan and the demons come up, that they've been frantically digging their rabbit hole deeper so they can hide better. In fact, I'm strongly advising them to either quit digging or buy themselves some asbestos pants, 'cause they must be getting fairly close to hell by this time.
Once again I will make this special request of them: Please, please, please! Announce to the world that the only way I could write the following words is by Satan helping me! (Matt. 12:24-27) I would consider it a great honor! Har, har!!
Hi, DTRT!
Part 1 ended with these words:
"So it appears that this is one of the few times that most of the churches of Christendom are correct. It appears that the angels (and the demons before the flood) had the technical knowledge to manufacture a body and inhabit it. Most of the pagan faiths have a similar belief."
That's all well and good, but it's not hard to find instances when everybody believed something that was false. Therefore, the wise thing to do is to come at it from different angles to see if the same conclusion is reached. So here are a couple more angles, involving both the technology that would be needed for them to manufacture such bodies, and the likelihood of them having such knowledge.
MATING WITH HUMANS? HOW?
Let's appeal to your own training, DTRT. You are an engineer and much more. You use technical knowledge every day. You are constantly being asked to go and build something, somewhere. When you are given such an assignment, isn't the FIRST order of business that of making sure you have the knowledge and skills to do the job?
Now put yourself in the position of the overseeing angel when he rebelled and became Satan., as this section of The Outline describes:
VI - If Jehovah is the creator, why would he create such things as disease organisms, parasites, and other vermin that apparently have no ecological function other than to make the rest of creation miserable?
Section 1: Is there no other possibility? Consider this:
A. In the scenario above, (Described in "The little piss-ant panty-waist 'god'.) Satan would be using the earth for recreation and it would be under his control entirely. He could do what he wanted. So what would he want?
1. Isaiah 14:12-14 states that Satan wanted to become like God. If so, what is God like?
2. Most common description is "Creator"
B. What was Satan's pre-fall position?
1. He was already the overseer and/or caretaker of the earth and everything on it, which was an extremely high position.
2. According to scripture, he was glorious and had a great deal of authority on top of that.
3. There wasn't much left for him to want - except to create, and to be worshipped for it.
C. Would he have the technological knowledge to create?
1. Compare it to our experience as humans. If we hired a man to supervise a construction project, he would need knowledge of all phases of construction. Likewise, if we are designing a new form of communication, any man hired to oversee it would need a thorough knowledge of electronics.
2. Satan was the appointed overseer of the earth before his fall. Therefore, he should have an excellent knowledge of how it was done.
3. The main thing distinguishing this planet from all others (as far as we know) is the myriad life forms upon it. ALL of those life forms are formed using DNA.
4. Ergo: It is reasonable to think that Satan would have a working knowledge of DNAStatus: Written. Needs enlarged.
Section 2: The implications of such a scenario:
A. His opportunity:
1. He would now have the skill to manipulate DNA
2. He also has the opportunity and location to do so.
3. Due to his nefarious actions, he would feel he could do anything he wanted with impunity.
B. Broader implications
1. The "higher critics" have been scoffing at the Biblical account of Genesis for 100's of years now.
2. The above scenario not only brings such things into the realm of possibility, but even of probability, when considering that these fallen angels were using the earth as a recreational resource.
3. Psychologically speaking, for someone with that skill and opportunity, it would be surprising if they didn't play with DNA.
Status: Written. Needs enlarged.
Section 3: Specific scenarios:
A. The fallen angels materializing bodies and having children with the "daughters of men".
1. The fallen angels, with their knowledge of DNA, should be able to create a body and energize it using their own life force, then discard it when desired, much like an old suit of clothes..
2. Manipulating the genes in an embryo would be a simple process, considering that we do that now (usually with disastrous results) using drugs. With their knowledge they could "tweak" those genes to get whatever results they wanted, height, strength, whatever. We humans are trying to do that now.
3. This brings the "mighty men of old" (the giants or Nephilim) into the realm of possibility, if not probability.
4. These modified hybrids would be show pieces, and relatively few would be made. To find an archeological record of one would be fortunate indeed.
