bjc: I appreciate your response to my post. You've made a very important point concerning 'nursing' and healing. We are both agreed that the F&DS performs a service of care for those who need it. The 'body of Christ' as slaves of God and hence members of his 'household', I believe is in view here, so any healing done is on their behalf. Although I am very careful about applying ancient prophecies regarding literal Israel to the modern day - not 'going beyond the things that are written', I do think that this scripture at least sums the type of 'care' that would be given:
"Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and ministers shall govern with justice; every one of them shall be like a refuge from gales, a shelter from rainstorms; like brooks of water in a desert, like the shade of a massive rock in a languishing land." - Isaiah 32:1 & 2 (Tanakh The Holy Scriptures - JPS)
This has often been applied by JWs to elders. As I said in my first post, an 'elder' is not an elder simply by appointment (i.e. being given a label), but by his spiritual qualifications which include a Christ-like attitude and conduct that becomes a Christian. Of course from a scriptural point of view, simply being able to teach the scriptures does not make one an 'elder'.
Kind regards.
NewWay
JoinedPosts by NewWay
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"The Faithful & Discreet Slave" -...
by NewWay in"the faithful and discreet slave" - an explanation .
the following examination and observations concerning "the faithful and discreet slave" are offered for consideration.
i am aware that it differs from other explanations, so it is understood that the reader may differ in his/her conclusions.
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NewWay
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A Quartet Of Questions For You Know...
by hillary_step ingiven your reaction to mr. andersons letter of resignation recently posted to this board, which seemed sympathetic, i would like to ask four questions of you, which of course you are at liberty not to answer.
1 ) how do you personally feel about the fact that the wts is now moving to disfellowship mr. anderson for writing that letter?.
2) if mr. anderson were to begin posting to this board, how would you view him?.
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NewWay
"You know the Bible says, 'Do not go beyond the things that are written.' We don't go beyond the things that are written." - Ted Jaracz
Oh, really?! -
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A Quartet Of Questions For You Know...
by hillary_step ingiven your reaction to mr. andersons letter of resignation recently posted to this board, which seemed sympathetic, i would like to ask four questions of you, which of course you are at liberty not to answer.
1 ) how do you personally feel about the fact that the wts is now moving to disfellowship mr. anderson for writing that letter?.
2) if mr. anderson were to begin posting to this board, how would you view him?.
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NewWay
Jack2, you've nailed the thing on the head. What I said was that the NT does not give Christians an exergisis rule that they can use as a modus operandum. Whatever is not in the scriptures by way of 'greater fulfillment' application is purely a personal interpretation.
Regards. -
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"The Faithful & Discreet Slave" -...
by NewWay in"the faithful and discreet slave" - an explanation .
the following examination and observations concerning "the faithful and discreet slave" are offered for consideration.
i am aware that it differs from other explanations, so it is understood that the reader may differ in his/her conclusions.
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NewWay
Plmkrzy: It's not something that I've considered in some time. I take the view that although I've been a Bible student since the year dot, I should always be open to others' views. One should always keep a humble outlook and be willing to learn. However, 'off the top of my head' (this view may very well change!). At Revelation 6:9-11, it describes 'souls' under the altar who had obviously met a martyr's death. Those Christian 'souls' were asking 'how long' it would be before God avenged their death. This I see as being before the 'master' Jesus returns. So it may be that the first-fruits represents the first converts to Christianity in the first few centuries, a time that saw many Christians losing their lives for their faith. That of course is only an opinion. I think you will find that I am quite teachable, so please if you have some difference of view (even scriptural evidence) please feel free to share it!
Kind regards. -
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"The Faithful & Discreet Slave" -...
by NewWay in"the faithful and discreet slave" - an explanation .
the following examination and observations concerning "the faithful and discreet slave" are offered for consideration.
i am aware that it differs from other explanations, so it is understood that the reader may differ in his/her conclusions.
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NewWay
"The Faithful And Discreet Slave" - An Explanation
The following examination and observations concerning "the faithful and discreet slave" are offered for consideration. I am aware that it differs from other explanations, so it is understood that the reader may differ in his/her conclusions. This is a lengthy post I know - I assure you it is not a 'cut and paste' job. There is much ground to cover, so please be patient. Where Does The Term "Faithful And Discreet Slave" Come From?
