outsmartthesystem

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Posts by outsmartthesystem

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  30

  Now what do I do?

  by outsmartthesystem in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for those of you that know my plight....i need to know your opinion.

  summary - i developed a piss poor, combative, rebellious attitude toward the society many years ago.

  my wife saw it and hated it.

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  outsmartthesystem

  THanks everyone. Thus far I've managed to avoid disaster. My wife agreed she should not have pushed for such a meeting unless it was something we both wanted. At least as of now.....I have time on my side.
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  51

  Uber Dub wants to have dinner....

  by outsmartthesystem in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ok. the good news is that my wife has eased up on the whole "talking it out with the elders" thing.

  she now insists that she is doing her"own independent research with unbiased materials" on some subjects.

  unbiased?

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  outsmartthesystem

  OK. The good news is that my wife has eased up on the whole "talking it out with the elders" thing. She now insists that she is doing her"own independent research with unbiased materials" on some subjects. Unbiased? I guess we'll see.

  But the real reason for this post is that we (my family) have been invited to have dinner with the congregation's uber uber uber dub. You know this guy. He gets to the KH 60 minutes before the meeting starts and is the last one to leave. Hand goes up on every single paragraph. Comments at least 5 times per meeting. Gives bombastic, sweaty...preacher type talks. Sways back and forth to the melody of the songs at the KH. Sings at ear splitting decibel level. Etc

  So about a month and a half ago....he calls me cell. I don't answer. He leaves what I would describe as an offensive message. He noticed that he hadn't seen me at the KH for months. He noticed that over the years my "level of spirituality was in a downward spiral". He wonders "if anyone has offended me". He hopes that has not offended me. He asks flat out if I am mad at Jehovah. Then he says...."I just want to help you in any way that I can. I just wonder what's gone so wrong.....you know....in your head"...... In other words....I am clearly possessed or crazy or perhaps both

  So this nutcase wants us to come over for dinner. My wife thinks he "means well". And he "has a good heart". I don't think I can. One of two things will happen. 1) He will want to talk about the lovely spiritual paradise witnesses have.....and that the end is near....etc. I will have to just nod and smile or 2) He will truly engage me in a discussion of "what's wrong with me". This one will not end well.

  Would any of you try to humor your wife and "take one for the team"? Or would you just refuse to go?
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  65

  Here is the funeral talk outline. VERY discraceful.

  by stillstuckcruz in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this is truly terrible.

  i just love the statement "instead of eulogizing the deceased, use the material in this outline to give a fine witness concerning the truth.

  " in other words, utterly disregard the deceased.

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  outsmartthesystem

  Disgusting. Yet uber-dubs (if they could read the outline) would say..."isn't it a fine provision from the FDS?" Surely (insert name of dead love one) would have preferred to have been preaching right now if he could....therefore this type of outline if very befitting".

  Gag
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  79

  WT Flip-Flops on Jesus’ Inspection… Was it in 1918 or 1919?... Did the WT PASS or FAIL?

  by Alfred in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is utterly ridiculous.... .

  the more i research this particular subject, the more flip-flops i uncover.

  it seems the fds cant even make up their minds regarding what happened in 1918 (or should i say 1919?).

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  outsmartthesystem

  Everyone has pretty much just nailed it. Cognitive dissonance at its core. Reminds me of my father in law. The man has been a witness for 30 years. He quit his job 20 years ago and claimed disability. He won't admit it (because it would be admitting fraud...basically) but the reason he did so was so that he could give his all to Jehovah as the system winds down. He has poured his heart and soul into this religion. He has spent tens of thousands of dollars he didn't have trying to give to the organization and help others out. He runs himself into the ground (health-wise) going out in service....making shepherding calls.....being on hospital visitation committees.....being on the RBCs etc etc. He is far past the point of no return. If God himself visited the man and told him the organziation was nothing more than a cult......he would say that it must have been Satan posing as God. At this point in his life (mid 60s) he simply HAS to believe. He has no retirement. He won't be able to afford his house payment once the disability $ runs out.......he has given EVERYTHING to this damned organization. Believing (for him) is not an option.

