Posts by Maximus

93

Position on College Changed?

by Maximus in

jw
friends

several have made outright statements and others have suggested that the society's negative position on higher education has changed.

'the society does not discourage higher education where i live.

' worse, 'apostates have made it all up--the society has never discouraged education.

Maximus

If you stormed out this week, just wait.

M

79

What is G-JOBBING for Bethelites?????????

by JT in

jw
friends

had enough asked :.

if you haven't already related to us the experiences at bethel that you told to your mom-in-law, (or even if you already have told us) could you tell us about what you told her.....and...what is "g-jobbing" (sorry for my naivity) .

i didn't want to take away from sl post about his mother but i thought a little insight into the world of the bethelites would be interesting this am.

Maximus

Bauerlein liberally supplied many, many new boys over a very long time with beer, even if they were underage. Everyone knew it, went from the time the Bethel family was so small everyone had to know each other. Was a hangover (sorry) from the Judge's days that this just seemed to be winked at. So many functional alcoholics, got through the day, just got wasted at night.

Before your time, metatron, there was a poor old slob named Charlie De Wilda, whom Knorr made sit in a corner for "foul language." He was upset that NHK had married but had not permitted him to do so. Really took on the President, told him lacked love, as I recall. He was punished badly in many cruel ways. Finally left, was reduced to begging for food, letters were sent out to congregations not to give him assistance. Had given his life to the bindery on the fourth floor at 117 Adams Street, slaved over machinery that no human should have to operate. Must be in the film The New World Society in Action.

He was found dead on a park bench, covered with newspapers. My roommate, who was close to him, wept for days.

Yes, some stories are not so funny. Like Richard Wheelock jumping out of a window to kill himself after deep depression. Most saw the exterior organization man, others got glimpses of a deeply introspective man who was devastated after the premature of his wife, who died as the result of the insane blood policy. Inside, I know he knew better. Cognitive dissonance? It killed him ultimately. Some years back I was looking for something, and on my screen appeared the page in Randy Watters' Bethel Chronicles that he very thoughtfully dedicated to Richard. I was deeply touched and I immediately knew that Randy was a very special person. If you haven't checked out those chronicles, you should.

Foul language and dirty stories? What irony that Swingle spoke, who had the foulest, coarsest mouth of anyone I knew at Bethel. Earthy, they called him.
Watchtower eulogy I believe said he "spoke his mind." The story may be apocryphal, but it very well could have happened. Bethel boy complains that there is too much cursing in the Ink Room. Swingle's response: "No shit!"

Farkel has some direct knowledge of Lyman too. Art Worsley's true story will wait for another day in another forum.

Maximus

7

WT May 1 & June 15, 2001

by Defender in

jw
friends

the may 1 and june 15, 2001 watchtower issues have reading articles about helping widows through their trials and look after orphans and widows in their tribulation.

both articles contain very healthful counsel, tips and recommendations to the grieving and needy and to those around them on how, and when to offer help and support.. the problem with these articles is not that the average jw or local congregation elders are not doing their part in helping out the needy.

in fact, most individual jws are as compassionate and supportive as the average person.

Maximus

This gem may have gotten lost in the scatological wars that took up lots of bandwidth.

79

What is G-JOBBING for Bethelites?????????

by JT in

jw
friends

had enough asked :.

if you haven't already related to us the experiences at bethel that you told to your mom-in-law, (or even if you already have told us) could you tell us about what you told her.....and...what is "g-jobbing" (sorry for my naivity) .

i didn't want to take away from sl post about his mother but i thought a little insight into the world of the bethelites would be interesting this am.

Maximus

About Barbara Grizzuti (Harrison), for metatron.

She had impeccable connections, as you know. Few are still alive who could verify this, but it has the ring of truth from all I know. I did note above the discussions about "better to masturbate than marry and leave the Bible House." Wish Art Worsley were still alive.

I can vouch for her accuracy on just about everything, and she was not wont to write what was untrue. Heard her on National Public Radio, suddenly opening up about being abused by her beloved father ... Awful.

M

37

Tertullian & June 15/00 WT on Blood

by hawkaw in

jw
friends

in two paragraphs in the june 15/00 wt qfr on blood, tertullian is quoted a few times in the 5th and 6th paragraphs on page 29.

( http://www.jwfiles.com/blood-wt6-15-00.htm.

i have been trying to find the exact quotes from tertullian.

