MDS

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  1

  The "Kingdom of God", Perhaps An Ear...

  by MDS in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the "kingdom of god," perhaps an earthly kingdom?.

  daniel 7:21, 22 says this:.

  "i kept on beholding when that very horn made war upon the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of supreme one, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.".

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• 

  MDS

  The "Kingdom of God," Perhaps An Earthly Kingdom?

  Daniel 7:21, 22

  says this:

  "I kept on beholding when that very horn made war upon the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself."

  Verses 25-27 of Chapter 7 says:

  "And he will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time. And the Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away, in order to annilihate [him] and to destroy him totally.

  "And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom, and all the rulerships will serve and obey even them."

  Also, Daniel 12:7 says:

  "And I began to hear the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he proceeded to raise his right [hand] to the heavens and to swear by the One who is alive for time indefinite: "It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish."

  The WTS contends that the situational "harrassment of the holy ones" actually occurred some years ago, yes, between the years of 1914-1918.

  But does this make sense?

  Further, doesn't the above context absolutely show that:

  (a) the kingdom's full establishment will be a future event, (Or, something that has not occurred yet thus far.)

  and

  (b) The kingdom Government itself, will be an EARTHLY Government, with the Governmental Seat of this Kingdom finding itself being situated right here upon the earth? Doesn't the context indicate that?

  In other words, the "Holy Ones of the Supreme One" establish their own "government" right here upon the earth, without anyone needing to go to heaven. No one goes to heaven, but the Kingdom and the "holy ones" of the Supreme One, establish the "Kingdom of God" right here upon the earth. Doesn't the above contect show this?

  Actually, according to the above verses, the "Kingdom Government of God," is established right here upon the earth just after the "harrassing" period of the "Small Horn." And clearly, there is no mention of a long drawn out, very much extended period of time between the "harrassing" of the Holy Ones of the Supreme One, and the time God ordains they come into possession of the "kingdom of God." -- See Daniel 7:18.

  But, according to the WTS, it has been more than 87 years since 1914, since that time the "harrassment" of the holy ones started... some 87 years?

  Where do the scriptures indicate there would be some 87 years or shall we say, an approaching 100-year period between the "war" of the "holy ones" and the "definite time for the holy ones to come into possession of the Kingdom of God"? Why would there be close to a 100 years between both events? Why would such time be alloted between the "harrassment" period of the "holy ones" and the time they take possession of the "kingdom" everlastingly? Where do the scriptures indicate this 86-year plus period of time before coming into the "kingdom" for the "holy ones of the Supreme One"?

  Daniel 7:21 shows that the "horn" makes "war" upon the "holy ones of the Supreme One." But, actually, have we seen this "war" upon these ones? Have we visualized an actual "war" upon the "holy ones" of the Supreme One?

  Obviously, according to Daniel's account, the "holy ones" of the Supreme One, did NOT come under attack between 1914-1918, because this would have meant the "kingdom of God" would have started right after that, upon earth. And we know, this did not happen at all.

  Thus based upon the above information, the doctrine of 1914 as taught and understood by JWs & WTS today, cannot be considered correct in any form or fashion. No earthly "Kingdom of God," has been established since the designated years of 1914-1918, the time when the "holy ones of the Supreme One" were supposed to be "trampled" upon and "harrassed" by God's permission. It has now been too many years passed to claim such has happened.

  Thus, this "harrassment" period of 3 1/2 years or 42 months, must be a future event. Also, the establishment of God's Kingdom upon earth too, it must be a future event as well. This 3 1/2 year period of time is mentioned several times in the Bible as being a most momentous time in scripture and Bible prophecy for God's People. Big changes occur after this period of time has occurred, where God has "given authority" for the surrounding "nations" to "act" against God's people in "war." -- Revelation 11:2; 12:6, 14; 13:5

  The "kingdom of God" itself thus, finds its membership originating upon the earth. Yes, an earthly government established right here upon earth, as the Royal Government is one that is "cut out" of a earthly "mountain." "Cut out", not with human hands, but with the hands of God, out of an EARTHLY MOUNTAIN, one that is upon this earth today. What is cut out, is at first a small "stone." A small "stone" cut out by God, of God-Selected Individuals, first grouped together as a small congregation or "Stone." These things are done, as the prophet says,

  "...Not by military force, nor by power, but by my spirit, Jehovah of Armies has said...For who has despised the day of small things?..." -- Zechariah 4:6, 10

  A small "stone" at first. But later growing, and growing more in size,into finally becoming "A Large Mountain" itself. So large a "stone" that it is "filling" the entire earth in size. And also with membership thereof possessing the "true knowledge of God," that makes finally, "true knowledge abundant" in all of the earth, as Daniel 12:4 says it would become.

  A "stone" that once reaching its full size, with the backing of God Jehovah, is capable of pulverizing all existing governments pictured by the visioned Statute, particularly the "feet" of the Statute, the "feet" of "molded clay mixed with iron", just as Daniel 2nd chapter shows.

  Daniel 2:34, 35, 44, 45 says this:

  "You kept on looking until a stone was cut out not by hands, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and of molded clay and crushed them. At that time the iron, the molded clay, the copper, the silver and the gold were, all together, crushed and became like the chaff from the summer threshing floor, and the wind carried them away so that no trace at all was found of them. And as for the stone that struck the image, it became a large mountain and filled the whole earth."

  "And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite; forasmuch as you beheld that out of the mountain a stone was cut not by hands, and that it crushed the iron, the copper, the molded clay, the silver and the gold. The Grand God himself has made known to the king what is to occur after this. And the dream is reliable, and the interpretation of it is trustworthy."
  
  

  He is telling his word to Jacob, His regulations and his judicial decisions to Israel. He has not done that way to any other nation; And as for his judicial decisions, they have not known them." -- Psalms 147:19, 20

  MDS
• 
  5

  The "Kingdom of God", Perhaps An Ear...

  by MDS in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the "kingdom of god," perhaps an earthly kingdom?.

  daniel 7:21, 22 says this:.