  I feel sorry for him.....yet I loathe him. This is the same man that bombards my wife with daily "encouragement" to stay "strong in the faith".
• 
  30

  Now what do I do?

  by outsmartthesystem in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for those of you that know my plight....i need to know your opinion.

  summary - i developed a piss poor, combative, rebellious attitude toward the society many years ago.

  my wife saw it and hated it.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  outsmartthesystem

  I would let the whole JW thing go, and find some freedom within the scope you are given. Maybe, on day, your wife may come around.

  That would be so much easier if it weren't for the kids. As an adult....she is free to believe whatever crap she wants to. But it actually hurts my heart to see her unknowlingly teach my small children to give up their minds to the control of others.
• 
  30

  Now what do I do?

  by outsmartthesystem in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for those of you that know my plight....i need to know your opinion.

  summary - i developed a piss poor, combative, rebellious attitude toward the society many years ago.

  my wife saw it and hated it.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  outsmartthesystem

  I might add..... ask your wife, if you were to get Dfd because of this meeting, "how is she going to handle the situation?" put it back on her ......you can show her various situations where it has happened to others just for asking questions.

  She insists that NOTHING would change and she would love me even more for approaching the situation head on. The problem with showing her various situations where ones HAVE been DFd just for askign questions is that they are all contained in "apostate" material or within the confines of websites like these. Remember.....everyone on here is mentally diseased therefore you are all lying about why you were disfellowshipped.

  You can do alot of awesome stuff with your kids without piting them against their mother

  Amen. That would not make for a good relationship
• 
  30

  Now what do I do?

  by outsmartthesystem in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for those of you that know my plight....i need to know your opinion.

  summary - i developed a piss poor, combative, rebellious attitude toward the society many years ago.

  my wife saw it and hated it.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  outsmartthesystem

  Dare I suggest that the elders got your wife to dare you to enter the KH to trick you into going there, exposing yourself as an apostate?

  I don't think so.....but then again.....people are usually betrayed by those they trust the most, no?

  When she has her meeting on Sunday and sees you and your kids getting ready for a GREAT time somewhere else,

  This too is a problem. I've tried the innocent "I'm going to take the kids to the pool" on Sunday. Her response is that there are only a few hours each week that she and the kids are at meetings. If I insist on doing family activities during those precious few hours then I am showing disrespect to her. Not respecting her desire to be at the meetings and have her children with her is something "an apostate" would do. I don't want to do anythign that she would classify as "sneaky".

  Hi outsmartthesystem, I agree with sinis. It is much better not to talk with your wife about the WTBTS, tell her how much you love her and your children, and plan fun activities that you and your family can do and will allow them to interact with "Worldly" people, especially if those activities will prevent them from going to meetings.

  Believe me....I like Sinis' approach as well. But she is too damn smart for it. Trust me. I can get away with it once in a while but if she senses that I am "planning" activities to keep her or the kids away from the hall.....she will lose trust in me. She will think I am trying to be a "sneaky opposer".

  My dear Brother, you have NOT out smarted the system this time.

  Yeah....I'd have to change my name to gotfuckedbythesystem

  Perhaps you could tell your wife that you INTEND to do so, but ask her to listen to your prepared material and the issues you struggle with.

  Already tried that. Her response is that the elders are in their respective positions for a reason. Because they "understand and can teach". My wife admits she cannot prove 607BC but seriously believes the elders can which is why she wants me to talk to them

  Your other alternative is to decide that the new Watchtowers (Oct & Nov) have completely resolved the issues you had. GOLLY GEE! Why didn't they ever explain the 607 fiasco so clearly before????????????? No need to meet with anyone. Start playing the Theocratic Strategy Game.

  Ha! But then she'll expect me to start going back to the KH again! :)

  Sounds like your wife wants to hear your side of the story. Get her to understand that you cannot talk with the elders as they will not listen!!! Remind her of the problems that you getting df will cause your family. I difused my wife from approaching the elders that way and explained I will never go to another meeting with her ever again. It worked. Now I just wait for each moment that comes along and stick in the facts. Eventually the real truth will shine through. Again she sounds curious to me and thats all you need to work with. Hope it goes well for you.

