a couple friends of mine and i used to have some funny things relating to the wts that we would say.
ironically they are d/f now, but anyway.
if one of us were going to do something to embarass another, or do something stupid we would say "if you do that i'll go wbts on your ass!
A couple friends of mine and I used to have some funny things relating to the WTS that we would say. Ironically they are D/F now, but anyway.
If one of us were going to do something to embarass another, or do something stupid we would say "If you do that I'll go WBTS on your ass!" Meaning have nothing to do with them or it. Oh man, those were the days, I miss those guys.
Looking
i've always been taught that each disciple of christ has a scriptural obligation to preach, and to do so in imitation of jesus and his disciples.
they did this by house to house, in synagogues, and in the marketplaces.
this is one thing that has always kept me close to jehovah's witnesses.
Logical - Thanks for copying that information over here. Sorry that I didn't catch that topic before posting my own.
Any further discussion here is still definately welcome though.
Thanks to all,
Looking
(entire article).
questions from readers.
in view of jehovahs willingness to forgive sins by the merit of the ransom sacrifice, why is it necessary for christians to confess to the older men in the congregation?.
Anyone else hear talk #3 from the TMS for the week of 5/21. The information in it about no confession to humans being necessary directly contradicts the last two sentences of this article. The information for that talk was from the Reasoning book under "Confession". I almost laughed when I heard the title of the talk.
i've always been taught that each disciple of christ has a scriptural obligation to preach, and to do so in imitation of jesus and his disciples.
they did this by house to house, in synagogues, and in the marketplaces.
this is one thing that has always kept me close to jehovah's witnesses.
Gopher or Ozzie :
Could either of you please give me a couple examples of other evangelical groups with similar or greater growth numbers?
Thanks,
Looking
apostasy has been the devil's most effective means of fighting against the truth.
after all, time and time again the devil was able to lure the israelites away from the worship of jehovah and in to all sorts of idol worship and whatnot.
some anointed christians in the 1st century were also induced to become antichrists.
Uhhhh, ok. I guess I shouldn't have asked you for any biblical information. My bad...retard.
Looking
apostasy has been the devil's most effective means of fighting against the truth.
after all, time and time again the devil was able to lure the israelites away from the worship of jehovah and in to all sorts of idol worship and whatnot.
some anointed christians in the 1st century were also induced to become antichrists.
You Know,
Could you please post the scriptures that you quoted? I would like to research them myself.
Thanks,
Looking
first off, i want to say that i am very grateful for this place where i can speak whatevers on my mind.
ive often been amazed at the role that the wtbts & gb put themselves into, all the while claiming that they are not promoting their own standards, and understandings.
heres just a little research ive done lately on what it means to be a sect.
Hello all,
First off, I want to say that I am very grateful for this place where I can speak whatever’s on my mind. I’ve often been amazed at the role that the WTBTS & GB put themselves into, all the while claiming that they are not promoting their own standards, and understandings. Here’s just a little research I’ve done lately on what it means to be a sect. All quotations come from the 1999 WT Publications CD. I’ll reserve my comments for the end of each section, thus the references are numbered.
*** Rbi8 Titus 3:10-11 ***
10 As for a man that promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition; 11 knowing that such a man has been turned out of the way and is sinning, he being self-condemned.
First the definitions of a sect, as given by the WTS.
[1]*** it-2 886 Sect ***
The Greek word (hai're·sis, from which comes the English word "heresy") thus translated means "choice" (Le 22:18, LXX) or "that which is chosen," hence "a body of men separating themselves from others and following their own tenets [a sect or party]." (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 1889, p. 16)
[2]*** rs 202 Jehovah's Witnesses ***
Some define sect to mean a group that has broken away from an established religion. Others apply the term to a group that follows a particular human leader or teacher. The term is usually used in a derogatory way.
[3]*** w98 3/15 10-11 Slaves of Men or Servants of God? ***
Dangers of Following Men
A "sect" has been defined as "a group adhering to a distinctive doctrine or to a leader." Similarly, those belonging to a "cult" have "great devotion to a person, idea, or thing." Actually, the members of any religious group who strongly adhere to human leaders and their ideas are in danger of becoming slaves of men. A strong leader-oriented relationship can lead to an unhealthy emotional and spiritual dependency. The danger may be compounded when a person is reared in a sectarian atmosphere from childhood.