  "i kept on beholding when that very horn made war upon the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of supreme one, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.".

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  MDS

  The "Kingdom of God," Perhaps An Earthly Kingdom?

  Daniel 7:21, 22

  says this:

  "I kept on beholding when that very horn made war upon the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself."

  Verses 25-27 of Chapter 7 says:

  "And he will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time. And the Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away, in order to annilihate [him] and to destroy him totally.

  "And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom, and all the rulerships will serve and obey even them."

  Also, Daniel 12:7 says:

  "And I began to hear the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he proceeded to raise his right [hand] to the heavens and to swear by the One who is alive for time indefinite: "It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish."

  The WTS contends that the situational "harrassment of the holy ones" actually occurred some years ago, yes, between the years of 1914-1918.

  But does this make sense?

  Further, doesn't the above context absolutely show that:

  (a) the kingdom's full establishment will be a future event, (Or, something that has not occurred yet thus far.)

  and

  (b) The kingdom Government itself, will be an EARTHLY Government, with the Governmental Seat of this Kingdom finding itself being situated right here upon the earth? Doesn't the context indicate that?

  In other words, the "Holy Ones of the Supreme One" establish their own "government" right here upon the earth, without anyone needing to go to heaven. No one goes to heaven, but the Kingdom and the "holy ones" of the Supreme One, establish the "Kingdom of God" right here upon the earth. Doesn't the above contect show this?

  Actually, according to the above verses, the "Kingdom Government of God," is established right here upon the earth just after the "harrassing" period of the "Small Horn." And clearly, there is no mention of a long drawn out, very much extended period of time between the "harrassing" of the Holy Ones of the Supreme One, and the time God ordains they come into possession of the "kingdom of God." -- See Daniel 7:18.

  But, according to the WTS, it has been more than 87 years since 1914, since that time the "harrassment" of the holy ones started... some 87 years?

  Where do the scriptures indicate there would be some 87 years or shall we say, an approaching 100-year period between the "war" of the "holy ones" and the "definite time for the holy ones to come into possession of the Kingdom of God"? Why would there be close to a 100 years between both events? Why would such time be alloted between the "harrassment" period of the "holy ones" and the time they take possession of the "kingdom" everlastingly? Where do the scriptures indicate this 86-year plus period of time before coming into the "kingdom" for the "holy ones of the Supreme One"?

  Daniel 7:21 shows that the "horn" makes "war" upon the "holy ones of the Supreme One." But, actually, have we seen this "war" upon these ones? Have we visualized an actual "war" upon the "holy ones" of the Supreme One?

  Obviously, according to Daniel's account, the "holy ones" of the Supreme One, did NOT come under attack between 1914-1918, because this would have meant the "kingdom of God" would have started right after that, upon earth. And we know, this did not happen at all.

  Thus based upon the above information, the doctrine of 1914 as taught and understood by JWs & WTS today, cannot be considered correct in any form or fashion. No earthly "Kingdom of God," has been established since the designated years of 1914-1918, the time when the "holy ones of the Supreme One" were supposed to be "trampled" upon and "harrassed" by God's permission. It has now been too many years passed to claim such has happened.

  Thus, this "harrassment" period of 3 1/2 years or 42 months, must be a future event. Also, the establishment of God's Kingdom upon earth too, it must be a future event as well. This 3 1/2 year period of time is mentioned several times in the Bible as being a most momentous time in scripture and Bible prophecy for God's People. Big changes occur after this period of time has occurred, where God has "given authority" for the surrounding "nations" to "act" against God's people in "war." -- Revelation 11:2; 12:6, 14; 13:5

  The "kingdom of God" itself thus, finds its membership originating upon the earth. Yes, an earthly government established right here upon earth, as the Royal Government is one that is "cut out" of a earthly "mountain." "Cut out", not with human hands, but with the hands of God, out of an EARTHLY MOUNTAIN, one that is upon this earth today. What is cut out, is at first a small "stone." A small "stone" cut out by God, of God-Selected Individuals, first grouped together as a small congregation or "Stone." These things are done, as the prophet says,

  "...Not by military force, nor by power, but by my spirit, Jehovah of Armies has said...For who has despised the day of small things?..." -- Zechariah 4:6, 10

  A small "stone" at first. But later growing, and growing more in size,into finally becoming "A Large Mountain" itself. So large a "stone" that it is "filling" the entire earth in size. And also with membership thereof possessing the "true knowledge of God," that makes finally, "true knowledge abundant" in all of the earth, as Daniel 12:4 says it would become.

  A "stone" that once reaching its full size, with the backing of God Jehovah, is capable of pulverizing all existing governments pictured by the visioned Statute, particularly the "feet" of the Statute, the "feet" of "molded clay mixed with iron", just as Daniel 2nd chapter shows.

  Daniel 2:34, 35, 44, 45 says this:

  "You kept on looking until a stone was cut out not by hands, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and of molded clay and crushed them. At that time the iron, the molded clay, the copper, the silver and the gold were, all together, crushed and became like the chaff from the summer threshing floor, and the wind carried them away so that no trace at all was found of them. And as for the stone that struck the image, it became a large mountain and filled the whole earth."

  "And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite; forasmuch as you beheld that out of the mountain a stone was cut not by hands, and that it crushed the iron, the copper, the molded clay, the silver and the gold. The Grand God himself has made known to the king what is to occur after this. And the dream is reliable, and the interpretation of it is trustworthy."
  
  

  He is telling his word to Jacob, His regulations and his judicial decisions to Israel. He has not done that way to any other nation; And as for his judicial decisions, they have not known them." -- Psalms 147:19, 20

  MDS
• 
  41

  How Many IN, OUT, etc.

  by troubled in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i'm wondering how many here are "active jws," "inactive jws," "x-jws," or "never jws.".

  i don't mean to be nosy.

  i'm just wondering how many are in a situation like mine (still in, but struggling).

