considering the simple fact that the watchtower society has declared the united nations an organization lead by satan, it certainly devote a lot of attention to what the un do and say.
*** w99 5/1 15 "let the reader use discernment" ***.
the watchtower definitively said: the whole tendency of the league of nations is to turn the people away from god and from christ, and it is therefore a desolating thing, the product of satan, and an abomination in the sight of god.
I say, Norm, wasn't there an experience told at all district conventions this series wherein a nice lady spent all her time in such volunteer work, even listed many of the activities noted in Awake!
And she gave it all up for --- pioneering. (Audience applauds.)
Mmmmm. But they can show this magazine to unsuspecting government officials in some country who will never suspect .....
Max
Remembering Metatron's rant ...
some of you may have already made a post about this but i have decided to post the following anyway.. the booklet - how can blood save your life?
(copyright 2000).
part 2 - bloodvital for life.
Bingo! The facts, for all to see, worth it even if only a few read only the bold.
There is an internal struggle going on about the blood doctrine; it's evolved over decades. It's morphed again, still inconsistent.
Reader, do you see the upside for the rank-and-file regarding the change in judicial policy?
Thanks, Big Raptor.
Later.
Max
some of you may have already made a post about this but i have decided to post the following anyway.. the booklet - how can blood save your life?
(copyright 2000).
part 2 - bloodvital for life.
Simons says that use of the DA category is
:: another way of disfellowshipping someone when you have not broken any rules or practised any wrongdoing but just want to get you out the way
AND they want to evade some responsibility and hopefully its consequences. The result is identical, shunning. I'm not playing with words, just trying to expose their hypocrisy. WHY they use this is important to understand.
Simon, you're a class act and greatly appreciated. This watering hole has really turned out to be extremely helpful to many, many people. My hotmail account burgeons.
Maximus
some of you may have already made a post about this but i have decided to post the following anyway.. the booklet - how can blood save your life?
(copyright 2000).
part 2 - bloodvital for life.
:: They could not pin anything on me, so they arranged a hoax meeting and read in the congo the next week that I had DAd myself, in effect lying to their own congregation.
"DAd myself." Precisely put, as usual, Jan. Typical tactics--and disgusting.
Time to put a fine point on this, relatative to blood.
Why would the Society take the trouble to overhaul its procedure, not in print, but in the way described above, with the CO reading a letter that cannot be just copied by elders? Especially when the result is the same, shunning. Distinction without a difference, right? Just another bludgeon.
Think about it. Is there a vote of elders in judicial proceedings when one unrepentantly takes a transfusion? No. (See the exact procedure, above.)
(I think warm thoughts of Friend who also once went over this repeatedly on another board to make some subtle yet devastating points about the Society's duplicity.)
Please note there are proceedings, nonetheless. Easier proceedings. No votes. Clear-cut directions.
Can you see why this use of the DA category is being termed a shortcut to shunning? While not precisely "automatic," especially not "automatic disfellowshipping," it is as close as you are going to get.
And can a JW rep look a government official in the eye and say we don't disfellowship for blood transfusion? The citizen has a choice? Not coerced? Mmmmmm?
Who may be viewed as a the legally culpable party in a wrongful death suit? (A can of worms not for this post.) Clever, these Watchtower lawyers.
There's an upside, but that will be for another discussion.
Maximus
Hey, Big Raptor. Maybe a cut and paste of the salient sections of the BMJ article would be interesting to the board?
in one or two recent threads i've seen reference to the possibility of a rising number of jw suicides being another of the organization's very dark realities about which it is vigilant in keeping concealed from its pub populace.
is there anyone reasonably informed regarding this?
is there reason to suppose the incidence ratio among jws is any higher than among any peoples/religion?
:: For those who are sincere, zealous, believers, this is the kind of complex entanglement that can ruin their lives. The mind and body can only take this for so long. Either the mind will deteriorate into a major depression or the body will deteriorate into a chronic series of illnesses.
You've just well-depicted many in the Bethel families, especially wives. And wives of circuit and district overseers. Sound familiar? Ask the physicians and others who have treated them for years. And the close friends who really know.
Behinds the facades are years of pain and frustration. And the system grinds away: "Is your faith waning? Losing the resurrection hope?"