[4]*** g88 1/8 26 Is Sectarian Worship Acceptable to God? ***
The word "sect" is here translated from the Greek word hai're·sis, meaning "a choice," that is, "the choice of an opinion contrary to that usually received." Thus, a "sect" is a group or a body of people that chooses to follow a course or belief different from what is commonly accepted.
COMMENTS
[1] – “a body of men separating themselves”, I can’t help but think of the GB at this phrase.
[2] – In the early 20th century the JW’s in many ways worshipped Rutherford.
[3] – This one’s great. “Adhering to a distinctive doctrine”, can anyone say 1914? How about the 144,000? The JW’s are constantly being told to “strongly adhere” to the GB’s teachings. And I can personally vouch for the increased danger of being indoctrinated from childhood.
[4] – Oh my goodness. They seriously say that to be a sect means to believe “different from what is commonly accepted”.
Next the advice given by the WTS to investigate your religion.
[5]*** w98 3/15 10-11 Slaves of Men or Servants of God? ***
Those who have such concerns about a religion need reliable information. Some may have been told that the Witnesses belong to a religious organization that enslaves its members, exercises authoritarian control over them, unduly restricts their freedom, and throws them out of step with society as a whole.
Jehovah's Witnesses know that these concerns are unwarranted. Therefore, they invite you to check for yourself. After careful consideration, draw your own conclusions. Are the Witnesses servants of God, as they claim, or actually slaves of men?
[6]*** g88 1/8 27 Is Sectarian Worship Acceptable to God? ***
What You Should Do
True Christianity is not a sect, nor does it exist in divisions. If you belong to a church, then it behooves you to examine carefully what your church teaches and what "fruits" its members produce. Are these wholly based on and in harmony with the Bible? Or could it be that your church has also chosen a course different from what the Bible teaches, thus making it a sect? A diligent study of the Bible is the only way to know for sure.
COMMENTS
[5] – “Check for yourself…draw your own conclusions”, of course be D/F and shunned by all of your friends and family if you come to conclusions different than theirs.
[6] – “Examine carefully what your church teaches and what ‘fruits’ its members produce”. Why thank you, I think I will. As for their fruits, much has come to light of these recently.
Now the denials, and rationalizations used by the WTS.
[7]*** rs 202 Jehovah's Witnesses ***
Jehovah's Witnesses are not an offshoot of some church but include persons from all walks of life and from many religious backgrounds. They do not look to any human, but rather to Jesus Christ, as their leader.
[8]*** jv 117 9 Jehovah's Word Keeps Moving Speedily (1976-1992) ***
From the 1870's down to the present, certain men have made outstanding contributions to the advancement of the Kingdom work, men such as Charles T. Russell, Joseph F. Rutherford, Nathan H. Knorr, and Frederick W. Franz, as well as others who have served as members of the Governing Body. But in no way have Jehovah's Witnesses become a sect built around the personalities of any of these men. Instead, they have but one leader, "the Christ." (Matt. 23:10) He is the Head of these organized Witnesses of Jehovah, the one to whom "all authority has been given" for directing this work "all the days until the conclusion of the system of things." (Matt. 28:18-20) They are determined to submit to Christ's headship, keep close to God's Word, and cooperate with the leading of the holy spirit, that they may continue moving ahead in the worship of the only true God and in proving themselves to be "a people peculiarly his own, zealous for fine works."-Titus 2:14.
[9]*** w99 7/15 16 Anchored by Hope, Impelled by Love ***
4 Far from discouraging us, however, opposition should strengthen our conviction that we are practicing true Christianity. (Matthew 5:11, 12) The early Christians were accused of being a seditious sect, and they were "spoken against" everywhere. (Acts 24:5; 28:22) But the apostle Peter reassured his fellow believers, writing: "Beloved ones, do not be puzzled at the burning among you, which is happening to you for a trial, as though a strange thing were befalling you. On the contrary, go on rejoicing forasmuch as you are sharers in the sufferings of the Christ, that you may rejoice and be overjoyed also during the revelation of his glory." (1 Peter 4:12, 13) Similarly, a member of the first-century governing body wrote: "Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you meet with various trials, knowing as you do that this tested quality of your faith works out endurance. But let endurance have its work complete, that you may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything." (James 1:2-4)
COMMENTS
[7] – Ok.