Maximus

I gave up on finding the precise Watchtower quotation too. Even tried to paraphrase from the original. Not worth the effort now.

Let me tell you how it works. A quotation is dug up somewhere by a compiler or writer, gets used---and used, and used, and used. No one takes a fresh look at context or accuracy. And by dint of its having been published in The Watchtower or a bound book, a product of the spirit-anointed faithful slave, it is not checked again. When you question it at the highest level in Writing, if you are not one of the club you will receive the answer, "Did we get it right between the quotation marks?"

Funny. Freddy Franz used to privately encourage reading of the commentaries and Patristics, and I certainly know he did that with Ray, asking him to make sure of all things. I'm sure it's in Ray's book somewhere.

I locked my address because of some particularly vicious mail that I'll not go into here. Soon as I can, I'll turn it back on today. Feel free to drop me a line; I'll keep it confidential.

M

37

Tertullian & June 15/00 WT on Blood

by hawkaw in

jw
friends

in two paragraphs in the june 15/00 wt qfr on blood, tertullian is quoted a few times in the 5th and 6th paragraphs on page 29.

( http://www.jwfiles.com/blood-wt6-15-00.htm.

i have been trying to find the exact quotes from tertullian.

Maximus

I'm tied up this morning and don't have access to files, but got a phone call from someone who saw your post and suggested I check in.

Here's a searchable site from the Christian Classics Ethereal Library:
www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-03/TOC.htm

The Gorman quote was bang on too, but a horrendous misrepresentation of the truth. Not even a "one could reasonably conclude that ..." The guy says it's an ancient HUNTING RITUAL. It's been an eye-opener for those who took the time to read it; my intent was to cross the t's and dot the i's yet make it
readable. Someone asked me, Couldn't you put it in one paragraph? My answer, No, that would destroy what I've attempted to do. When the fall-out from the Dateline program begins, lots of folks will be asking more pointed questions about the blood policy.

I share what must be your delight at discovering for oneself how deceitful they are, and I confess an awful sadness I felt. Followers following followers following followers. I'm no longer in line.

Maximus
Will look forward to your sharing the results.

Edit: PS after reading the post above. If you write the Society these days, you will not be given a reference. They omit them in their publications. The writing formula is simple.
Catchy opening lines, stating an issue.
According to expert X,
Professor Y says,
and that's in agreement with Watchtower/Bible/Scriptural solution or position.
Is it not?

M

7

Finally, an interesting Christian!

by Marilyn in

jw
friends

from the australian age newspaper: .

john shelby spong, the retired episcopalian bishop who calls for a new reformation of the christian faith, was born in north carolina in 1931. he was raised, he says, in a church that taught him blacks were inferior and that segregation was the will of god, that women were second-class and did not deserve equal rights within the church, that jews were evil and responsible for killing jesus and that homosexuals were either mentally sick or morally depraved.

"i have spent my entire life getting out from under that upbringing," he says.. in 1948, he sought to involve young black episcopalians at a youth convention and was over-ruled by his bishop.

Maximus

Norm, I understand exactly where you're coming from.

I'm not going to lift a quotation and tell you what Spong bases his faith on, (you cite another, then I lob back a different quote and imply you are an idiot or otherwise less-than) because you certainly have the capacity to do that on your own. You are free to agree or disagree with what Spong or N.T. Wright or anyone else says.

I just don't want anyone to avoid looking behind Door A or Door B just because they think intelligent people have already peeked in there and have, through logic and reason, determined there is nothing worthwhile. It's about choice. My take-home message, "Get informed, take nothing for granted that you have been told."

::They seem to have totally omitted communicating this to their congregations. Because they remain as ignorant as ever.

Glad you said "seemed" because I don't usually find unfounded assertions in your posts. Walk into a mainstream, modern Lutheran, Anglican, Episcopalian or Presybterian church. You may be astonished at what is discussed. Even in some Southern Baptist churches.

Someone recently took me up on my challenge, and as luck would have it a priest matter-of-factly tossed off, "Of course we don't believe in a personal devil." Proceeded to note the book of Job was of Persian roots and barely made it into the canon; Good vs. Bad, evil god, good god dualism stuff of Zoroastrianism. Gave a polished, moving sermon on which lady scrambed to take notes. Said she learned more in a l5-minute homily/sermon that in years of Watchtower studies. Also learned that no reputable scholar believes Paul wrote the book Hebrews. And that Martin Luther had his doubts about the book of Revelation.