5. These "show pieces" could then be used in much the same manner that we today use "virtual people" in video games.
B. It would be a relatively simple thing (man nearly has the capability now) to take the DNA for a narwhale tusk and put it in a horse, thereby creating a unicorn. Or replacing the front half of a goat with the trunk and body of a man, thereby creating a satyr. Or . . . etc., etc.
1. Maybe the ancient pagan accounts aren't as silly as they sound.
2. By exercising such power and influence the fallen angels would have the humans of that day cowed and in awe. How easily our ancestors could be manipulated using such powers and spectacles!
3. More importantly, such manipulation would be absolutely necessary in order to distract mankind from knowing about and/or attempting to provide the answer to the question Satan raised in Eden, or for that matter, even knowing that there was a question for them to answer.
4. Otherwise, Satan dies.
Status: Written. Needs enlarged.
Section 4: One more scenario:
A. Would Satan have been satisfied to simply modify or rearrange the DNA of the existing creations? Or would his ego demand that he create entirely new ones?
1. If he created new ones, he would have a problem. The DNA itself would be doable, but how would he activate it? Without activation, it would simply sit there like a light bulb with no electricity running through it.
2. He would need to find some way to activate it, somewhere to find the activation force, and the method used would be immaterial.
B. The curious passage at Lev. 17:11 about the life force being in the blood.
1. In the event that this is literal and blood is where the life force of an organism resides and is then distributed to the rest of the body, this could be a source Satan could use.
2. If so, and he used it, then we could expect that there would be some organisms that could not reproduce without stealing blood (and part of the accompanying life force) from something else. Are there?
C. Yes. Mosquitoes, fleas, lice, bedbugs, and leaches are only a few.
1. Note that nearly all organisms, except those that need an infusion of blood to reproduce, have an obvious nitch or purpose in the environment.
2. However, the only identifiable "purpose" of the blood-suckers is to make the rest of creation miserable.
3. Ergo: They don't "fit" in the environment like everything else does. They have all the appearances of something foreign that has been inserted into a finely tuned arrangement.
D. Also, most disease organisms live in the blood.
1. To spread, those who cannot spread through the air need a vector of some sort.
2. Note the ideal suitability of the blood suckers for that purpose, even while having no other known purpose for existing.
E. We now have a complete system living off another, while providing no benefit to anyone. The two systems are not compatible, and will kill the other if given the chance.
F. Again, note the contrast: Jehovah creates things to be useful and cares for his creations, but Satan feels no compunction about destroying other creations in order to guarantee the continued existence of his own inventions - ones that have no practical purpose other than fanning his ego. This goes back to the personalities involved.
The above scenario is one that is entirely possible within the Biblical record. To say that Jehovah created every physical thing may not be accurate. Just as he did not create Satan in the form that he is, but rather Satan made himself what he is, so also Jehovah would not be responsible for the things Satan made. Satan has to foot that responsibility himself.
(End of this section of the outline.)
DTRT, one should quite happily admit that the above suggested solutions strain credibility - and then some. However, there are three questions that we all need to consider:
- Where are the flaws, technically and logically speaking?
- Inasmuch as we are dealing with beings who have far more intelligence than we do, shouldn't we EXPECT any discoveries to be of an incredulous nature?
- Dang! This is fun, ain't it? LOL!
ARE SATAN AND HIS BUDDIES DEMONS?
No, we are unaware of any place where the actual words "Satan and his buddies are demons" (or similar) are used in the Bible. However, there are other passages where it is very difficult to come to any other conclusion. One is Matthew 12:24-27:
"At hearing this, the Pharisees said: 'This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.'
"Knowing their thoughts, he said to them: 'Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then will his kingdom stand? Moreover, if I expel the demons by means of Beelzebub, by means of whom do your sons expel them? . . ."
Note that approximately the same words are used in Mark 3:22-26 and Luke 11:15-20, and other passages tend to strengthen it. It appears that Satan and Beelzebub are one and the same and Beelzebub is one name for Satan that is accepted in many cultures.
To approach it from a different angle, though, the psychology of the situation is just as big a witness. You've undoubtedly met enough crooks in your life to recognize the criminal profile. They will put on a façade of decency, consideration, and fellow feeling - until they have you trusting them. Only then will their true nature come out, and you get shafted.