[8] – Ok.
[9] – I’ve always gotten angry after reading things like this. “How do I know this is the true religion, and not just a sect?” “Because people say that it isn’t the true religion, and is a sect. And you should be joyful, …damit.”
Finally what I feel the truth of the WTS is based on their own statements.
[10]*** pe 195 23 God's Visible Organization ***
At the headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses in Brooklyn, New York, there is a governing body of older Christian men from various parts of the earth who give the needed oversight to the worldwide activities of God's people. This governing body is made up of members of "the faithful and discreet slave." It serves as a spokesman for that faithful "slave."
[11]*** w97 6/1 14 A Secret Christians Dare Not Keep! ***
The slave class strives to avoid being dogmatic. It is not too proud to admit that as of now it cannot answer every question, keeping Proverbs 4:18 clearly in mind. But how thrilling to know that Jehovah, in his own due time and in his own way, will continue to reveal his secrets as to his purposes! Never should we become impatient with Jehovah's arrangement, indiscreetly trying to rush ahead of the Revealer of secrets. How reassuring it is to know that the channel Jehovah is using today does not do so! It is both faithful and discreet.
[12]*** w94 10/1 8 The Bible-A Book Meant to Be Understood ***
All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the "greatly diversified wisdom of God" can become known only through Jehovah's channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave.
[13]*** w73 7/1 402 Praise Jehovah with His People ***
4 Consider, too, the fact that Jehovah's organization alone, in all the earth, is directed by God's holy spirit or active force. (Zech. 4:6) Only this organization functions for Jehovah's purpose and to his praise. To it alone God's Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book.
[14]*** w73 7/1 402 Praise Jehovah with His People ***
How very much true Christians appreciate associating with the only organization on earth that understands the "deep things of God"!
[15]*** w81 2/15 19 Do We Need Help to Understand the Bible? ***
Jesus' disciples wrote many letters to Christian congregations, to persons who were already in "the way of the truth." (2 Pet. 2:2) But nowhere do we read that those brothers first, in a skeptical frame of mind, checked the Scriptures to make certain that those letters had Scriptural backing, that the writers really knew what they were talking about... We should have confidence in the channel God is using... No question about it. We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the "faithful and discreet slave" organization.
[16]*** w81 12/1 27 The Path of the Righteous Does Keep Getting Brighter ***
But Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his "faithful and discreet slave," made up of spirit-anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do.
[17]*** w83 3/1 25 What Is Our Position Toward Opposers of the Truth? ***
They may also question the need for an organization to direct the minds of God's people. Their view is, God's spirit can direct individuals without some central, organized body of men giving direction. They will declare that all one needs to do is to read the Bible.
[18]*** w81 8/15 28-9 Serving Jehovah "Shoulder to Shoulder" ***
They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such 'Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago
[19]*** w73 8/1 460 Cultivating Friendship with God ***
Yes, we should be deeply appreciative of all the fine spiritual food that "the faithful and discreet slave" class has been providing through The Watchtower, now for ninety-four years.
[20]*** w81 8/15 28 Serving Jehovah "Shoulder to Shoulder" ***
It has required our giving proper recognition to the one organization that Jehovah is using in the earth today, and this by our associating with the "faithful and discreet slave." It has required meekness, in our "carefully examining" God's Word with the aid of that 'slave's' publications, in order to fortify our faith.
[21]*** w98 7/15 13 Beware of a Lack of Faith ***
When the slave class offers counsel on the need to be selective in our choice of music and entertainment, and so forth, do we gratefully accept it and make adjustments
[22]*** w98 10/15 16 Jerusalem-Is It 'Above Your Chief Cause for Rejoicing'? ***
From time to time, this journal has identified unscriptural conduct that would disqualify a person from remaining a part of God's organization. In 1973, for example, Jehovah's people came to understand fully that drug abuse and the use of tobacco are serious sins. To pursue a godly course, we must "cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit." (2 Corinthians 7:1)
COMMENTS
[10] - This is their claim, that these specific men, the governing body, are the faithful and discreet slave.