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  MDS

  Hi Troubled:

  I've served Jehovah for close to 50 years now...almost 40 years "IN" (raised as a child in the JW religion) and slightly over 10 years "OUT"... with close to 17 years as an "anointed" son. And, I have learned the entire distance. Actually I've found that Jehovah has provided the "answers" and more. The problem is, sometimes, we "can't handle the truth." The Real Truth. When someone gives us the truth, we refuse it. Why should Jehovah and Jesus continue to "teach" us, if we continually reject them?

  Someone said above,

  ...Slowly the realization came to me that I had based my faith on having 'knowledge' of God and his purpose. The 'knowledge' that I had was, of course, no real knowledge at all but was, instead, a rather complicated belief system designed by men. I know now that God is not about knowing him for no one can every truly know God.

  The author of these words actually spoke correctly ... that we should "base our faith upon the KNOWLEDGE OF GOD AND HIS PURPOSES." Thus, the original premise was correct.

  But, shouldn't we make every attempt to "know Jehovah"? Isn't this what Jehovah wants from us? Doesn't He take "delight" in such things? -- Jeremiah 9:23, 24; 31:34; Hebrews 8:11

  Doesn't Proverbs 2:1-5 say:

  "My son, if you will receive my saying and treasure up my own commandments with yourself, so as to pay attention to wisdom with your ear that you may incline your heart to discernment; if, moreover, you call out for understanding itself and you give forth your voice for discernment itself, if you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasure you keep searching for it, IN THAT CASE YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THE FEAR OF JEHOVAH AND YOU WILL FIND THE VERY KNOWLEDGE OF GOD."

  Realistically, this above statement, God's Word, is either true, or it is false. It is either the inspired Word of God, or it is not. It will come true for us, or it will not. The question is, have we done our part, first, searched for it as "hidden treasure" and "silver"? Have we put the Bible under a microscope...to really, really see if it is true? And did we "keep on searching for it" or did we, "Keep on seeking, keep on knocking...", as Jesus said we should. -- Matt. 7:7

  I think if we would do this, we would find the Bible to be true, as I have found it to be so, in my case.

  MDS
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  16

  Governing Body & The Borg rejected?

  by TheApostleAK in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  just watching a show with gerald flurry on it and i thought his talk was appropriate.

  it was regarding the prophecies of jeremiah re: rejection of ancient israel.. question i asked myself "could jehovah ever reject modern day spiritual israel?".

  jeremiah 31:37. hosea 9:15-17 (all their badness was in bethel...)(princes = elders)(ephraim = governing body, fds, the borg).. from theapostleak

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  MDS

  ...remember ...LATE FALL of 2001 brings:

  (a) end of my preaching good news to JWs (Israel) for 7 Years

  (b) end of 70 Years of JWs carrying Name of God upon themselves as a nation

  ...we are not many months away from this time.

  And then, all JWs, everyone single one, inside the organization or outside, will be REJECTED...officially by God. No one carrying the Divine Name or who has been baptized, will escape. No one.

  MDS

  He is TELLING HIS WORD TO JACOB, His regulations and his judicial decisions to Israel. He has NOT done that way to any other nation; and as for his judicial decisions, they have not known them..." -- Psalms 147:19, 20
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  23

  Mainstreaming and the Greatest Mystery

  by metatron in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what is the future of the watchtower society?.

  this subject is the greatest mystery of my life.

  been in the borg since infancy - my parents and.

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  MDS

  Hi Metatron:

  What is the future of the Watchtower Society?
  This subject is the greatest mystery of my life. I've
  been in the Borg since infancy - my parents and
  grandparents go 'way back ('came in
  the truth' on Studies in the Scriptures?????). I've
  studied sociology and history but still can't form
  a clear answer to the question:...How does the story end?

  ...So many Witnesses are already depressed - what will happen
  when scandal and the tidal forces of change hit them , full force,
  over the next few years?

  I think you have asked a great question. It is deep and your thoughts searching. Ardent students of the Bible, all should be asking the same question that you are at this time...Especially Jehovah's Witnesses because of our present day situation.

  If there ever was a time to "search the scriptures," ... it would be now! And all JWs, should be thinking as you are, and searching for answers.

  Perhaps, this "situation" has developed for this very reason and cause...the situation has been allowed to develop, so that we can now "show what we are made out of," show our "fabric of faith," is it genuine? Our faith, is it an undying faith in in God's Written Word, or not? This may need to be demonstrated of all of us, to God, the real judge.

  Perhaps, God expects us to sense the difficult situation we are placed in, with some serious urgency about it, and "Search for Him," indeed in such difficult times..."grope for Him", even as one "gropes" for the light switch when he walks into a pitch black room with no light present, when he is totally "in the dark." -- Acts 17:27

  Maybe God expects that of us...are we "groping" for Him, as Acts 17:27 says?

  As you have said above, the Jehovah's witnesses are in a terrible, terrible situation, really indeed, as you has eloquently explained above. A "catch 22" really.

  What do they do now?

  Surely the WTS is intrically involved...have the brotherhood placed too much faith in the WTS, the presumed FD&S, and now, this powerful entity has failed them, let them down... Now, they must demonstrate real Faith in God now. A test. ... a point that "You Know" has embraced recently.

  Still, with all of the failings to their credit, evidence is clearly suggesting, if not demanding, that they WTS IS NOT spirit-directed. The brotherhood cannot proceed with that confidence nor luxury, anymore. With all of the flip-flops, should we go to college, or not...the direction is not clear from WTS headquarters, especially with the July 2001 kingdom ministry's instructions.

  Is the organization on "Auto-Pilot"...with no one with any sense of direction, or insight at the helm? Is this the case?

  Is all of this foreseen in the scriptures? Where can we find "answers" ...Real answers about the future?

  So then, based upon your question posed above perhaps, ...it seems we are driven to a critical point, driven to ask maybe about the greatest Mystery of them all..."where is God, in all of this? How does God fit into all of this? Is He involved at all?"

