Posts by LostMyReligion

14

More Notes from 2001District Conv.---Sunday

by LostMyReligion in

jw
friends

here are some of the spiritual gems i gleaned from sunday's sessions.. symposium on book of malachi:.

points in which we can magnify jehovah.

do not be like priests at mal.1:13 to whom temple service was a burden.

LostMyReligion

Here are some of the spiritual gems I gleaned from Sunday's sessions.

Symposium on Book of Malachi:
points in which we can magnify Jehovah
Do not be like priests at Mal.1:13 to whom temple service was a burden. We should delight in offering spiritual sacfirice to God, never considering it a burden.
How glad we are that our spiritual sacrifices are not mere formality. (at least , that's what we keep telling ourselves)
Cursed is anyone giving a lame sacrifice. Each must render an account to God. Mal.1:14
( More of those tasty vitamins, aacch, I think they have backed up on me!)

Jehovah hates the course of treachery. Do you want to enjoy long life? You must meet God's requirements. Is it difficult? No! When Jehovah gives a command, we must be obedient or there are grave consequences. Mal.2:2
God will spread DUNG on their faces as it says in Mal.2:3 (They had a lot of fun with this one)

Have you not learned that the very law of truth is in the mouth of anointed Christians! By following their example are we as other sheep not rewarded?Are we personally alert that no unrighteousness is found on our lips.
Are we trustworthy? Or do we couch our words so that they are technically accurate but but designed to conceal as much as they reveal? (Like the part about not shunning relatives on the jw-media site? Hmmmm)

Other forms of treachery are concerning marriage as addressed at Mal.2:11,14. Marring foreigners, that is marrying out of the truth is treachery---Jehovah will cut off each one acts treacherously. Mistreating one's mate, esp. by divorcing--treachery. Good Christian men will not degrade their wives viewing porn on the internet or by insisting on dishonorable sex practices.
(None were specified, wonder which ones they meant? The hard line seems to be returning)

Who will survive the day of Jehovah? No one will be exempt. People who ignore Jah's principles and knowledge of him, we will tread down and they will be like powder under our feet! Mal.4:3 How will this be? It will be in a spiritual sense by taking part in a great joyful celebration after the Day of Armageddon. ISA.25:8-9
As we contemplate the awesome fear-inspiring day of Jehovah, do we not have reason to be the happiest people on earth!
(no comment needed)

DRAMA: Respect Jehovah's Authority
A costume drama about the account of Korah's rebellion against Moses, those who joined him, and his sons who did not support him but stated loyal to Moses as appointed leader. ( Very similar to one of the older dramas on the same story, with much of the extra-Biblical dialog lifted word for word from the earlier performance). Narrated by Elkanah a son of Korah.
Mostly consists of those opposed to Moses' leadership and those loyal to it argueing back and forth over their respective positions. The dialog was molded heavy-handedly to reflect things which might be said in modern situations.
Some interesting excerpts (paraphrases) from both sides:
This story is of a family tragedy, one in which loyalty is tested--Loyalty to Jehovah or loyalty to friends or family members is a choice which will have to be made by those involved.
In my eyes Moses leadership is a failure. Isn't he just a man? Doesn't he make mistakes?
We (sons of Korah) love our father, and it is heart rending to see him take a course of opposition, but we want to be faithful to Jehovah. Lately he seems to enjoy the attention of gathering others to listen to him. Look at the motives of those who agree with him. Could it be jealousy of privileges they don't have? We stand at Jehovah's house and cherish the privileges we have been given!
Korah: Moses would have us believe that God made him the author of all knowledge from Him and that we must still learn it from Moses. It's his clever speech; I am through being deceived! He uses persuasion rather than force, and he has grown wickedly powerful. He should be punished.
Dathan & Abiram when summoned by Moses: We will not come up to hear Moses. He plays the prince to the limit, and has not brought us to any land of milk and honey. Num.16:12-14
Elkanah, Korah's son: My family and others have been greatly affected by these events, but I don't want undue sadness to cloud the issue. They were rebellious to God and did not respect those whom Jehovah had appointed.