Meanwhile they will still do everything possible to maintain the façade for everyone else and make it look like you brought the problems upon yourself. In this manner they can escape retribution for their criminal acts. It would stand to reason that we would find this in Satan's case too.
If he can't convince us that he doesn't exist and is nothing but some figment of a superstitious imagination, then he will want to glorify himself beyond what he actually deserves. He will also soften his image to as many as he can and/or convince them that he is scary and that it's not healthy to trifle with him. Is this the case with Satan? Yes. Here are some examples:
"He doesn't exist:" The scientific community - the ones most likely to use critical and objective thinking - are reduced to being non-factors due to their thinking that they are "above superstition." They won't examine the subject at all.
"Glorifying himself:" In the doctrine of hell-fire, it is taught that Satan is the ruler of Hell, even though the Bible doesn't back that. If he is the ruler of Hell and Jehovah is the ruler of Heaven, that puts them on an equal footing and it legitimizes his existence. According to him, they are in cahoots, and divvy up the people of the world between them. According to his propaganda, then, he is like, or equal to God. (Read Isaiah 14:12-14 again.) Many other methods are used to the same end.
"Softening his image yet instilling fear at the same time:" Ever note how all things "demonic" are trivialized and "cutzied" up? Ghosts, goblins, witches, etc., etc. are just make-believe fun. Scary movies are viewed as normal and healthy entertainment. Halloween is celebrated and treated as harmless fun, even while ignoring the fact that part of the reason for its existence is to appease the "dark forces". These activities are held forth as harmless fun, but they instill the very superstition and yes, fear, that is laughed at as being unnecessary. By starting this indoctrination when we are children, few of us outgrow that gut-level sense of unease and fear, and fewer still will challenge Satan by bucking the superstitions that are left behind as psychological residue.
By using this model of the criminal mind when examining the evidence presented to us about Satan, his various "faces" or personalities start to make sense. That he tries to make himself look benevolent at times agrees with scripture. "And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light." (2 Cor. 11:14) If this is the case, we can expect that there will be confusion as to who (and what) he is.
Plus we can compare it to the real world. How many times have we heard of some hideous crime like the one in California where an idiot kept a young girl as a sex slave for 18 years, and when it finally came out all the neighbors were shocked. "But he was such a nice guy! I can't believe it!" "But the man I know couldn't possibly do that! You must have him confused with someone else!" We can expect Satan to be just as two-faced, and that will cause confusion over his identity.
That, in turn, complicates our job of making a knowledgeable choice as to whom we prefer, Jehovah or Satan.
Probably the main thing influencing this course of study, though, is that this one holds forth hope, while all other assumptions never get us off square one. The death of the human race is the common eventuality in all the rest of them.
"SONS OF GOD" CAN REFER TO BOTH ANGELS AND MANKIND
Compare Genesis 6:2, 3 with Luke 3:38 to see what this means. The easiest way to reconcile it is to remember that the word "father", roughly translated, means "life giver". In that sense, Jehovah would be the "father" of everything alive, spiritual and physical.
You know, that stimulates a thought. If Jehovah is the "Life Giver" and one of his "sons" shows disrespect for the life he received as a free gift, then wouldn't it stand to reason that the gift should be returned? In addition, it would not be incumbent upon Jehovah to maintain that life any more than it would be incumbent upon you to maintain a Cadillac you gave someone as a gift, especially when they used it to skid logs or plow fields. They would still own the Cadillac, for you gave it to them. However, they would need to maintain and fuel it themselves.
This tends to reinforce the earlier conclusion that Satan and his demons had their "food supply" cut off. They would have to provide their own, for if Jehovah continued to provide the "fuel" necessary to continue their nefarious conduct, then he becomes an accomplice.
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A PERSONAL OBSERVATION
Judy feels that I may be placing myself (and others) in danger here, for if I am slandering Satan, he may wish to retaliate. I'm not concerned about myself.