  I know most on the discussion board have little belief or faith that that Jehovah God has anything to do with such a mess going in the organization or whether He is aware of it, or if He is, whether really cares one way or the other. They think He is not concerned at all where this is leading the organization, future wise...to what climactic finish. Or, how the organization will evolve or will it even crash totally.

  No man, no one among mankind really sees where this particular "situation" we are faced with today, could bring about a real cause, a real reason for Divine Intervention, the Hand of God.

  But I'm sure you remember these words, (which was the title to one of the WTS books back in 1969)

  "In the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then is finished the MYSTERY OF GOD, according to the good tidings which he declared to his servants the prophets." -- Revelation 10:7, American Standard Version.

  Really, isn't it amazing, here we are now in the year of 2001, and the Bible is just as much as "mystery" to us, as all before. And since the Bible is supposed to be the "principal" tool of the WTS, the organization itself who now know, also does not understand it, as we all suspect, proving they are not "spirit-directed" either. All of this simply means, when it comes to the future, for all practical purposes, we are left "in the dark," so far as how we are to understand God Purposes and His Word,...its a "great mystery" to mankind.

  My comment then on what you've said above is: Perhaps, your "mystery" is one in the same as the one the Bible spoke of. Sure. It is a great "mystery" to you to know where this organization is headed. A great mystery. Perhaps, this is so because the future of this organization is also tied up with God's Unrevealed Purposes for the future. It is linked with the Great Mystery of God. And if that is the case, then He must "reveal" it. And the answer must come from His Word, the real answer as to what the future holds, for the organization itself, since it could be intricately connected with God's Purposes for mankind. This could be the case, as to why this particular "situation" is such a great mystery, why the JW organization is in effect, "On Autopilot" and where this all ends. No one knows...but God. The why "answers" are not readily apparent.
  
  If we want to know then, we must do as Jesus recommended,

  Jesus said to: "keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you." -- Matt. 7:7

  Proverbs 2:4,5 says: "If you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasures you keep searching for it, in that case you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God."

  If we "keep" searching, keep knocking...we will find the "knowledge of God." God Himself will unlock this Great Mystery for us.

  The "spirit of truth" will "guide us into ALL Truth," as promised by Jesus. It will even "declare to us the things coming," such as the future. -- John 16:13

  The answers are to be found in the Bible. All of them.

  The "Great Mystery of God," can be answered by the use of God's Word, answers proceeding from God, as He reveals them to us...to "Israel."

  MDS

  He is TELLING HIS WORD TO JACOB, His regulations and his judicial decisions to Israel. He has NOT done that way to any other nation; and as for his judicial decisions, they have not known them..." -- Psalms 147:19, 20
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  42

  having fun with Robert

  by seven006 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in another thread robert (you know) and i had a connection.

  i learned that he use to roll joints with bible pages.

  i did the same as a jw teen.

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  MDS

  Hi Larc:

  MDS was disfellowshipped circa 1992. That began a seven year history of great Biblical importance. What happened at the end of the seven years was never clear to me. At some point the JWs are going to be "trampled" for three and a half years and their numbers will diminish to about 200,000. Several million are going to help heal the 200,000. That is all I can do from memory right now...Larc, the local historian.

  1. MDS voluntarily dissasociated himself -- Spring 1991

  2. Began 7-Year mission Preaching "good news" to Spiritual Israel (JWs) -- Fall 1994

  3. 7-year Preaching "good news" mission ends -- Fall 2001

  4. 70-Year Anniversary of Jehovah's Witnesses carrying God's Name ends also -- Fall 2001 (the same time) [Fall of 1931 thru Fall 2001 Total of 70 years]

  5. (a) After the 7 Year preaching assignment of bringing the "good news" to Israel (JWs) has ended and,

  (b) After 70 years of Carrying God's Name upon nation of Jehovah's witnesses, Jehovah will "dull sensibilities" of all JWs worldwide which means no one among them will respond to message if by chance they hear it after Fall of 2001 for many years. They as a nation will stay in God's disfavor for many years until He decides to "Restore" them to His favor. (undisclosed period of time.)

  And now, AFTER the fall of 2001, God moves to bring the "good news" to the "Gentiles" in fulfillment of Matt. 24:14 and Mark 13:10. These are persons who have never, known of Jehovah nor ever searched for Him before. They become a REPLACEMENT nation of all Jehovah's witnesses worldwide or Spiritual "Israel." This becomes a 18 month period or less, between Fall of 2001 and Spring of 2003, where Jehovah God will gather 200 Million Individuals from this world, who will be happy to "Wear His Name" honorably and wisely will be quite OBEDIENT TO GOD, in contrast to the nation of Jehovah's Witnesses earthwide. -- Isa. 5:26-30; 44:3-5; 65:1,2; Romans 10:19-21; 11:25, 26; Rev. 9:16-19

  This PHENOMENAL gathering of the 200 Million will in later years be known to all the world of humanity as the "Sign of the Son of Man." At God's designated time, around the time to "restore" the Woman or JWs as a repentant remnant, this large group will be presented to the world of mankind, and will "cure" or "heal" JWs as a nation. 1/3 of the brotherhood will respond and will have the "curse" removed from them, and will be permitted to "go to the trees of life," represented by the 200 million converts at that time...about 1/3 of them as a whole will be "healed" or "cured." Those who are willing to "repent" at this time. The other 2/3 will not repent, will continue to follow the WTS (revealed as Babylon the Great, by that time) but instead will receive the "mark of the beast" in strict obedience to the WTS. -- Zech. 13:8, 9; Ezekiel 47:7-12; Matt. 24:30; Rev. 9:18-21; 22:2,3

  6. The political nations will begin their "tramping" JWs worldwide, Spring 2003, after the Great War is over, and the gathering of the 200 million is up. The first 42 months will be EXTREME upon JWs...efforts made to wipe them out all together. In other words, they will no more be tolerated as a religion, when the "trampling" period begins. They will be completely OUTLAWED by the political nations earthwide! This 42 month period starts the situation, and the WTS realizes that they must "get the mark of the beast" to survive then as a religion. They will compromise very quickly into the 42 month intense persecution period. All JWs, during this time will be chased to the wilderness as Outlaws, because they are not expecting this and are not spiritually prepared to withstand such pressure from the governments. The 200 million will be expecting this and will prepare accordingly. God will preserve them and they will stand the test of time. In God's time, they act to assist the "woman" who is chased to the wilderness. But no date is revealed as the "Restoration" date for the 1/3 or the "woman" in the wilderness. -- Daniel 7:25; 12:7; Rev. 11:2; 13:5-7; 12th chapter

  Hope this helps.