Respect for those appointed by Jehovah IS respect for Jehovah. We should not let friendship or family relationships take precedence over respect for Jehovah's authority.

Follow-up talk: Loyally submit to God's authority
6 points we can learn from the drama
1. Could we develope an attitude like Korah, now or in the future? He was 80 years oldbefore he decided to act. If we are speaking abusively in private conversations with confidantes, we could be speaking abusively of "glorious ones". Avoid resisting the decisions of those appointed to take the lead.

2. Korah coveted the position of high priest. His motives were pride, ambition, and jealousy. They were a cancer waiting to metastasize.

3. Imperfections of appointed men are not a ligitimate excuse for rejecting authority. These ones are not appointed by men, but by holy spirit. What if we don't but this in certain cases? We are implying that Jehovah doesn't know, isn't concerned, or can't handle the situation. If we cooperate, all will be built up.

4. Complaining and murmuring is spiritually destructive and leads to open opposition. There is danger in contradictory talk and resentment. We could undermine other's respect for authority. Jehovah is in control and will safeguard us.

5. Be content with whatever privileges we have. Some become jealous when they see younger ones get a privilege they do not have even though they have more years in the truth.

6. Friendship or family should never take precedence over loyalty to Jehovah. We should not help a family member conceal a serious sin. We should fully cooperate with elders to correct a wayward brother.Do not question decisions made by appointed ones or bristle at their direction. If we loyally submit to Jah's authority, he will lead us into our "promised land".

( They really hit these points about not siding with family over the org. It makes me worry what may be in store for me if my son gets a guilty conscience over keeping quiet about my disagreements with the WTS. All dissident thought or opinion was characterized as being a hallmark of rebelliousness, jealousy, greed, or ambition. )

End of morning session
It is midnight now, and I have to go to bed. I hope there are not too many typos in this. I will do the afternoon session in the morning, and post it in this same thread. For those who were interested in Saturday. I will be going next week, as we split our attendance up over 2 weekends. I can tell you that a new book was announced called "Benefit From Theocratic Ministry School Education", but must be ordered later.

LMR

59

Blood, The Watchtower and Deceit

by Maximus in

jw
friends

while much attention is given to doctrine in sites such as this, very little is noted about the watchtower societys intellectual dishonesty in its publications, especially when it comes to quotations.. oftentimes the societys writers will cite a scholar or author of some repute: "professor blank observes that blah, blah, blah.

" the reader assumes from the quotation that professor blank is in agreement with the organizations position, of course, and that the quotation chosen accurately depicts the authors thoughts.. heres the catch: the words between the quotation marks may be accurate, but the snippet may not at all faithfully represent someones actual thesis or position.

much like a newspaper ad for a movie that quotes a reviewer as saying "monumental!

LostMyReligion

I will thank you Maximus, for this article you researched. I sure appreciate the opportunity to hear the inside view of things from ones in higher positions such as former district overseers and elders. It is otherwise very difficult for a lowly R&F peon like me to learn what's really going on. I have been a witness 27 years and I have learned more about what is going on behind the scenes in the org reading on this board and other WT exposing sites in 3 months than in all that 27 years.

This example of WT insincerity is very disturbing, and certainly gives one pause to think of the consequences one might have personally suffered in emergency situations by relying on reasoning supported by this type of duplicity in quoting the work of outside authors. And of the definite tragedy which others have suffered by it.

LMR

42

Notes from 2001 District Conv.---Friday

by LostMyReligion in

jw
friends

here are a few notes i took at the friday session of the 2001 "teachers of god's word" district convention.

i thought i would share these upbuilding theocratic point with my new friends, along with my thoughts as i was listening to the program.

1st instruction of the day: sing loudly and listen to the prayer!