If he is innocent, an innocent person wishes to clear his name. Killing me would merely reinforce the impression that I'm leaving, which would make such an action counterproductive. (Think about how Obama's refusal to release his birth certificate creates doubt as to his legitimacy as a presidential candidate.)
If he is guilty, he would indeed be pissed off due to my blowing his cover. However, he still has a problem. All I'm doing is providing my part of the answer that our heavenly father is asking from all of us in Proverbs 27:11; "Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me." Witness tampering is a very poor idea, for that in itself will destroy his case.
But she is right about it calling attention to others who would associate themselves with this activity. While I feel that this needs to be done, and will continue trying with all I have to try with, I cannot ask anyone else to do what I am doing, nor do I feel that it is necessary.
Each of us has different talents. I'm a bull-headed cuss who will confront whatever I feel needs confronting. That is useful, sometimes. At other times a softer touch is more productive. Therefore the only policy I feel is appropriate is that each individual should react (or not react) as their own heart tells them to, and that reaction should be one that leaves them with a free conscience.
In other words, I would be completely out of place to be telling people "You have to do this (or that)." Their hearts will tell them what they need to do and if they decide to do it, then it must be completely voluntary for it to have any value.
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There are a couple of additional things that should be covered, but we'd better save those for Part 3. Your question: "Are any of the Demon Possessed people that are referenced in the Bible, well adjusted people without problems?" is especially interesting.
Your observations as to whether or not our answer makes any sense would be greatly appreciated.
'Til then,
Tom
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Answer to DTRT - Part 1
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LoneWolf
Answer to DTRT
Part 1
Some words of explanation and a warning: This is the first of four parts answering DTRT’s questions that were attaching to the bottom of “Satan’s Achilles’ Heel” aka “The little piss-ant panty-waist ‘god’ “ (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/216795/1/Satan-The-little-piss-ant-panty-waist-god ). If you haven’t read that first part, you may need to go back and review it in order to have some continuity.
As to the warning: As mentioned before, some people find this subject disturbing, because we are tromping all over forbidden territory.
Hi, DTRT!
You said “You are most likely sittin' there with yer eyes crossed, question marks leak-
in' from yer ears an' uh thinkin' I'm a NUT! Please bare with me and I
will attempt to weave this into a complete concept.”
LOL! Far from it! You’re merely asking the types of questions that need to be asked! They are deeply appreciated!
Please keep in mind that none of this is written as a dissertation that others are expected to accept as gospel. Rather, it is meant more as a brain-storming session where anything goes, and the farther out we get the better. If we are dealing with entities that are far more intelligent than we are, any “stretching of our intellect” is entirely proper and a step in the right direction.
Being a “Bible Scholar” isn’t necessary either. If we are to hear such things “out of the mouth of babes” as Psalms 8:2 says we will, we don’t need to be experts, but merely people who have the courage to think and reason for ourselves. “Experts” tend to miss the forest because there are too many trees in the road anyway.
One more thing to keep in mind: We are not implying this is, or even that we are trying to find “THE” answer. There aren’t enough facts and figures for that. All we are trying to do is find “an” answer, i.e., a path through this maze that retains three things: a. Continuity; b. Logic, and; c. Hope.
Now let’s try to provide some tentative “answers” to your observations. They cover such a wide range of things though, that it may be necessary to use the shotgun approach on some of them. Also, let’s divvy it up into chunks in order to limit its length.
Please allow me to pose a question as to the nature of "Demon Food".
As to the nature of “demon food” itself, there is almost no evidence at all of what that could be. The proposal that they assimilate it by osmosis was meant as more of a joke than anything else, because there is no evidence one way or the other.
However, the hypothesis that they use it directly, like a light bulb uses electricity, was more of an “on the other hand” type of second thought. Nothing prevents us from borrowing the reasoning process that gives us knowledge about things we can’t see, like cosmic rays or radioactivity. We learn about them by the effects they have on us and/or other things.
The part that piques interest in this regard are the passages in the Bible about the “spirits in prison” to which Peter said Jesus preached (1 Peter 3:19), of how they are to be cast into “Tartarus” (the abyss of inactivity) (2 Peter 2:4), and finally destroyed altogether in Gehenna (aka – “Lake of Fire” – Revelation 20:7-10). There are beau coup questions about this whole concept, but the one that is fascinating in this setting is “How?” How do you imprison a spirit, especially if they are as depicted in the movies where they walk right through walls, squeeze through keyholes, and the like?