[11] - JW's are ordered to stay behind the FDS. They are Jehovah's word.
[12],[13],[14],[15] - Truth and Understanding of God only through the WTS.
[16],[17],[18],[19],[20] – The GB teaches that God’s word the Bible is not enough for us to be true Christians. All must study WTS publications and teachings for salvation.
[21],[22] - Must follow FDS understandings, and judgements on lifestyles, and conduct.
I do not question the role that the scriptures put forth for the true “faithful and discreet slave”, but the WTS has positioned it’s fleshly “Governing Body” as the only way for people to attain salvation, or for that matter true happiness. They have governed, to the minutest detail, the lives of their followers, forcing them to conform to their every command. Although the WTS’s requirements may not always be termed commands, they are always laced with underhanded threats of dire consequences if disobeyed. So in my humble and inexperienced opinion, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, and thus Jehovah’s Witnesses, are a sect.
Whoa, I was really long winded with all of that. Thanks for your patience, and please give me your comments, agreeing, opposing, or whatever else.
looking
c-14 made simple .
i am reading with amazement the comments about c-14 dating.
thankfully, larc brought my older posts on this back to the top.
Here's something that pissed me off a few weeks ago. I've known for a long time that the society has to discount the credibility of Carbon dating to maintain their beliefs. But, at the same time they use it when it serves their purpose, or appeals to their target audience. This is a quote from a recent book study in the "Is There a Creator Who Cares About You" book.
*** ct 108-9 7 What Can You Learn About the Creator From a Book? ***
All of that came true. The histories recorded by Jesus’ contemporaries—Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John—bear out that what Isaiah had foretold did in fact occur. Some of the events took place after Jesus’ death, so the situation was not one he could have manipulated. (Matthew 8:16, 17; 26:67; 27:14, 39-44, 57-60; John 19:1, 34) The total fulfillment of Isaiah’s Messianic prophecy has had a powerful effect on sincere Bible readers over the centuries, including some who formerly did not accept Jesus. Scholar William Urwick notes: “Many Jews, in committing to writing the reason of their conversion to Christianity, acknowledged that it was the perusal of this chapter [Isaiah 53] which had shaken their faith in their old creed and teachers.”—The Servant of Jehovah.
Urwick made that comment in the late 1800’s, when some might still have doubted whether Isaiah chapter 53 had been written centuries before Jesus’ birth. However, discoveries since then have essentially removed any basis for doubt. In 1947, a Bedouin shepherd near the Dead Sea discovered an ancient scroll of the entire book of Isaiah. Experts in ancient writing dated the scroll as being from 125 to 100 B.C.E. Then in 1990, a carbon 14 analysis of the scroll gave a date of between 202 and 107 B.C.E. Yes, this famous scroll of Isaiah was already quite old when Jesus was born. What does comparing it with modern Bibles reveal?
Ahhhh, so now C14 is good. I HATE self-serving, wishy-washy arguments. I'm not saying that I doubt the dead sea scrolls, just their arguing using C14.
Anyway,
I'm just looking
i've always been taught that each disciple of christ has a scriptural obligation to preach, and to do so in imitation of jesus and his disciples.
they did this by house to house, in synagogues, and in the marketplaces.
this is one thing that has always kept me close to jehovah's witnesses.
Thanks for the replies.
Gopher,
What about the wording of Acts 20:20 is debatable? Does it read differently in translations other than the NWT?
Sincerely,
lookingnow22
i've always been taught that each disciple of christ has a scriptural obligation to preach, and to do so in imitation of jesus and his disciples.
they did this by house to house, in synagogues, and in the marketplaces.
this is one thing that has always kept me close to jehovah's witnesses.
I've always been taught that each disciple of Christ has a scriptural obligation to preach, and to do so in imitation of Jesus and his disciples. They did this by house to house, in synagogues, and in the marketplaces.
This is one thing that has always kept me close to Jehovah's Witnesses. How do many of you feel about this commission, isn't it our scriptural duty?
Looking
p.s. - I'm not looking for trouble, I'm just now looking for truth.