My line was like that to Farkel, "There is a God and she has a powerful sense of humor." Ah, serendipity.

Here's the kicker. Most just don't seem driven to convert everybody! We've been so attuned to thinking that preaching to others is the sine qua non of life ...

Most have scads of classes, not just on the Bible, but support groups for mothers, the homeless Alzheimer's caregivers. The roots of Alcoholics Anonymous are in the Episcopal Church and the Oxford Movement, and that Church has a very active Recovery Ministries for addicts. You will find kitchens busy making hot food and/or programs for the homeless, education and succor for the poor pregnant girl who is afraid and alone. I saw the budget of ONE Southern Baptist church that had earmarked $900,000 for the poor.

Within a single parish/church you will find liberals and conservatives theologically, but who are INCLUSIVE.

I've watched diametrically opposed Luke Timothy Johnson (professor at Candler Theological, Emory) duke it out with Dominic Crosson on a public platform. Neither sneered at the other, got supercilious or snide, but intensely made their points. Got off, hugged each other and went to lunch with a great bottle of wine. Genuinely care deeply for each other.

Lord, is that strange to those of us in the organization for decades or what?

Many who ask me for suggestions tell me they are angry at God, yet are chilled at the prospect of being alone in the universe, isolated, vulnerable. They want something to sustain them when they reach the point when they look at the ceiling tiles in the nursing home. Others I know have developed spirituality to a degree I envy, and it has nothing to do with Christianity per se. There is a ton of material out there. We are used to the question, "Where would we go?" Do we have to go anywhere?

We have choices.

Maximus

7

Finally, an interesting Christian!

by Marilyn in

jw
friends

from the australian age newspaper: .

john shelby spong, the retired episcopalian bishop who calls for a new reformation of the christian faith, was born in north carolina in 1931. he was raised, he says, in a church that taught him blacks were inferior and that segregation was the will of god, that women were second-class and did not deserve equal rights within the church, that jews were evil and responsible for killing jesus and that homosexuals were either mentally sick or morally depraved.

"i have spent my entire life getting out from under that upbringing," he says.. in 1948, he sought to involve young black episcopalians at a youth convention and was over-ruled by his bishop.

Maximus

Good Lord! I'm astonished. Surely you are aware Spong represents the contemporary view of a huge number of mainstream Protestants and what is taught in such major seminaries as Princeton Theological, Yale Divinity (Berkley), and so on.

I have no interest in debating this, but it does speak to what Ros is saying: So many are just not aware of what actually is taught and embraced by individuals who are not bound to a narrow, rigid fundamentalism. Many of the local stores simply don't carry contemporary other than fundamentalist, primarily because they are tied in to suppliers who recommend their stock.

Jack Spong is as fine a Christian as I've ever met, and when he speaks about his love for God and his faith, it's evident. BTW he's going to do a cyberspace column on sex. Driving conservatives nuts at the thought ...

::one wonders in vain what he bases his faith upon, and why he bothers with it.

No need to wonder in vain, Norm. He's quite clear as to what he bases his faith on. Let me take this opportunity to share with others what books are out there, for openers. I highly recommend Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism.

Why Christianity Must Change or Die: A Bishop Speaks to Believers in Exile

Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism : A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture

Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes : Freeing Jesus from 2,000 Years of Misunderstanding

This Hebrew Lord: A Bishop's Search for the Authentic Jesus

Living in Sin?: A Bishop Rethinks Human Sexuality

Here I Stand : My Struggle for a Christianity of Integrity, Love, and Equality

The Bishop's Voice : Selected Essays, 1979-1999

Resurrection : Myth or Reality? : A Bishop's Search for the Origins of Christianity

The Letters of Paul (Riverhead Sacred Text Series)
Honest Prayer

Beyond Moralism : A Contemporary View of the Ten Commandments

How a New Faith is Being Born

A New Christianity for a New World : Why Traditional Faith Is Dying and What Should Take Its Place

In the Courts of the Lord : A Gay Priest's Story

Again, this is not something I choose to debate. I see too much belittling others' longing for Something other than one can "prove," which may tend to rob others of their choice to explore.

And this is just from one robust author, who is certainly not "sadly alone."