  MDS
• 
  25

  You Know's Seared Conscience

  by Seeker in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  [moving this to its own thread so as to avoid hijacking the original thread to a new topic.].

  when i pointed out how you know was associating with apostates by being here, as the society has pointed out, he responded:.

  my conscience doesn't bother me.

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  MDS

  Chipster,

  ...i wonder if Jehovah and the faithful angels wept for Satan and the apostate angels when they were cast out of heaven in 1914...

  ...that's a WTS teaching that cannot be proven scripturally. Its simply not true.

  ...will jehovah weep for satan when he is finally crushed after being responsible for the death of his only begotten son?? just wondering...

  An IMPERFECT person sins...turns "apostate"...dies... you "weep"...maybe pray for them. (Like Job's advisers, and Paul's contempararies who turned apostate.)

  A PERFECT person, one who is completely free of sin and any tendency toward wrongdoing, but who consciously turns and makes a 180 degree path toward a practice of sin, like Satan (especially considering all of the harm and damage this evil critter has done to hapless millions)...I don't think so. The Lake of fire, everlasting destruction is the appropriate destination and resting place...for such a one...with of course, no "weeping" nor "praying" for him.

  He made his decision...he made his choice...

  ...my opinion...

  But, I'll tell you what...maybe you should PRAY FOR SATAN, and WEEP for him... maybe the two of you can become "friends" and maybe Satan will give you part of his "kingdom" to rule. However, after "weeping" and "praying" for him, still, he may ask you to "bow down" and do an "act of worship" toward him...although he did appreciate the "weeping" and genuine concern you've shown him...but you know, business is business. -- Luke 4:6,7

  Something tells me you didn't think I would respond...did you?

  MDS

  Proverbs 26:4,5 -- "Do not answer anyone stupid according to his foolishness, that you yourself also may not become equal to him. Answer someone stupid according to his foolishness, that he may not become someone wise in his own eyes."
• 
  22

  For JWs: Proof! --Jesus' Return In First Century!

  by bjc2012 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  these words were translated as either presence [parousia], coming [echomai] or arrival [eltho] in the new world translation.

  but all we are saying is that the word ...can, can, can mean "coming", a simple "coming" of a person.

  we remember jesus christ made an initial visit, or had a first coming, to inspect the temple for god, as the messenger of the covenant.

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  MDS

  You Know:

  Your error is in assuming that the governments refer to the present human governments. In fact it doesn't mention HUMAN governments at all. That is something of your own contrivance. Paul spoke of the wicked cosmocrats as the real unseen government and authorities, and also death and sin are referred to as kings that have ruled over mankind. So it is that governing authority of the demons and sin and death that is gradually brought to nothing by Jesus' rule. You are much mistaken. ... You Know

  You Know, you have said...

  "It is the governing authority of the demons...that is gradually brought to nothing by Jesus' rule."

  ...the Governing Authority and power of Satan, that must be gradually, gradually removed by Jesus during the 1,000 year reign of peace. Jesus takes this away...gradually...Satan's Governing Authority.

  And that's the best you can do, man!?!

  What?!?

  C'mon, You Know, ... I know you can do better than that...

  hmmmmmm.....

  Thus, it takes 1,000 years of Jesus' reign to remove, "gradually" the "governing authority" and power of Satan, even though we know Satan and his Demons will be in a death-like state in the abyss, the whole time.

  Now, if the human governments are destroyed at "Armageddon," all of them, and Satan and his Demons are in the abyss of inactivity for 1,000 years during the entire millenial reign...then, what in the world is Jesus removing -- gradually, You Know?

  What?

  I can see the brothers now at the door when asked this question,

  "Why, Jesus is removing Satan's "governing authority" thru out the entire 1,000 year reign...ever so "gradually," even though Satan is fast asleep in the abyss. But Jesus is really removing that "governing authority" of Satan during the 1,000 year reign."

  What an answer!

  That is what you have just said.

  Now that makes no sense to NO ONE...not even you, You Know. Not even you.

  Now here is the Watchtower Society's Official viewpoint of the "governments, authorities and powers" that must be "brought to nothing" by Jesus as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:24. The article answers once and for all the question whether they are to be viewed as "human" governments, authorities, and powers to be removed by Jesus, "at the end."

  After citing 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, they state clearly

  "All government and authority and power contrary to Christ's kingship will be eliminated." -- See November 1, 1952 Watchtower page 670, par. #4

  Do you think they were referring to human "governments, authorities, and powers" or not at 1 Corinthians 15:24?

  I'll let you be the judge of that...

  Take Care,

  MDS
• 
  22

  For JWs: Proof! --Jesus' Return In First Century!

  by bjc2012 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  these words were translated as either presence [parousia], coming [echomai] or arrival [eltho] in the new world translation.

  but all we are saying is that the word ...can, can, can mean "coming", a simple "coming" of a person.

  we remember jesus christ made an initial visit, or had a first coming, to inspect the temple for god, as the messenger of the covenant.