"Put on the waiting attitude of Micah." "Wait on Jehovah."
When denial ultimately wears off and harsh reality sets in, the price is costly.
Call up and the platitudes pour: "Well, time to read the Bible daily, is it not?" "Have you prayed about the matter sufficiently?"
In another thread, I attempted to tap into areas of Nourishment for the Spirit. I am very moved at the depth and breadth of response. The human spirit can soar, fueled by the fulfillment of our inner need to know, to be understood, to love and be loved unconditionally.
And a little Mozart couldn't hurt.
Maximus
Hey, Farkel! Did you get to play that Steinway yet?
in one or two recent threads i've seen reference to the possibility of a rising number of jw suicides being another of the organization's very dark realities about which it is vigilant in keeping concealed from its pub populace.
is there anyone reasonably informed regarding this?
is there reason to suppose the incidence ratio among jws is any higher than among any peoples/religion?
I've known an extraordinary number of persons who were not simply acquaintances that have committed suicide. Part of this is my longevity in the organization, partly because I have traveled extensively and thus had more exposure. Either way, the figures are statistically off the charts.
I've discussed this at great length with two professionals who are not JWs but very familiar with their beliefs, one a psychiatrist the other Leo Booth, Episcopalian priest, addiction specialist, and author of "When God Becomes a Drug." They both agree completely with what Larc has presented. I need not repeat the dynamics, because Larc has laid them out beautifully, and LDH's list is indeed comprehensive.
I need to emphasize a point: There is a vast difference between the suicide threat or attempt as a cry for help and the obsessive, compulsive rumination that ends in death. None should dare trivialize another's pain by making an unprofessional judgement without training; please seek professional help if you or someone you love has more than just the hills and valleys of life.
My experience tells me this: The final impulsive act is almost invariably one of complete despair. The pain of hanging on has become worse than the pain of letting go. Nature itself urges, yes compels self-preservation. Thus, the person who suicides is desperately ill, by definition. S/he sees no better choice.
Family members generally tell me the deceased could see no viable solution, despite their reassurances. Most tell me there were scant signs.
Experts refer to JW "toxic faith." In my experience, the longer and more deeply the person is exposed to toxins, the more difficult the recovery. When one finds that one's basic belief system is a lie, that's bad enough. But to face the shredding of family ties may be the ultimate.
Much of Western religious thought has been shaped by a warped Augustinian view of sin and punishment that inclines toward depression. The Christian message was originally one of freedom, and joy. That's another story.
Side bar: Clinical depression is different from the normal blahs. Modern medicine has a panoply, a variety of approaches to both chemical and mental imbalance. It's not just about Prozac any more. It's okay to ask for help.
I'm thinking about so many just now. Hayden Covington's beautiful son. Richard Wheelock, the factory overseer who jumped while at Bethel. So many.
And C. Whose quiet pain upon having her children and grandchildren forever ripped from her was unknown to others; she did not show it. Until she as quietly lay in a garage and ended it all, unwittingly also ending the life of her husband who lay sleeping in the bedroom above. Numbers? They would shock and titillate. I grieve for far too many dead, and their survivors.
As to responsibility? Know what? I think Dunscot made a good point today:
::2) I think that God will hold His representatives responsible for abusing their respective offices. A proper enunciation of God's law is supposed to emanate from the mouths of God's representatives (Mal 2:7).
Amen.
Maximus
which are the most influential branch offices of jehovah's witnesses around the world?.
for some time i have been wondering whether there are tendencies toward either greater liberalism or greater conservatism among various branch committees, and whether any of this could have an impact on brooklyn's policies.. here are my guesses in order (although i can't claim any insider knowledge):.
1) united states (they've just set up their own branch committee, although presumably it will be in lockstep with...well, either the governing body or the legal department?).
Comment, you give them credit they do not deserve. Read Ray Franz about how they picked someone from the German branch for the GB. Requirement one is that you partake of the emblems. That's requirement two as well.
As to your question, I have some thoughts. But ... Pinpointing a branch with wise or progressive heads on this board would be like painting a target behind someone. They would be all over that like a fat man on a lawn chair, with an inspection visit from Executive in Brooklyn.