  She IS curious. But like me several years ago....she is scared to death to read anything "apostate". Her dad is an elder and fills her head with wonderful elder lies. She truly believes the elders will NOT DF me for disagreeing. And the only arsenal I have is testimony from books written by former members and websites like this one. She thinks that all former JWs and ones that visit websites like this one are all liars. She is unafraid of the problems that me getting DFd would cause. She even said "If I believed the way you do, I would go DIRECTLY to the elders with my material. And if they DF me then they DF me. NOTHING is more important than knowing the truth. I would NOT let the fear of DFing prevent me from getting all the facts straight"
• 
  30

  Now what do I do?

  by outsmartthesystem in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for those of you that know my plight....i need to know your opinion.

  summary - i developed a piss poor, combative, rebellious attitude toward the society many years ago.

  my wife saw it and hated it.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  outsmartthesystem

  she could pull the "spiritual endangerment" clause and leave.

  I don't believe that will happen. She has told me truthfully (I believe anyway) that she doesn't care if I am disfellowshipped. I am still her husband and the father of her kids. So long as I stay dedicated to her...she promises she would never leave.

  If you get DF-d the elders will encourage your wife to leave you. Trust me, I was down this road. You need to make a 180 degree change. DO NOT talk about the WTS any longer, no more negative stuff to your wife, let it completely go. What you need to do is take the back door approach and show your wife that you are HAPPIER without the borg. Take your kids to B-day parties, set up parties for them, celebrate the holidays, go out on the town... basically show your wife that people who leave are HAPPIER and are not falsely given the stigma (according to WTS) of dog vomit.

  Again....I don't believe she will leave. Trust me.....I certainly don't act bitter. I do my best to show her that I am happier without the BORG in my life. I certainly do NOT try to engage her in "spiritual" debates. She is the one that engages me. I appreciate your suggestions and will and have done some of them....but I simply cannot take my kids to B day parties/holiday events. THAT will make my wife dig in her heels and possibly leave. If I know how strongly she currently feels about B days and holidays, yet I encourage my kids to engage in them anyway....she will view that as a slap in the face. It will only create tension and make her lose trust in me and question my motives.

  I would be cautious because she said "she's put herself out there for you" and based one what you said, she put herself at bat in front of the Elders and CO. That's not easy to do unless she really loves you and believes in you. Based on the information you provided, it seems she believes you are sincere, and really loves you.

  You're spot on. She loves me very much. She just sincerely believes I've been lead astray and need help getting back on track. She loves honesty and truth which is why I think she may very well see the light when she sees that the elders cannot answer my questions. I certainly don't want to rush anything.....every day that goes by is one more day of my childrens' minds being molded by a cult. If I wait too long...they'll be older and I fear the cult personality will have already taken control of them too.

  I tend to agree with Sinis. No offense, but I think you're going about this the wrong way.

  I hate to say this--and I know that many on the board are big on the same line of argument as you--but I doubt they'll care about your research. They will only look at each other sadly, realizing that you're not just some weak, crazy, mixed up kid...which all we lesser apostates supposedly are...but you are instead a dangerous individual who must be dealt with for the good of the congregation. Right now, they probably think you just need straightening out, which is (partially) why they promised your wife they wouldn't DF you. Once they realize they were wrong, they will DF you anyway.

  None taken. I understand and wish I had handled everything differently YEARS ago. I didn't WANT this to happen. But my hand is being forced. If I don't talk to her and the elders....I risk her interpreting my lack of action as a sign that I know I'm wrong. I fear that my lack of action may serve to bolser her faith in the organization. I KNOW the elders won't care about my research points. That's not why I'd be doing it. I'd be doing it under the hope that my wife will see that my questions cannot be answered. And hopefully that makes the lightbulb in her head go off.
• 
  30

  Now what do I do?

  by outsmartthesystem in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for those of you that know my plight....i need to know your opinion.

  summary - i developed a piss poor, combative, rebellious attitude toward the society many years ago.

  my wife saw it and hated it.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  outsmartthesystem

  For those of you that know my plight....I need to know your opinion.