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• 

  MDS

  You Know:

  I only read down to a certain point on your post, but that was far enough for me. You are way out in left field as far as your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15. The "end" that Paul was talking about is not the end of this system of things, but rather the end of Christ's 1,000-year kingdom. The Watchtower certainly doesn't teach that. Paul plainly said that the "end" is when Christ hands over the kingdom to Jehovah. You obviously are much confused. / You Know

  And you are in "right field,"....huh?...following the WTS thoughts on these matters...is that so?

  ...are you really, on safe ground, You Know?

  Lets reason on the matter...

  So, You Know, as you said above and as the WTS teaches on the matter, if the "end" is the end of the millenial reign of 1,000 years of peace, if that is the "end" Paul is referring to, then, that would mean Jesus is going to destroy all of human governments "AT THE END" of the millenium. Is that what the WTS teaches, or is that what you teach, personally? Which?

  If the "end" Paul refers to, is the "end" of the millenial reign, the one referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:24 where Paul says:

  "NEXT THE END, when he [Jesus] hands over the kingdom to his God and Father..."

  This is the "end of the millenium", You Know?

  You must be joking...

  You and WTS are very confused here...it is a ridiculous assumption.

  The "End" here Paul is referring to clearly, obviously, literally means the "END" of all human ruled earthly systems...that's it. That's all it can mean. It cannot the "end of the millenium" as you and the WTS have suggested, since Paul includes human "governments, authorities" and "rulerships" being "brought to nothing." And that certainly DOES NOT occur at the "end" of the millenium, the 1,000 year reign of peace.

  You and the ill-informed WTS are much mistakened...

  Please listen and learn for once in your life...pleaseeeee

  JESUS PERFORMS 2 (TWO) GREAT THINGS BEFORE TURNING OVER THE "KINGDOM" -- 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

  Paul says there are 2 (two) things that happen, just before Jesus "hands the kingdom over to His Father and God." These 2 (two) events happen IN SUCCESSION, one after the only...Jesus "rules UNTIL" these 2 (two) things happen. Then, his rulership is interrupted and handed back over to Jehovah God, the bible says. Those 2 (two) things are:

  1 Corinthians 15:24-26:

  "Next, the end [accomplished end, Greek "Telos" NWT footnote] when he hands over the kingdom to His God and Father,

  (1) when he has BROUGHT TO NOTHING ALL GOVERNMENT AND ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER. For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet

  (2) As the LAST ENEMY, DEATH IS TO BE BROUGHT TO NOTHING." -- 1 Corinthians 15:24-26

  So, Paul says there are 2 (two) very important things that must be "brought to nothing" before Jesus can conclude his heavenly "rulership." And they are,

  1) ALL GOVERNMENT AND ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER...brought to nothing.

  And when does this occur...before the millenium or after?

  Answer: BEFORE the millenial reign of Peace starts.

  We all agree here, I think.

  And Jesus also bring to nothing,

  2) ADAMIC "SIN" & "DEATH", UNINTENTIONAL "SIN" & "DEATH" INHERITED FROM ADAM ...brought to nothing -- Jesus removes this tendency completely, the tendency to sin, from sinful mankind and performs a massive, earthwide resurrection of the dead as the Bible has promised for many, many years now. Jesus brings an end to "ADAMIC DEATH by performing a ONETIME, WORLDWIDE EARTHLY RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD FOR MANKIND.

  These 2 (two) events, all occur BEFORE the 1,000 reign of peace begans, just as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

  DANIEL GIVES US THE ALL-IMPORTANT SEQUENCE

  To back this position up, Daniel 11:44 thru 12:3 shows the chronological order of things, as Jesus carries them out, these two events that CANNOT BE SEPARATED, as in one event happens now, and the other event happens LATER...a thousand years later!...this is stupid, but is what the WTS teaches on the matter.

  The WTS separates ... yes...separates the events as happening close to 1,000 years apart. The time Jesus destroys human governments and the complete removal of "Adamic Sin" and "Adamic" Death...separated by close to 1,000 years.

  This is NOT what Paul said on the matter. The book of Daniel helps us here.

  1) First the destruction of all earthly governments, the "King of North" and supporters face off God's Earthly Kingdom Government as represented upon the earth, now a "restored" Israel, renovated and re-energized, refreshed with God's Holy Spirit, the irrepressible "Mountain of Decoration," (take note...no longer a mere "land of Decoration, but much elevated now to God's favor and given God's protection) a people (restored Israel) now fully under God's protection and blessings, now Jesus acts...he completely DEFENDS and DESTROYS all human governments that faced off "Israel," that attack in UNPROVOKED fashion, those that have "planted their palatial tents between God's People and the "Great Sea," to trap them. They are now, rightfully, destroyed by Jesus, for their unprovoked attack...just like described by the attack of "Gog of Magog," in Ezekiel, the prophet, ...and now we can witness the most momemtous event itself,

  2) Secondly a massive earthwide resurrection to earthly human life, where Jesus raises "the dead" to PERFECTION in human form. No more "Adamic Sin" since the "dead" are raised as Perfect Human creatures with no trace of "sin" in them at all, completely perfect the same as Adam BEFORE he was tested. As Daniel 12:2 says,

  ...there will be man of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches [and] to indefinitely lasting abhorrence."

  The WTS calls the above, A "spiritual resurrection" ... that's right, a "spiritual resurrection" ... huh???

  Do you believe that, You Know?

  Do you?

  That would be complete stupidity!

  3) Thirdly, Daniel 12:3 shows what happens next, AFTER the Grand Earthy Resurrection Jesus has been performed by saying,

  "And the ones having insight [holy ones of the Supreme One] will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars TO TIME INDEFINITE, EVEN FOREVER."

  They "shine" forever, and ever. Their "rulership," then does not come to an "end," since they inherit an "indefinitely lasting rulership," -- one that "will not be passed on to others" and one "that will not be brought to ruin" at any time. This kingdom lasts FOREVER! It takes over earth's affairs and "rules" forever and ever. -- See Daniel 2:44; 7:13, 27.