LostMyReligion

Here are a few notes I took at the Friday session of the 2001 "Teachers of God's Word" District convention. I thought I would share these upbuilding theocratic point with my new friends, along with my thoughts as I was listening to the program.

1st instruction of the day: sing loudly and listen to the prayer! (you daydreaming slackers -- you know who you are)

We may have been tired when we got here, but the next 3 days will be like a vitamin shot---energizing us for activity when we get home. (Yah, a vitamin shot of vitamins F and G---fear and guilt.)

How do you feel knowing that many, including ones close to you are soon to meet their end? (more vitamins F & G)

Experience: A sister with a child was a low time publisher due to her busy life and activities. Among those spoken about were working full-time as a disaster insurance adjuster (necessitating 2-3 week out of town trips to disaster sites), volunteering at the Special Olympics, and doing work for the Breast Cancer Awareness group. Also she was very involved with raising her child, taking him rollerblading, snowboarding, and to the beach. Then she heard the admonition at a district conv. "Are you living for "today" or for the future. Then she decided to cut way back on her activities, becoming an auxillary pio. and then a regular pioneer. (Isn't that wonderful, she's helping so many more people now![8v] )

Experience: a young sister had the goal of pioneering, but was such a good student that she recieved offers of a scholarship. But this would mean she would have to give up her goal of pioneering. She decided instead to give up material goals for spiritual ones. After a while pioneering, she found herself without sufficient money to continue. She prayed for her exact needs. Shortly, a job offer came which allowed her to work on her non-service days and provided EXACTLY to the dollar what she needed to continue pioneering. ( I guess that not going to college thing is still the preferred way.)

What we read, watch, participate in, and talk about should not be a part of the world's entertainment. (What's left?--Listen to kingdom melodies and read the WT!)

Talk about being clean people.---First part of talk concerned being physically clean, bodies, homes, etc. Maintain spiritual cleaness both morally and doctrinally. Beware of apostates! (Oh no, have I been compromised!)

As God's representatives, a truly awesome responsibility rests on our shoulders. ( And what about the responsibility on the shoulders of those who send us out under their authority and guidance?)

A real danger: What if we were watching a movie at home which contained scenes of intense violence oriented action, or other questionable images (no particular rating was mentioned), and a sensitive Bible study stopped by unexpectedly. It could offend him, cause him to have difficulty leaving his worldly habits, or stumble him! (Couldn't we just turn off the VCR before he comes in?)

Experience: A brother had to take a job working nights, but he insisted that he must be allowed time off for meetings. His employer said OK, but....... he would not be paid for those hours he was absent from his shift. Can you imagine friends, each week it was as if that brother had to write a check for a certain amount to be able to attend the meetings! (Duh! Even my JW son said who would expect to be paid if he was not at work.)

Talk: Oppose the Devil
Satan was compared to a serial killer a la Ted Bundy. He uses the same tricks, hides behind a mask of normalcy, conceals his true motives, and has a certain victim profile which he prefers. Do you know the profile? Do you fit it? Satan takes more delight in making JWs his victims that anyone else! What is he looking for? Attitudes and heart conditions make us his targets. Are we easily provoked, critical of elders and their actions, resentful of counsel? Do we have a complaining self-oriented spirit? These things make us prime targets. These attitudes are a form of greed---putting our feelings and desires before those of others. (More vitamins F&G. Maybe it would pay to be one of those worldly people after all.)

Talk:Jehovah Beautifies His People with Light
Given by (drum roll, please) Ted Jaracz of the Governing Body
A round of pre-talk clapping was given ( no one else got any)

He said, "True christians are not content with just attending a rew religious services. They also give of their time and resources to promote true worship." (a few--a FEW!)

Released new Isaiah pt 2 book

Observation: With only a small number of exceptions, the experiences were given by brothers merely relating the story, rather than the individual involved. Is this some kind of new experience standardization?

Well, if these are enjoyed by any, I will put up a few more after I attend the rest of the conv.