Once upon a time a thriving branch like Japan would be a flagship. Not today.
Would love to hear some stories from our friends in the Northwest about GB member Guy Pierce, who used to brag of careening around Seattle (?) slopes with no brakes while pioneering, under Divine protection. Real wisdom!
Ozzie, was that name McCanty or Mercante? <grin> (Hint: Italian.) "Ruled"? He should know. Long-time secretary to GB.
Seriously, Comment, it's been described as being like the old TV show where the guy spinning the plates on a stick gets one going, another starts to wobble and fall, he spins, but has to rush to another one. To go to another metaphor, squeaky wheels get grease. And hope springs eternal in places that seem to be promising ...
Maximus
some of you may have already made a post about this but i have decided to post the following anyway.. the booklet - how can blood save your life?
(copyright 2000).
part 2 - bloodvital for life.
Stay tuned, looks like the Raptor has more in store.
Farkel? In-depth? Rascal caused ME to receive a hot e-mail asking me to denounce him publicly, because he said in his post above he would take a transfusion if he could afford it. <cough>
Waiting, you are such a joy.
Had Enough, just remember it's "abstain ... from blood" and not "abstain from blood." The Devil is in the dots.
Maximus
thanks for your most recent e-mail.
will try again later.. briefly, i do disagree on some points (i am not violent though), agree on some others.
some i would prefer to discuss privately for sake of my own conscience.
I'm really glad to hear from you, for the reasons I noted. I've had some personally anguishing experiences with individuals who in the process of re-examining a long-held belief system were overwhelmed, seemingly with no way out, with tragic consequence.
Someone was kind enough to alert me to your post; I'll write privately. My hotmail account has been jammed, hard to keep it pared down to size limit. Great that you are posting here--take the best, leave the rest.
For me, it is not so much how JWs stand out from other groups, but one major concern is that admittedly fallible men are insisting they be looked on as de facto infallible even when unable to answer reasonable questions; i.e., a governing body that operates by vote, not even consensus much less unanimity, and a group of individuals who transmit that as "policy" or position.
One is told to be humble, wait on Jehovah. (Translation: wait on organizational change, a shift in the vote or external pressure that forces an issue.) Policies change; we've seen it many times over many decades. There are some policies they are insisting on today but offer no refutation for Scriptural arguments presented them, from all over the world. They just recite a policy, not even attempting to defend it. And if your conscience tells you otherwise, and you speak about it, you will face severe punishment and so will your innocent family.
There are very troubling issues over which the GB is not unified, and it is no secret that power struggles are going on despite public reassurances to the contrary. Some GB members are most unhappy. Where does individual conscience come in for us?
Just before its w 10/15/00 QFR on blood, the Society printed a very interesting article on Grew and Storrs, who learned "the truth" about Trinity and hellfire early on. Grew was a highly respected minister in the Methodist-Episcopal Church. The Watchtower says: "Finally, since no one could refute the things he was learning, George Storrs decided that he could not be faithful to God if he remained in the Methodist Church. He resigned in 1840." The article cites Charles Taze Russell's input from Storrs, and CTR's comment: "We ever sought not to be followers of men, however good and wise, but 'Followers of God as dear children.'"
We are ultimately accountable to God for the faith we embrace, for the course we take. Not to a faceless organization that is faltering.
As to Matt. 24 and 20, I had occasion to speak to the author of "Birth of the Messiah," and "Death of the Messiah," exhaustive works, just before his death. Of course, I came from the perspective and tradition of over half a century of seeing organizational edicts. Surely he would have an exhaustive answer on this subject. I asked about it with bated breath.
"The Great Command? Ah, yes. Christian evangelism. Know what that is?
That's one beggar telling another where the food is."
I got it.
Maximus
i guess even with my atheistic leanings, deep down, i knew this day would come.
i feel a bit melancholy, mildly sick, excited for the future, and out of control.. all of our apostate ramblings have had their place.
we've done all we could, we were not silent.. i'm buckled in, this earth is moving apace, it is out of my hands completely, i am at peace....yet.... the prospect of the heavens opening up on these people i spent so much time with....well, i'm crying a bit here... now.
Hey!
That's not the only crap they had laid on them at the DC!
Dang bird was just a good critic.
Max