Sure, there could be some substance they are susceptible to, like Superman is affected by kryptonite, but let’s use the “profane” version of Occam’s Razor that is preferred by the man in the street: K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple, Stupid). Probably the simplest and best solution would be that the Life Force is channeled directly into whatever actions they desire, like electricity is channeled into a light bulb, which immediately creates light.
Then it becomes easier: They could be “imprisoned” by simply cutting down on their supply. Like the light bulb, the lower the supply of power, the dimmer it gets, until finally it can’t shine at all in spite of the fact that it is still physically intact. The final “Gehenna” step would be when the light bulb gets stomped on, for no matter how much juice you stick to it then, it won’t work.
If they are constructed in that manner, then the whole concept becomes simple and easily understood. As such, it is a model that can be used until something better comes along or we make some discovery that disproves it.
Did God create the angels prior to man?
To the best of our knowledge and understanding, yes.
In the King James, Genesis 6:4, "There were Giants in the Earth in those
days; and after that, when the Sons of God came in unto the Daughters of
Men, they bare children to them, the same became mighty men, which
were of old, men of renown." You will notice that "after that" is underlined
and this would indicate to me that the Giants (Strongs Concordance refers
to them as Nephilim, as does Gesenius' Hebrew/Chaldee Lexicon) were not
the result of the Sons of God gettin' it on and that they were already here.
BTW, to further proof that the Sons of God were Physical Beings and not
Spiritual, Genesis 6:2 and 6:3 indicate that the Sons of God and Man are
Flesh.
As to Genesis 6:3, where, speaking of man, it says that “he also is flesh”, good point. The way it is translated does indeed sound like God is saying that “man is flesh like we are.” It is reinforced by Genesis 1:26, “And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness . . .”
However, let’s not eliminate other possible meanings without examination.
For instance, there is another possible meaning that can’t be ignored. He was speaking of mankind and even as we do at times, we sometimes use similar terminology to indicate that there is an additional factor to consider here, such as “Also, don’t forget he is flesh,” meaning “After all, he is only human,” with an implied feeling of mercy or sympathy for mankind due to the predicament they find themselves in. His words just before that, “My spirit shall not always strive with man” tend to reinforce this second possibility, in that he recognizes that the only reason mankind is in the doghouse in the first place is that they are “only flesh", had been connived into wrongdoing by someone that they couldn’t hope to compete with, and are therefore deserving of mercy.
There is a similar possibility with the words “after that” in the timeline of the Nephilim.
It could be valuable to compare translations and see how they render both of these passages. For instance for Genesis 6:4, the New World Translation says: “The Nephilim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the true God continued to have relations with the daughters of men …”(Underlining ours.) If this translation is accurate it makes the question moot, for it is merely extending the time that the Nephilim existed. Many other translations phrase it similarly. Check out the comparative translations here: http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Gen&chapter=6&verse=4 (Click the “Parallel” tab.)
Also, be careful of assuming that the underlining means extra emphasis is being placed on the word. It may mean something else, for instance, Hebrew (and most other languages) can’t be translated directly into English because the sentence structures, etc., are different, so sometimes they will insert words in it that will clear up some fuzzy area so that it makes sense to English speakers. Most translations put such words in parentheses or brackets. We’re not sure how the King James does it.
However, let this pass now, as we don’t want you to think we are sidestepping the question. :)
The above explanations are inadequate in themselves. So let’s go back to Genesis 1:26 again. When he says, “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness. . .”, there are at least two ways that could be accomplished. The first would indeed be that God and the angels are flesh and we are like them.
Another, and more likely one, would be that we are similar in our mental attributes, as we can plan, use abstract logic, reason, etc., etc. just as Jehovah the God of Abraham and the angels do, but that the animals cannot. In that sense we would be alike in the same sense that a man and woman can look at each other after discovering that they have the same interests and say happily, “We are just alike!” (Then you hear wedding bells, rugrats show up and you suddenly have a family.)