LMR

12

If Witnesses Had To Be Honest in F.S.

by NikL in

jw
friends

witness: hi.

witness: right.

witness: oh yes.

LostMyReligion

NikL

Thanks for posting this. I too had read in my investigative wanderings and loved it, but didn't recall where I had seen it. I was thinking about it the other day and wishing I had printed it when I saw it. Now I can do that. As I read it the first time it made me think about all the times in service when I would hate having to give people those weasel answers which were designed to be palatable to the householder and contain enough double talk so that we could avoid giving the really honest answer to their questions. I learned how to do it, but I never felt comfortable with it.

LMR

Q: Was nothing real? A: YOU were real. ( The Truman Show)

10

Baptismal Questions

by LovesDubs in

jw
friends

i was baptized june 1, 1985. thats the day they started using the new baptismal questions in their baptismal talk on the baptismal day to all the baptismal candidates.

did any of you actually hear those questions they made you stand up to hear read?

would any of us at that moment in time actually have said anything but a resounding "yes!!!

LostMyReligion

I was baptized in 1974, under the old questions, but both my sons got dunked in the late 80's so had the new ones. At the time, I was vaguely aware that the questions were some how shorter that the ones I remembered from my own baptism, but gave no real thought to looking for any concealed meaning behind the difference. I do not ever remember actually seeing the baptism questions in print (though they must have been, if I had looked), until I began reading on the net and R Franz' books. The revelation of the darker implications of this "organizational" change , when brought to my attention was shocking in its audacity. This new knowledge created one of the major holes in my former belief system which was rapidly becoming swiss cheese left out of the refrigerator too long. I am not sure though, that if I had been shown this change of dedication several years ago, it would have sunk in. Sad, but such is the nature of mind control.

LMR

23

The JDubs and Amway--a match made in hell......

by LDH in

jw
friends

there are many perceptive posters here who have picked up on the mlm amway/jdub connection.. however, there are some who are not familiar with what we are talking about.

i thought for them it would be nice to list some similarities between the two organizations.. btw, amway has a new line of business, they're calling it quixtar.

so if you get approached for this, be aware it's just amway.

LostMyReligion

Greetings!
Although my husband and I have been approached a couple of times by Amway, we never got involved. The WT injunction against business at the KH and our own convictions against using spiritual contacts for a business domain for selling, and the fact that I could barely "sell" the WT mags, even for God kept us out. But as I related in my introduction story, mu son was recently approached by an MLM, not Amway, but Primerica (connected to A.L. Williams). It sounds very appealing, but boils down to selling insurance and home loans at no bargain price.

This led me to get him online with me to investigate the down side of these outfits. We quickly found several sites exposing their methods and the sad and painful aftermath in many peoples lives. (No criticism to those of you who are able to benefit from this type of business. If you like it, great!) In our search, we ran across a page which called the WTS, and an Amway related company both BORG. This stabbed me emotionally, and later I had to return to see what it was. While wandering around between these 2 subjects, I found a document which was a key element in causing me to really consider whether or not the WTS was less holy than it proclaimed, and begin an intense investigation into all things "apostate". It was a list called "Things They Will Say" containing 46 points outlining the manipulation, guilt-inducing, and controlling tactics one could expect to be the object of as an Amway associate. As I read through them, I was deeply disturbed and stunned. About 95% of the points were parallel to what takes place at the KH. In the past, I had heard "friends" who did Amway say that being in it was like being in the "truth", but always thought they were just over zealous in their business pursuits. Little did I know!

I invite those who are interested to peruse this enlightening list for themselves. I would love to hear their thoughts on the points offered. http://www.angelfire.com/or/amwaydreamers/index2.html

LMR

17

WTBS Made a Huge Mistake!

by patio34 in

jw
friends

i was tempted to write the wtbs today.

i'm reading a loaned copy (from my younger sister, 'waiting') of ray franz's "in search of christian freedom.

" it is a masterful point-by-point refutation of the wts doctrine.

LostMyReligion

Hi Pat!