Jesus Christ gave a parable in which a 'slave' (or, 'servant') was designated 'faithful' and 'discreet' (or, 'wise'). This parable also mentions a 'slave' (or, 'servant') who was 'evil' (or , 'wicked'). In order to even begin to understand this parable it is necessary to read the two versions of it as they appear in the New Testament. A rendering into modern English of these two passages of Scripture is given below.
" Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath set over his household, to give them their food in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, that he will set him over all that he hath. But if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord tarrieth {or, delays}; and shall begin to beat his fellow-servants, and shall eat and drink with the drunken; the lord of that servant shall come in a day when he expecteth not, and in an hour when he knoweth not, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth." - Matthew 24:45-51 (American Standard Version)
"And Peter said to him, Lord, are these words said to us only, or to all men [Greek = 'pros pantas' = literally, 'to all'] ? And the Lord said, Who then is the wise and responsible servant whom his lord will put in control of his family, to give them their food at the right time? Happy is that servant who, when his lord comes, is doing so. Truly I say to you, he will put him in control of all his goods. But if that servant says to himself, My lord is a long time coming; and goes about giving blows to the men-servants and the women-servants, feasting and taking overmuch wine; The lord of that servant will come at a time when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not ready for him, and he will have him cut in two and will give him his part in the fate of those who have no faith; And the servant who had knowledge of his lords desires and was not ready for him and did not do as he was ordered, will be given a great number of blows; But he who, without knowledge, did things for which punishment is given, will get only a small number of blows. The man to whom much is given, will have to give much; if much is given into his care, of him more will be requested. " - Luke 12:41-48 (The Bible In Living English) Notes On The Parable 1. Before Jesus begins, the apostle Peter asks him if the previous parable concerning "those slaves" (Greek = "hoi douloi ekeinoi") meant "to us", or "to all". It should be remembered that Jesus' audience at the time consisted of "the crowd" (Luke 12:1) and "his [i.e. Jesus'] disciples" (Luke 12:1). Throughout the discourse, he speaks both to the crowd and to the disciples, so it seems reasonable to suggest that Peter was making a distinction between everyone there and just the disciples.
2. Luke's account uses a more specific word for 'slave' than Matthew's does. The Greek word 'oikonomos' appears in the original language text. This word means 'steward' or one who cares for the interests of the household. It is not only a 'position' within the household, but also a responsibility.
3. At the beginning of the parable the 'master' or 'lord' of the household appoints the 'slave' over one specific area of oversight, that which relates to the feeding of the members. In Matthew's account, those given food are spoken of as (in the above Bible translation) the 'family'. The Greek word used here is 'oiketeias' which is understood to mean a 'body of servants' (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon), so the word 'family' could tend to mislead. In fact, Luke's account uses the Greek term 'tes therapeias' which has the sense of one who cares for someone/something, hence the definition 'domestics' (Strong's Concordance). So the 'slave' is put in charge, not of the other servants, put in the administration of food to them.
4. If the 'slave' was 'faithful' to his first assignment, then the 'master' would put him "in charge of all his possessions" (Luke 12:45). This would take place when the 'master' had 'arrived' (Greek = 'elthon'; note that this is different from 'parousia', which means 'presence').
5. The Greek of the first few words of Luke 12:43 - "ean de eipe ho doulos ekeinos" ("but if that slave") make it clear that a new 'slave' character is not being introduced. It is the same 'slave' being addressed, but showing a different outcome "if" he is not 'faithful'. Views From The Early Church 'Fathers'
Who did the early Christians understand to be the 'faithful and discreet slave'? Well, the only apparent testimony we have that comes close to early Christian belief outside of what the Bible tells us is that found within the works of the Church 'Fathers'. These people had not only accepted the Christian faith and become believers, but they put pen to paper in order to write about that faith. The earliest writers in this category that make any comment about the parable are Irenaeus (c. 120-202 C.E.) and Tertullian (c. 145-220). Below are reproduced relevant extracts.