However, there isn’t enough in these scriptures to come to a definitive conclusion on which way is meant. Therefore the wisest course could be to go on to other scriptures to see if they weigh in on the subject. Sure enough, the more of them one examines, the more the scales tip towards these second possibilities. For instance:
Ephesians 6:12 where it actually differentiates between the two; “because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but . . . against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.” If the “wicked spirit forces” are blood and flesh, then what’s the point of the first half of this scripture?
Then in a comparison between Exodus 33:20-23: “And he added: “you are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live. And Jehovah said further: “Here is a place with me, and you must station yourself upon the rock. And it has to occur that while my glory is passing by I must place you in a hole in the rock, and I must put my palm over you as a screen until I have passed by. After that I must take my palm away, and you will indeed see my back. But my face may not be seen.”
And 1 Timothy 6:16; “the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. . .” “Unapproachable light?” Like the center of galaxies, perhaps?
Some would argue that man could not live in instances like these because he is forbidden to see God and will be executed for insubordination if he does.
However, if we consider the obvious goodwill God had towards Moses in the Exodus passage, as well as his effort to get as close as possible to granting Moses’ wish, wouldn’t it stand to reason that flesh and blood simply cannot physically withstand such an environment? Think about it: We can’t look at the sun or even an arc light very long without ruining our eyes.
Furthermore, if God and the angels travel to and from the earth and are made of blood and flesh, how can they withstand the rigors of outer space? We know what will happen if an astronaut’s spacesuit gets a hole ripped in it. It ain’t pretty.
So it appears that this is one of the few times that most of the churches of Christendom are correct. It appears that the angels (and the demons before the flood) had the technical knowledge to manufacture a body and inhabit it. Most of the pagan faiths have a similar belief.
And that brings us to the next logical problem.
MATING WITH HUMANS? HOW?
Let’s save that for next week’s installment.
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21
Reached Out Only To Be Rejected
by Quendi inlast month i got word that a witness i had known had died suddenly.
i hadn't spoken to her since my disfellowshipping six years ago, but we had been good friends.
upon learning of her death, i wrote a letter of sympathy to her fleshly brother, also a witness, who had been a good friend of mine as well.
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LoneWolf
Hi, Quendi,
A couple of thoughts here. Having been disfellowshipped for approx. 25 years, yet living with and dealing with witnesses every day, I fully understand your feelings of rejection.
First is that they didn't send it back! I have had quite a few such overtures sent back without them being opened, and this is from my own daughters. That they didn't send it back means that they accepted it. It is probably stashed out of sight so that they won't get in trouble themselves for accepting communication from you, and that would mean your words mean a lot to them.
Secondly, remember the words about "casting your bread on many waters". Your good will is a silent witness to them that you are not the horrible, fearsome apostate the Society says you are, and raises a question in their hearts as to how much credibility should be given the Organization. If you demonstrate good cheer and happiness on the outside when you "officially" should be miserable, it becomes a powerful witness to those still in.
Think back about your own trip out of the faith. It was a lot of little things that gradually accumulated into a feeling that something was wrong, and that in turn grew until you realized a decision had to be made, was it not? Every time you do the decent thing, you add one little piece to the freeing of those you love.
In the meantime, don't be discouraged. Keep trying to do what is right, for that knowledge is a reward in itself.
Tom
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5
Fishin'
by LoneWolf inhi, peeplezs!.
something happened during the last few days that made me feel good, and knowing that you folks love nature like i do, i figure i ought to share it.. back in the 50's, georgia pacific corp. bought out the booth-kelly timberlands above us where we lived on mosby creek, the valley that runs due east out of cottage grove, oregon.
the purchase consisted of almost the entire mosby creek watershed.
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LoneWolf
LOL, Folks!
jamiebowers - That would be fun! I'd like to show you folks some of the wild territory here!
Not turtle hunting. We had turtles around here, but they were VERY hard to get anywhere close to.