It's me, your email pen-pal from the other half of that big state out west somewhere. I decided to give this posting thing another try.

I heartily agree with you on the value of Ray Franz' books. I ended up reading "Christian Freedom" first and then COC. They aare both exposes ( can't make an accent for that word) of the first degree as far as I am concerned. Especially ISOCF is a masterpiece of research and reasoning, and enabled me to let go of the lingering fears of "what if they could be right" about this or that issue, and feel the full weight of indignation of things like disfellowshipping which I had no real personal experience with, never having had a close friend or relative suffer it.

I agree that they made a huge mistake DFing RF not only because he knows where the skeletons are, but because his writing style was so much more readable than 90% of the standard WT output. They should have let him write a lot more. I had no trouble reading the hundreds of pages in his 2 books, but I can barely make it through 3 or 4 pages of the WT before numbness sets in. Of course the object of the subject matter may have something to do with that.

Looking forward to conversational interchange with you here, and in my email box!

LMR

84

Bonsai Kitty

by suzi mayhem in

jw
friends

ok.. i know i've been a bit of a buster in the past, but this is for real.

there is a site out there, and apparently a demand, for modified housepets.

in a nutshell, what these ahem... [people] do is take a kitten, sedate it, insert the poor thing into a glass bottle with air holes drilled into it, and run tubes into it to feed it, and tubes into it to take care of everything else.

LostMyReligion

Whew, this discussion was really creeping me out, until I finally got the guts to go look at the site. A few days ago when I first saw this topic, I thought," how utterly disgusting and depraved". I could not bring myself to face the possiblility of looking and having those images permanently in my mind. Today when I saw the growth in the thread, I read it again (the posted pics were great) and at last decided I had to look at what all the fuss was about.

I must say, that I am a devoted lover of cats. I have 6 in my family, and one usually sits on my lap as I type or read on the computer. For the last 12 years, I have made a business of selling my cat based works of art at cat shows, and I have a house full of cat knick knacks. I love animals in general and cats in particular and I abhor seeing anything hurt or abused. That was my perspective as I apprehensively pulled up bonsaikitten.com. I started to read, saving a look at the picture gallery for last if I thought I could stomach it.

As I read through the site, it soon became very apparent that it was unmistakeably a parody. The language, the silly testimonial letters, and the supposed world wide popularity of the "hobby" and more point hopelessly in that direction. I have to admit that I, even I, laughed a couple of times. Finally, I looked at the pictures of the "product". I seemed to me that in no way was the kitten harmed. It did not even look like photographic trickery. In one shot, it looks to me like the kitten went into the jar to nibble a tidbit of food placed therein.

I do sympathize with the ones who were seriously offended and their sensitivity to any possible abuse by readers of the site. But I guess I do have an appreciation for some forms of offensive humor. But the point of that type of humor is sometimes to cause people to look at their own practices, prejudices, and preconcieved notions. Do they take themselves so seriously that they may have difficulty stepping back and looking at themselves or their culture and ask why they feel so offended. On the other hand, maybe it is not so deep, and the authors are just trying to play with our heads.

28

I got my nerve up, gonna try this again!

by LostMyReligion in

jw
friends

i first posted to this board as "truman" about 2 months ago.

it was a time of deep depression, confusion, fear, and paranoia for me, as i had just 3 weeks before discovered that everything i had believed for 27 years was only a pipe dream.. everyone was very welcoming, but after only a few posts, i got so afraid i had to stop.

i was fearful of revealing too much, being somehow discovered, and of the possibility of saying the wrong thing, incurring the ire of my betters here.

LostMyReligion

Thanks everyone for your greetings!

Ozziepost--You weren't late at all. It was a welcome surpise to log on this morning and see your message and all the others.

thinkers wife, emyrose, and Tw-- Thanks for the welcomes and encouragement. Thinkers wife--Thanks too for the compliment. I'd like to think I had a brain all along, but where was it?