"Such presbyters {or, elders} does the Church nourish, of whom also the prophet says: 'I will give thy rulers in peace, and thy bishops in righteousness.' Of whom also did the Lord declare, 'Who then shall be a faithful steward (actor), good and wise, whom the Lord sets over His household, to give them their meat in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.' Paul then, teaching us where one may find such, says, 'God hath placed in the Church, first, apostles; secondly, prophets; thirdly, teachers.' Where, therefore, the gifts of the Lord have been placed, there it behoves us to learn the truth, [namely,] from those who possess that succession of the Church which is from the *apostles, and among whom exists that which is sound and blameless in conduct, as well as that which is unadulterated and incorrupt in speech. For these also preserve this faith of ours in one God who created all things; and they increase that love [which we have] for the Son of God, who accomplished such marvellous dispensations for our sake: and they expound the Scriptures to us without danger, neither blaspheming God, nor dishonouring the patriarchs, nor despising the prophets." - Irenaeus Against Heresies (Book 4, chap. 26, para. 5 - Page 498 of Volume 1 of "The Ante-Nicene Fathers) - *Editor's footnote: [Note the limitation: not the succession only, but with it (1) pure morality and holiness and (2) unadulterated testimony. No catholicity apart from these]
"When, therefore, Peter asked whether He had spoken the parable 'unto them, or even to all,' He sets forth for them, and for all who should bear rule in the churches, the similitude of stewards. That steward who should treat his fellow-servants well in his lord's absences, would on his return be set as ruler over all his property; but he who should act otherwise should be severed, and have his portion with the unbelievers, awhen his lord should return on the day when he looked not for him, at the hour when he was not aware - even that Son of man, the Creator's Christ, not a thief, but a Judge." - Tertullian Against Marcion (Book 4, chap. 29 - Page 398 of Volume 3 of "The Ante-Nicene Fathers)
Scriptures Referred To In These Church Fathers' Quotes
"And for brass I will bring thee gold, and for iron I will bring thee silver, and instead of wood I will bring thee brass, and instead of stones, iron; and I will make thy princes peaceable, and thine overseers righteous." - Isaiah 60:17 (Greek Septuagint Version - English Translation by Brenton)
"And those whom God has appointed in the Church are, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers; after them, miraculous powers, then gifts of healing, helpful acts, guidance, various kinds of tongues." - 1 Corinthians 12:28 (New Jerusalem Bible)
"Remember them which have the rule over you (Greek = *'hegoumenon humon' = 'leading you'), who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation (Greek = 'anastrophes' = 'way of life')." - Hebrews 13:7 (Authorised Version)
*Note on 'rule': From 'hegeomai' which can mean 'a guide', or someone who leads others along a particular path, as well as a 'leader' or 'ruler'. Interestingly, Matthew 23:10 uses the Greek word 'kathegetai', which according to Vine's Expository Dictionary means "properly a guide". Based on what Jesus said in this scripture from Matthew's gospel, it is evident that he did not intend for any of his disciples to "rule over" others in an authoritarian way. Manifestations Of 'The Faithful And Discreet Slave'
According to Irenaeus, there were three manifestations of the 'steward'. The scripture (quoted above) he points to defines these as apostles, prophets, and teachers.
An apostle was one who was 'sent forth'. In broad terms this would include those who engaged in missionary work (e.g. the apostle Paul) and others who had specific assignments to preach in various places. In the more limited sense, we tend to think of the apostles directly commissioned by Jesus Christ himself. These apostles formed the backbone of the fledgeling Christian congregations and we can regard them, along with Jesus Christ, as being like foundation stones of the 'Church' of Christ (compare Revelation 21:14). Since the Bible does not proclaim a doctrine of 'apostolic succession', then the apostleship - in this sense of the word - would be of short duration. The special work of the apostles was to produce a rock solid foundation for Christianity.
Although when we speak of prophets we tend to think of someone who predicts events that will happen in the future, the Greek word literally means someone who "speaks forth or openly", "a proclaimer of a divine message" (Vine's). However, there was evidently something more to Christian prophets than simply men and women who spoke about God. Prophetic utterances were a 'gift of the Spirit', and one that was not given to every Christian. Eventually, as indicated by the apostle Paul, the gift of prophecy would come to an end. Without getting into a debate about when this would be, let me just say that predictive prophecy is certainly noticeable by its apparent absence.