  Among those "dead" raised to life are those who have not been "tested" at all by Satan the Devil. These ones must be "tested" AT THE END OF THE 1,000 year reign of peace.

  THE TESTING AND RE-TESTING OF THE "GREAT CROWD"

  The WTS has said ALL, that's all of those who live thru the 1,000 reign of peace, including the "Great Crowd" must be tested AGAIN, at the end of the 1,000 year reign of peace. Which means, some from among the "Great Crowd" could indeed fall, lose their lives at the final test at the end of the 1,000 year reign of peace, when Satan is let out.

  The "Great Crowd" has already been tested! God has declared them righteous! They stand before God, clean, pure, having their "robes washed in the blood of the lamb," completely acceptable to God, having faced Satan on his own "turf" and have come off victorious! -- See Revelation 7:9-17

  To make them, the "Great Crowd" of earthly survivors, face "Satan" again, to be RETESTED...at the end of the 1,000 year reign of peace would NOT BE FAIR AT ALL!

  The WTS' way of understanding this is completely wrong...totally unfair...the thought, the teaching is totally absurd even!

  Jehovah God is smarter than that...

  The "Great Crowd" are said in the bible to have "GAINED SALVATION" from Almighty God and the Lamb. But the WTS has said No! They have NOT gained "salvation" at all. This is so because they much be Re-tested by Satan at the "end of the 1,000 year reign of peace." They must be "retested" and they also "FALL" to the antics of Satan too... They die everlastingly, those of the "Great Crowd," because they must be tested AGAIN...the WTS has said.

  But, Revelation 7:10 records the "Great Crowd" as saying, yes, "crying out," over and over and over again...

  "And they {Great Crowd) keep crying out with a LOUD VOICE...SALVATION WE OWE to our God..."

  How can they OWE "SALVATION" to God, if they are completely destroyed by God Himself, at the end of the 1,000 year reign of peace, after Satan Re-Tests them again?

  How could such a possibility even exist for them, namely, the "Great Crowd" that have been given "Salvation" by the Mighty Hand of God. How can one explain such a twisted way of thinking, I ask?

  Truly, the "Great Crowd" have NOT gained any "salvation" at all! -- at least they way you, You Know, and the WTS thinks...

  But think, You Know, how can the "Great Crowd" ever be said under inspiration to have gained "SALVATION" ... how, You know?

  Revelation 7:16,17 says,

  "They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes."

  And then Satan is let loose...they follow Satan and are "destroyed" forever by God...

  This is a distinct possibility, as taught by the WTS and of course, yourself, You Know.

  But, does this make any sense at all to a reasoning person, a rational person? This teaching, this, heartless way of thinking. Does it really make sense at all? -- See Romans 12:1.

  Now what makes more sense is to think that Satan is ONLY PRESERVED for the final "test" ONLY for those who are among the resurrected "dead" that have never, ever faced him before as devoted servants of God, fully equipped with the "knowledge of the contents of the scrolls," now, at the end of the 1,000 year reign of peace, and can be fully "tested" by Satan and his Demons, to prove them worthy of the privilege of "going to the trees of life," or the title of EVERLASTING LIFE. This is what is referred to at Revelation 20:5 when it says:

  "(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)"

  The resurrected "dead" in God's eyes, did not come to have the TITLE OF EVERLASTING, or the "gift of everlasting life," until AFTER being "tested" by Satan, at his release from the abyss, at the end of the 1,000 year reign of peace.

  After this critical "testing" by Satan, and if they stay loyal to God and his Righteous Kingdom Government, the resurrected "dead" could now be said to have gained "life" in the fullest sense of the word, EVERLASTING LIFE and the title and right to go to the "trees of life," ... a precious privilege we recall, DENIED Adam because of his sin while in perfection before God, Jehovah. Adam was never permitted to "go to the trees of life" and "live forever." Because he failed...he failed the "test" of Satan, while in perfection. Simple. -- Genesis 3:22-24

  Remember, the WTS separates the events mentioned above namely saying that Jesus destroys all human "Governments" earthwide BEFORE the 1,000 millenial reign of peace. The first part mentioned above.

  Then, the WTS separates the second important event, the removal of "death", Adamic death, mankind's great enemy by saying it occurs only DURING the 1,000 year reign of peace. And in so doing, they confuse the situation everyone alive must be "tested" AGAIN, again at the end of the 1,000 year reign of peace.

  This is completely stupid. Why should God do such a completely stupid thing?

  No, he wouldn't.

  Satan is only allowed to live and be preserved till the end of the 1,000 year reign, ONLY to "test" the UNTESTED before God...the resurrected "dead" have never, ever faced Satan in the first place. The ones who have finally come to understand the contents of the newly opened "scrolls" and now have learned to live by them. These ones, from among the "dead" that are raised by Jesus, are now in a position to be "tested" by the Great Tempter, the Great "Tester," Satan the Devil and his "demons."

  The destruction of all human governments and the resurrection of the dead are going to happen in close succession, in this order as a "one-two" punch action of Jesus. These final two things happen one after the other and cannot be separated as having happened DURING THE COURSE of the 1,000 year reign. Jesus Christ does these things BEFORE the 1,000 reign even begin.

  In this way, Jesus' last great acts, LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD for all humans who are left on earth after the destruction of all human governments upon earth...they are all now perfect, completely sinless (including those who are alive to see this situation occur, they are given perfection instantly while alive on earth).

  As Isaiah 33:24 says of that time,

  "And no resident will say: 'I am sick.' The people that are dwelling in the land will be those pardoned for their error."

  After Jesus has done all of this, He "hands the kingdom over to His God and Father."

  The 1,000 year reign of peace can now begin...with the entire human population alive upon earth, free of all human rule and rulerships, where the recently crowned "Son of Man" (the "mystery" rider of the "White Horse," of Revelation 6th chapter) and his associate rulers, the "holy ones of the Supreme One," the ones that Daniel 12:3 speaks of, can now "shine brightly as the Sun."