Marilyn--Sounds like we have very similar positions in age and kids, but my time in the "truth" was not so productive as yours. I only made one sacrifice--er--disciple, my 1st born son. Your comments about cyber space buddies are on target. Right now it seems they are my only friends, as I do not feel like I can fully enjoy the friendships (few though they were) I had till now in the cong. knowing how they would view me if the knew my real feelings. It is sad, I have known these people for over 15 years, and they are good people who only see me as depressed presently, but if they knew........

Sunbeam--Yea, I was on a roll with movie references that night as Truman. But I do do other things besides watch movies. Sometimes. As for your daughter-in-law of exjw situation, I honestly do not know what can help, other than as you said, kindness, love, and prayer. From what I have read and personally experienced, it seems that a person/jw has to be ready for the "awakening" in some way. Some may experience the final dawning suddenly like me, some gradually, or some through traumatic events. Just my view from a very limited perspective. But as jws say about those who left, there's always hope.
I can empathize with what I hear describe as the emotional mindset of your mother-in-law. Just a short time ago, I was there too. My exjw son is not married, but I was alienating him every time I spoke to him by trying to "guilt" him over his abandonment of his upbringing, the pain I felt about his choice (and that pain was very real, deep, and inconsolable), and the future consequences of losing out on life in paradise. It was getting to the point of his not wanting to have a conversation with me at all because of my exhortations. All the while, I felt that I had to do these things. If I just dropped it or tried to focus on other things in his life, I would be condoning or at least excusing his choice. Also there was a constant fear of learning he might have done something wrong or worldly. It was all extremely painful, and I believe this great internal conflict in me between the "truth" and my son whom I knew to be a person of good conscience, was the catalyst which finally pushed me into my investigations. Now we have repaired our relationship and are enjoying each other's company. For all the pain I have experienced over finding this new information about the WTS, the great joy of having my son back is a counterbalance. To feel compelled to reject one's child seems for a mother one of the worst possible things to endure. I can't help but believe that your mother-in-law is suffering greatly inside, but has to rationalize her position with "theocratic" thinking. What a terrible situation. And to be the object of parental judgement and rejection while trying to maintain a relationship and listening to their misplaced ministrations is equally so. As one DF'd young man told me, "Yes it is painful, but I do it because I love her." I hope someday things will change for you, your husband, and his mother.

Outnfree--I really appreciate having the benefit of your experiences on the futility of trying to help one close to you. It certainly is hard won knowledge. I have gone over many scenarios in my mind concerning future conversations with my JW son and the outcome you endured is one I have contemplated and do not want to live through. It is very sad, but the need to be shielded from questioning or dissident information is very strongly indoctrinated by the WTS, as is the compulsion to defend vigorously even what one may deep inside have doubts about. I have done that myself--give the party line to others on a subject I had misgivings on personally, and convinced myself that it was the proper viewpoint. Maybe some of the things you told your friend will bubble within her over time--one can hope. For the present with my Jw son, I try to take a long term view, painful as it is. If, as he says he is content and fulfilled with his current beliefs and spiritual pursuits, then I feel I have no right to try to wreck his faith. But, I will be quietly standing by if in the future he should find himself with questions or doubts, to step up and help him if allowed. Thanks so much for your insights, and I look forward to future conversations with you and all the others.

LMR

22

2001 District Convention Program

by Osarsif in

jw
friends

teachers of god's word.

district convention of jehovah's witnesses 2001-2002

fridayinspired scriptures beneficial for teaching -- 2 timothy 3:16morning9:30 music.

LostMyReligion

Thanks for posting that convention program Osarif!. I will have a few days to steel myself for what is to come. You guys are really scaring me; I have to be in attendance at the local District Conv. this weekend! Oh, the anticipation is building for hearing all those timely warnings about the dangers of apostate treachery and internet contamination. Well, maybe I will be a good little witness, and take notes (on the more outrageous statements and assertions) and then share them with everyone next week!

LMR