From the beginning of their ministry, the apostles appointed elders (synonymous in the NT with 'overseers'). These would require spiritual qualifications in order to teach (see Paul's words to Timothy in his second letter, chapter 3, verse 24). It is apparent from what Paul said to Titus that those originally appointed by apostles would in turn appoint new elders themselves (Titus 1:5). There is nothing in the scriptures to show that 'teachers' like these would die out. Thus the 'faithful and discreet slave' could continue to be a self-generating entity that did not require the continued existence of apostles or even prophets. It should be noted that those who were 'appointed' as elders in the first century - according to what is indicated in the Bible - were already manifesting the necessary spiritual qualifications, before they were formally recognised as such. So one could function as a spiritually qualified teacher even without a 'label' of 'elder'.
Conclusion
Since many believe that the Christian 'Church' soon became corrupt and was replaced by an un-Christian authority structure, it is could reasonably be asked, 'What became of the faithful and discreet slave?' From what has been said regarding spiritual qualifications for teaching, God would not be bound to an 'organisation' to dispense spiritual food, but could very well direct continued feeding through Christians who were qualified, not by some religious organisation's criteria, but by Biblical requirements. Since there is no way to prove an uncorrupted, divinely appointed line of 'elder' succession, it would seem prudent to be very careful about whom today we allow to serve as an 'appointed slave' to 'feed' us spiritually.
It is of note that the whole manner in which Christianity grew in the early days was on the basis that those who were 'older' spiritually taught those who were 'younger', and when the 'younger' gained experience and exhibited the necessary spiritual qualifications they too taught the next 'generation' (compare 2 Timothy 2:1 & 2). -
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Who am I again?
by Bleep inahhhhh!.
you are a cog.
cope, whippersnapper, blep, troll, bla bla bla, sad.
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NewWay
You're not SPIDERMAN are you? ;0)
"They say that a hero will save us, but I'm not gonna stand here and wait!"Edited by - NewWay on 25 July 2002 18:29:18
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Worship pub. changes, FDS doctrine affected?
by Oroborus21 inhowdy folks,.
last night i was reviewing the new publication: "worship the only true god" ("worship") which is an update of the "united in worship of the only true god" ("united").. while i only spent a short time doing this there are evidently many changes.
some are just grammatical or stylistic changes and others i am wondering if they may be more significant in terms of doctrinal shifts.. examples:.
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NewWay
In Luke 12:42-46 we have the "faithful and discreet slave" parable also, but with a few differences words and sentence structure that help to establish that the "slave" is really only one slave. In the original Greek there is mention of only one "steward" (Greek = "oikonomos"), but is henceforth refered to as "slave" (Greek = "doulos"). The key expression to identify the "steward" is "that slave" (Greek = "ho doulos ekeinos") and it is used both with regard a good outcome and a bad one. There is only one slave, but dependant upon his attitude and actions, he either identifies himself as "faithful" or "evil".
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boomboom car stereos...
by DanTheMan ini live in klumbus ohio, in a neighborhood that ain't da hood but it ain't the 'burbs either.. it seems that if you are a male under 25 in my area and you don't have a 10,000 watt car stereo that shakes the whole neighborhood, well, you're nothing.. i don't get hip-hop culture.
i think that it is a screaming commentary on the cultural rot in the usa.. could someone comfort me or help explain the appeal of this pervasive sub-culture?
the depravity of it all makes me feel so hopeless sometimes.. maybe i'm a little too narrowly caucasian in my outlook.
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NewWay
Me-ism, plain and simple, but then that's part of the 'look at me, everyone' message found in a lot of 'music' today. Whatever you do, don't get me started on RAP 'music'!
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Watchtower in NY By Law has to turn in Pedo-Files
by YoursChelbie inin response to an enquiry, i received this e-mail today.
does this prove beyond any doubts that the watchtower's entire list of pedophiles names, in brooklyn headquarters, has to be turned over to appropriate law enforcement officials?
by their failure to do so, is not the wts clearly breaking the law?
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NewWay
'Caesar' is on his way!
"...for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God's minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad." - Romans 13:4 (NWT) -
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I'M BACK!
by scootergirl inyahoo!
my computer is back and running.......lesson learned (the hard way).
back up your harddrive now!.
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NewWay
Welcome back!
I've lost count of number of times through the years that for one reason or another I've had to reinstall the PC operating system and programs. I now make sure that I use re-writable CDROMs to back up important stuff as soon as possible.