Frogs are another story. I remember one time when I was around 10 that I was trying to catch some bullfrogs. I'd sneak up on them on something that floats, with a fishing pole dangling an unbaited hook. I wouldn't move the fishing pole, but would drift until the hook dangled in front of the frog and it would grab it like it was a fly. After a while they got smart and wouldn't go for it. Then I sneaked up behind one of them and caught it by the seat of the pants. The hook caught only a tiny piece of skin, but it was enough to catch it. I gently removed the hook and let it go.
Crawdads were another story too. We have big red ones in the fall, and my kids like to catch a mess of them and have a feast.
botchtowersociety - That's what makes it worth it the most, taking someone you love to see some of the things that have warmed your heart in the past. Thanks for the video!
Unshackled - That is beautiful country! It's also devil's club country. If you ever got into that, I'll bet you remember it! Strange thing about it is that the Northwest Indians used to use it to treat diabetes, believe it or not.
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5
Fishin'
by LoneWolf inhi, peeplezs!.
something happened during the last few days that made me feel good, and knowing that you folks love nature like i do, i figure i ought to share it.. back in the 50's, georgia pacific corp. bought out the booth-kelly timberlands above us where we lived on mosby creek, the valley that runs due east out of cottage grove, oregon.
the purchase consisted of almost the entire mosby creek watershed.
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LoneWolf
Hi, Peeplezs!
Something happened during the last few days that made me feel good, and knowing that you folks love nature like I do, I figure I ought to share it.
Back in the 50's, Georgia Pacific Corp. bought out the Booth-Kelly timberlands above us where we lived on Mosby Creek, the valley that runs due east out of Cottage Grove, Oregon. The purchase consisted of almost the entire Mosby Creek watershed. GP then built a railroad up the valley, and it went right through our land. (We boys hopped the train numerous times to go in town.) They then strip logged the entire valley. We detested GP because the beautiful clear water coming down Mosby Creek was badly polluted with mud and silt for quite a few summers, and we kids practically lived in that creek.
But GP finally finished their dastardly deed and moved out. Weyerhaeuser bought the land, replanted the valley and restricted access to it except for hunting season, when they opened the gates and allowed anyone who wanted to hunt, to do so. They are still doing that. I remember a couple of years that I wanted to get some elderberries, because my little freckle-faced gal Linda loves to make jelly out of them, and that stuff is delicious! Hunting season is when they are ripe, and they are everywhere. I must have come back with 10 gallons of them.
A couple of months ago I took my son Zeke and three grandkids up to the gate where some of our old stomping grounds were when we were kids. It's beautiful, and it's now a nice forest that is beginning to take on much of the characteristics of the way it used to be before GP messed the place up. I was walking through the forest and stumbled across the biggest patch of red huckleberries I've ever seen, and the berries were about twice normal size. Zeke and the grandkids were jumping off the bridge into the creek and exploring everything they could see, and one of them even stirred up a yellow hornets' nest and got nailed three times. Basically, I took them back about 60 years and showed them what our childhood was like. They loved it!
But now it's hunting season again, and my brother Doug took some of his kids way above the gate a couple of days ago. Then while they went hunting, he dropped down to the creek to do a little fishing. The creek isn't big that far up. A fella can wade it easily in most areas, and there are some places you can jump from rock to rock and not get your feet wet. Would you believe that he came home with a 29 inch trout weighing about 6 lbs.? They don't even stock the creek that far up!
Maybe there's still a few things right with the world.
Speaking of fishing, I remember when Doug and Jerry (our youngest brother) were about 6 and 7 years old and decided to go fishing down over the bank from the house on a cool, cloudy, rainy day. Needless to say, that's not the best time for fishing, but they persisted all day. They hadn't caught a thing until just before dark, and one of them pulled in a trout that was 5 7/8 in. long. It's not legal to keep any fish smaller than 6 inches.
You can imagine their chagrin! A whole day's worth of fishing only to catch one fish at the last minute and then find that it's 1/8 of an inch too short?? That's awful! Soooooo - they got their heads together and came up with a typical country boy solution. One boy got on one end of the fish and the other boy grabbed the other end. When they got home, that fish was 6 ¼ inches long!
Ah, yes. There's a solution to everything!
Tom