Warmly,
Maximus

4

Jolene Chu (Researcher, Watch Tower), and her prop

by Kent in

jw
friends

[b]the watchtower do try hard to hide the painful facts about their war history.

tis is from the "researcher" jolene chu, from the watchtower society:/b].

the internet anti-fascist: sunday, 11 january 1997. ftp supplement #1 (#51): jehovah's witnesses and the nazi genocide.

Maximus

Kent, your URL above gets the following result:

tinaf51.txt>: No such file or directory

6

SCANDAL FROM GILEAD SCHOOL

by bj in

jw
friends

bill & joan cetnar, in their book, questions for jehovah's witnesses, relate an interesting case of a young thai missionary, who turned crazy during the course of gilead.

on her way back home she jumped from the boat and was alleged that she was eaten by sharks.

president knorr tried to keep it secret.. when i tried to investigate by writing to brooklyn and the bethel of thiland, none of them answered my registeried letters.

Maximus

Following is from www.disfellowshipped.com. Click on Judicial Proceedings and go to Dale Baker. (www.disfellowshipped.com/Judicia_bakers.htm) Leaving out http:// not wanting to print the entire document here.

________________
Dale: I'll tell you another story that happened at Bethel. You know Russ Kurzen? Do you know Art Barnen? [Barnett] They both worked on the Bethel reception desk. They had a sister from over in Thailand who developed a psychiatric problem while she was going to Gilead. Several times she tried to jump off the roof of Bethel. Did you know her?

Elder J: Yes, I knew her.

Dale: In the first place, they wouldn't send someone back to Thailand with her to take care of her, even though she begged for a plane ticket, or at least a companion. They sent her back by boat, by herself. She had another one of her seizures, she jumped overboard. What happened? When the word got back to Bethel and Russ Kerosene [Kurzen, transcriber's error] told somebody, he got called on the carpet and taken off his job for letting that out and letting the Bethel family know about it.
When I was at Bethel there was a young man who developed diabetes. We didn't have a doctor there, and they wouldn't send him to a doctor or to a hospital. He just got so sick he couldn't get out of bed and go to work so they decided to send him home. Some of his friends thought. "He isn't going to make it home, he has to go all the way to Seattle on a bus." The least we could do for him was to help buy him an airline ticket. So about thirty of us got together and chipped in about five bucks apiece. My roommate took it down to the Bethel office and said 'We've got a little money to put with the Society's money so Jack can have an airline ticket home. That way we know he'll get there.' And they told my roommate that he'd better get right back up there and give every penny of the money back. The Society had decided how he was going home, and we had taken up a collection; and evening that nobody's perfect. No person is perfect, that was unscriptural. Well, they took the poor kid down to the bus. He was practically in a diabetic coma; they had to put him in the bus because he couldn't figure out which one to get on. We didn't hear from him for almost a year. They picked him up in a drunk tank somewhere down in Iowa, and some police officer recognized that he was sick and put him in a hospital. He had been living on skid row for six months. His one living relative was worried sick about him, nobody knew where he was. Finally he recovered enough to write his friends that he was ok. Is that caring? And that was before the sister lumped off the ship. But it's the same story. Do they ever learn?

Elder J: There were several who came from Thailand, because I was in Thailand. There were several other sisters from Thailand in her Gilead class. Because of her condition they kept her for a number of months longer so she could rest and recuperate. I know Brother Franz was personally involved trying to help her.

Bette: But since she requested an airline ticket home, why didn't they do that? Or if they had to send her by boat, why didn't they send someone with her since she asked them to?

Elder J: I don't want to comment since I don't know all the circumstances, but I do know that it did happen because I was on the receiving end in Thailand at the time.

Bette: And then there was another case at a district assembly where babies were getting heat stroke and dying, and there were two doctors who were Witnesses working in first aid, and they went to chairman's office and asked them to please make a public announcement to the effect, "Mothers, don't leave your babies in the sun, don't let them sleep, don't leave them there. They could get seriously overheated and die." And they were told that the assembly program was too precious to be used for personal announcements.

Dale: I don't necessarily see these people as uncaring or unloving. I see a system that says that the message, the work, is more important than people.

Bette: And refuses to take responsibility, because everything is under God's direction.

________________________

This situation is well documented, many of us were acutely aware of it.
As to Ed: he was painfully aware of this and other situations, finally had a belly full. I'm not aware of any public comment.

Maximus