Don't worry, Quiet one, me and Aguest are just having some fun. I am in no way offended by anything Aguest says, and I hope (and Aguest indicates) that it is mutual. I respect people, but not ideas. Ideas are meant to be kicked around, torn to pieces, and taped back together. I always respect an individual, but never respect their ideas, and I only ask that same treatment. So me and Aguest are cool, don't worry about it.
But on that note, I will only agree to disagree. But the discussion was not for the benefit of myself or Aguest, we already know what we believe and why, it is just for your benefit (so sorry if it seemed harsh), so you can see different ways of reasoning, and if simply claiming "it's beyond reason or evidence" is a compelling arguement or remotely sane way to figure out if something is true.
I contest (obviously) that it is not. There is no way for a person to say "I can hear the voice of my savior, and he instructs me." and for you to be able to say that there is any truth to that beyond "this person is hearing voices". Because there are alot of people that hear voices, but they can never agree on who they are and what they want. It should also be telling that people only hear the voices of the spirits they believe in. You never hear a devout muslim saying "I keep hearing this wierd voice, It's definitely not allah, I know Allah's voice. This seems a bit more...eh...jewish? Keeps saying something about treasures in heaven, and holy one of Israel...I don't know, I'm just going to ignore it, that's what Allah would want." The voices always seem to align with whatever religious disposition the person has. You can take that information and do with it as you will.
It should also be telling that for every person that hears these voices there is some different explanation as to why other people aren't hearing them the same way. For Aguest, this seems to be that we either are ignoring the voice, don't know "how" to hear the voice, or perhaps when we searched for truth we did it wrong, or found the wrong truth. This seems to me to be a pretty weak view of this messiah. Can you imagine him watching you read the bible and going "Yes, yes....he's searching, he really wants to know me...aw, dammit he's totally misunderstanding that passage, THANKS ALOT protestant denomination number 312, now I can't talk to the guy. Well, maybe if I just yell, HEY, HEY, I AM THE CHRIST....dammit all to hell, he doesn't know how to use his spirit ears. Well....nevermind. Atheism isn't that bad." If christ wanted us to hear him, there would be nothing to prevent us from hearing him. Which means we can only assume that everyone that doesn't hear him, doesn't want to. Even going so far to say that I do not want to test it, like a person who claims the earth is flat but won't get in the boat. Believe me I tested as much as anyone. As the old joke goes, I prayed to god to be shown truth, and I found atheism.
Also notice, that when it came to an impasse, when a Muslim or a Hindu also heard voices but not attributing it to Jesus, then to reason with them Aguest immediately went back to historical EVIDENCE. Which leaves you with either trying to use historical evidence and reason to determine the value of the bible or any holy writ, or hearing voices in your head (or "heart") and insisting that you aren't crazy just like all the other people hearing voices in their head that are making wildly different claims, and coming up with reasons why some people don't hear the voices, and why those other voices are wrong.
You can use this information as you see fit.
As a note to Aguest, at no point did I say you had no right to believe what you do. As voltaire said, I may disagree with what you say but i will fight to the death for your right to say it. Simply claiming that the view of divine revelation is disrespectful to all non christians does not imply that you have no right to believe it. Also, plato's apologies never say anything about Socrates worshipping Yahweh, or Adonai, or the jewish god. But it does talk about how socrates believes wisdom only belongs to the gods (<--plural). So you've got divine revelation to back up that statement. Anyway, good chat, and we can at least agree on that hopefully it was good for the Quiet One. I acquiesce the final word to you.