  Just as Daniel 7:25-27 shows, AFTER Jesus has removed ALL HUMAN GOVERNMENTS and "ADAMIC DEATH," then, they rule unobstructed, free of human inference in peace...total peace. The "holy ones of the Supreme One" and the "Son of Man", rule now, not only for the 1,000 year period of peace over the earth completely, but their "rule" will have no end at all, they rule till "time indefinite," or forever more...Their rulership shall never be "brought to ruin" as Daniel 2:44 shows.

  Daniel 7:13, 14 & 25-27 says it all,

  "I kept on beholding int he visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin"

  ...and verses 25-27 of Daniel 7 says:

  "And he will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time. And the Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away, in order to ANNIHILATE [HIM] and to DESTROY [HIM] TOTALLY. And the king and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens WERE GIVEN TO the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an INDEFINITELY LASTING KINGDOM, and all the rulership will serve and obey even them."

  Jesus Christ has been God chief Ruler and King ever since he was "declared a Son" of God, at his spiritual resurrection to heavenly life in the first century, as Romans 1:4 clearly brings out. On that "day," he was "Declared God's Son", Declared or pronounced victorious, completely and was made, or "installed" as king in the heavens -- on that "day." -- Psalms 2;6,7

  Just as Jesus said to his disciples, and as recorded at Matthew 28:18, AFTER being raised from the dead,

  "...ALL AUTHORITY has been given me in heaven and on the earth."

  This verse is clear...Jesus was given ALL AUTHORITY in the first century at his resurrection. But the WTS says no...Jesus didn't have it. But the Bible says Jesus had it, had it ALL, in the first century. Hebrews 2:8 says for our benefit:

  "All things you subjected under his [Jesus'] feet. For in that he subjected all things to him [God] left nothing that is not subject to him [Jesus]. Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him;"

  Yes, as Paul said, "ALL THINGS", and that's "ALL THINGS" are "subject" to Jesus, right now, as we speak. And has been so, whether the WTS and you You Know want to believe it, yes, ever since the first century, during Paul's day. ... But, "we do not yet see all things in subjection to him,"... we do not see the "subjection" yet...its not visible to us, his power, his authority, Jesus' complete authority that has been given him since he was righteously "declared a Son of God." That authority, that power, is not visible to us puny humans, yet. But that will change shortly too.

  Amen.

  Therefore, Jesus could not in any way, be the future "rider of the white horse," the mysterious "rider" who gets a "crown" in the future, or even since the first century, as the WTS teaches. No he cannot. Jesus does not receive a "crown" [and not a "Diadem" of rulership), a wreaf, as the Greeks say, a "Stephenos," as one would get when he wins a mere race or something...a wreaf of victory, from Jehovah in 1914...that is ridiculous.

  Neither does Jesus receive "governmental authority" over ALL NATIONS during the time the powerful, earthly "beast" with "ten horns" goes about his "time, times and half a time", his rampage, his God-ordained 42-months [3 1/2 years] of Harrassing the "holy ones of the Supreme One," ... something that has not even occurred yet. This is a future event. -- Daniel 7:7-27; Revelation 11:2; 13:5-7

  So, then how could Jesus Christ be the "Son of Man" who is given an "indefinitely lasting kingdom", a "kingdom that will not be brought to ruin," ever...ever. Jesus Christ DOES NOT RULE FOREVER... no, he does not, the Bible clearly says.

  Jesus Christ, after destroying all human governments on earth, and performing the earthwide resurrection of the "dead," actually, yes..."TURNS THE KINGDOM OVER TO HIS GOD AND FATHER," as 1 Corinthians 15:24 clearly says. We cannot get around this. Jesus rulership STOPS! Yes, Jesus only "rules UNTIL"..."UNTIL," [Adamic] death is removed...as 1 Corinthians 15:25, 26 says:

  "For he [Jesus] must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing."

  MDS

  PS: ...okay, okay, okay, at your request, Larc & Ianao...I decided to honor your wishes and return briefly, only to set this matter (and this WTS apologist) straight.

  Take care. (Don)
• 
  25

  You Know's Seared Conscience

  by Seeker in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  [moving this to its own thread so as to avoid hijacking the original thread to a new topic.].

  when i pointed out how you know was associating with apostates by being here, as the society has pointed out, he responded:.

  my conscience doesn't bother me.

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  MDS

  You Know,

  I don't suppose you have ever read the book of Job? Job conversed for days with his apostate accusers; round after round after round; argument and counter-argument. He would make a speech, then his accusers would counter; then Job would respond to their argument. God didn't condemn Job for that. In fact, the whole thing took place by God's allowance.

  Also, lets remember that at the end of the "discussion" between Job and his "ill-advised" Advisers, Jehovah required Job to "pray" for them, so that they could regain their spiritual "relationship" with God.

  Do you do this each night, for your "apostate" brothers?

  Job 42:8 says in part,

  "...and Job my servant WILL HIMSELF PRAY FOR YOU. His face only I shall accept so as not to commit disgraceful folly with you, for you have not spoken concerning me what is truthful, as has my servant Job." -- Job 42:8 NWT

  Despite all of the venomous poison you spew out here daily against your arch "enemies" the "apostates," still, are you willing to do the same for your "apostate" opponents here -- namely pray for them, just as your heavenly Father, Jehovah God recommended to Job? (Remember, Job is the example you chose to speak of to describe your actions on this board.)

  In fact, are you doing that now...praying for your "apostate" enemies, that they will learn the truth, and repent?

  Further, do you "weep for your enemies", for the "apostates" on this board as you understand them to be & as you regularly call them, just as Paul practiced during his day for his spiritual "enemies"? Those who were truly "apostate" during his day. "Weep for them."

  Philippians 3:18 says,

  "For there are many, I used to mention them often but now I mention them also with weeping, who are walking as the ENEMIES OF THE TORTURE STAKE OF THE CHRIST,"

  Do you do this, following Paul's example?

  Just wondering...

  MDS