  Summary - I developed a piss poor, combative, rebellious attitude toward the society many years ago. My wife saw it and hated it. The reason I did is because I knew something was wrong....but I couldn't put my finger on it....and I sure as hell wasn't going to do any "apostate" research. Therefore, I just said "screw it" and developed a bad attitude. I stopped going in service....stopped commenting......encouraged the family to miss meetings etc. My wife witnessed these actions....and it forced her to take over as "spiritual head" of the house. Several years later, I finally woke up and decided to do research. My research has obviously proved my feelings from several years ago correct. That something IS wrong....and now I've put my finger on it. The problem is that I don't want to fade alone....especially knowing my little children are still being raised as part of this cult. But given the bad initial attitude I developed....I kind of pushed my wife into extra spiritual mode. She would more or less make up for my lack of spirituality by going in service more....studying with the kids more etc.

  Therefore when I learned the REAL truth....I had already burned that bridge. I couldn't slyly worked critical thinking questions into our family study because we didn't have one. I couldn't work anything in as a family head...because...well....I had relinquished that title long ago. Now....due to the bad attitude I had for so long.....anything I say is taken by my wife as an attack on her faith and the children. My wife listens to and believes all the wonderful elder stories her dad tells her.

  She is a very good woman that loves truthfulness. She truly believes that I've been lead astray and that if I just sit down and talk w/ the elders, everything will be fine. I calmly explained that I will be ripe for DF'ing if I do that. She was appalled and said that the elders have NEVER DF'd someone just for having disagreements. She was so distraught by this that she sat down with the presiding overseer and circuit overseer to explain to them why I don't go to meetings and why I don't want to meet with them. According to her, of course, they want to lovingly "help" me. They assured her that no DF'ing would take place unless I "shout from the roof tops my disagreements and recruit others to follow me". Becaues of this.....she wants me to sit down with her AND them and talk about all that I've uncovered.

  Here's the dilemma. She won't talk with me on a one on one basis for fear that I will unknowingly seek to wreck her faith. She wants to sit in on a meeting with the elders and me because then she can hear my concerns without feeling like her faith is being attacked....AND the elders can "explain things better" than she can. I truly believe that if I lay out my research.......the elders simply won't be able to respond. They CANT prove 607 BC. They CANT prove 1914. They CANT prove 1919. I am loaded with an arsenal of problematic issues for them. I truly believe that my wife will truly reason on the matters I bring up when she is alone........if only I could get her to listen. Is this my opportunity?

  Yes I know I am putting myself out there for potential DFing......but if I get DFd for this......I have my wife as a witness. They said they would only do so if I tried to spread my teachings and recruit others. If they DF me anyway.....I really believe it would be a major wake up call to my wife. I am not afraid of being DFd. What I am afraid of is being DFd while my family is still very much IN. If DFing is the first step to getting her and my children out then I am willing to take it.

  I am kind of stuck now. I feel like I almost have to do it. The reason is that my wife said to me the other day, "look....I've now put myself out there for you. I'm agreeable to sincerely listening to what you have to say, so long as the elders are there. I want Jehovah's spirit to be there. (yes....she thinks if elders are present then it will be a blessed arrangement). If you aren't agreeable to doing this then I think it proves that you are wrong, you know you're wrong, and you just want to be rebellious". If I don't do it.....then she's right. It LOOKS like I am afraid the elders are right and all I'm doing is hiding from them. She has no reason to listen to me if it LOOKS like I am not confident enough to discuss with them. It LOOKS then like I am willing to "pick off" a small sheep (her) but not willing to approach the sheep when the "shephards" are around.

  Do I take the plunge? If not....have I lost the only opportunity I'll have to reach her?
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  18

  What is the best book about JWs (written by non JWs, of course), in your opinion?

  by Chemical Emotions in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i've never read any, so i'd like to know everyone's opinion..

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  outsmartthesystem

  Crises of Conscience. Any time you have first hand accounts of someone that was there for all the things that went on during governing body meetings.....it makes for good reading. The lack of Godly direction is painfully evident