Posts by outsmartthesystem

30

OMG! I have had a huge row with my neighbour in the driveway! Oh the shame.....

by watersprout in

jw
friends

so we are looking after this stray we found called ''dog''.... she is ok seems to have settled down and made herself at home.

lol.

so this morning we jump in the car to take carrot to work and we put dog in the kitchen so she doesn't eat all my furniture.

outsmartthesystem

I just want to give a different perspective. I certainly don't know the details....nor would I pretend....but a couple years ago...I found myself if YOUR NEIGHBOR's shoes.

Our next door neighbor got a dog and staked it in their backyard on a leash. It would bark and bark and bark. Sometimes they would bring it inside....sometimes not. But one day I gave them an earful. It was their barking dog that kept my infant from taking a nap. We had to shut all windows, play a baby Einstein disk and buy a fan and turn it on high to make enough white noise to drown out the dog's howling. The point being....if they had just taken the time to realize that a dog's barking can indeed be a nuissance (especially when children are trying to sleep)....perhaps they would have done the right thing and inconvenienced themselves by bringing the dog inside rather than inconveniencing all the neighbors.

This isn't meant to be a knock on you. I say that because two years before we had kids.....WE found a stray (we called him brown dog - very original). We did the same loving thing you did and took him in as our pet temporarily. Yes he barked. And yes a neighbor called me out about it. Granted....he did so in a more civilised manner than what it sounds like your neighbor did.....but still....I took exception. I remember thinking..."who is THIS guy to tell me when to put my dog in or out? Does he not have a heart for strays?" Turns out....he had a small child that was trying to take a nap. It was only after I was in the same position as he was in that I realized that it was my civic duty to take in that stray dog and do the right thing.....but it was also my duty to make sure that dog doesn't disturb others.

85

Hello--new to the witnesses...and you

by LKM in

jw
friends

just wanted to introduce myself.

i went to the kh for the first time 2 weeks ago...and will go again tomorrow.

i don't believe anything witnessy...(i was raised in the assembly of god church and now the closest thing i "do" with religion is yoga or sometimes the buddhist temple).... but the man i'm in love with is a df'd jw (we've been together for 6 years).... and he wants to get reinstated just to talk to his family again (i can assure you he does not believe it).... and he wants his family to accept me because we are about to get married... so, i'm going to meetings...its very interesting, but only because it shows me more about how he was raised.

outsmartthesystem

"You don't have to be DF'd or DA'd to be shunned . . . being "inactive" (not involved in the ministry) is usually enough to be labelled "bad association" or dangerous."

Thus far I agree with everything that's been said.....but I might debate this point.....but only slightly. I would honestly say it all depends on the congregation you're associated with. Where I am from....."inactives" are not outright shunned. The elders actually do a reasonably good job of trying to "encourage" such ones by keeping in contact with them. Rank and file witnesses that tow the line perfectly are actually encouraged to try to associate MORE with inactive ones......hoping to get them back to regular attendance at the KH. It isn't until the inactive one displays a "bad attitude" (negative comments/disagreements/in depth questions that undermine the "authority" of the leaders of the organization) that he/she begins to be shunned.

But that's just my two cents from my personal experiences

85

Hello--new to the witnesses...and you

by LKM in

jw
friends

just wanted to introduce myself.

i went to the kh for the first time 2 weeks ago...and will go again tomorrow.

i don't believe anything witnessy...(i was raised in the assembly of god church and now the closest thing i "do" with religion is yoga or sometimes the buddhist temple).... but the man i'm in love with is a df'd jw (we've been together for 6 years).... and he wants to get reinstated just to talk to his family again (i can assure you he does not believe it).... and he wants his family to accept me because we are about to get married... so, i'm going to meetings...its very interesting, but only because it shows me more about how he was raised.

outsmartthesystem

"1. Teary has not claimed to be an "active JW in good standing." Only you assumed that for the sake of your strawman and personal attacks."

Teary, if you are not an active JW in good standing then what is your purpose in posting the JW apologetic responses you've made thus far? Doing what Sizemik suggests (actually examining your previous posts and your blogs) shows that you clearly are a JW apologist. Please answer this question. Are you an active JW in good standing?

LKM - This should tell you something about JWs. This man IS an active JW apologist.....yet he quasi-denies it with his very first point mentioned above. And that's what you need to know about JWs. My honest opinion is that they rarely tell you flat out lies if they can help it. Rather....they twist the truth and suppress the truth and then use tricky wording to make their points seem valid. Take number 1 mentioned above. He says "Teary has not claimed to be an active JW in good standing. Only you assumed that for the sake of your strawman and personal attacks". This is very clever.....but can easily be seen through if you know what to look for. He has laid a typical JW trap. He didn't outright lie and say "I am not a JW in good standing". He said "Teary has not claimed to be an active JW in good standing". Theoretically, he told the truth. But not the WHOLE truth. Never once in this thread did he actually claim to be an active JW in good standing. But......ultimately that is what he is. He suppressed the truth through cunning word play. Instead of admitting that he IS an active JW.....he chose to focus on the fact that he never SAID he was. That, LKM is what witnesses do. They are masters at it. They divert your attention away from THE REAL POINT AT HAND and get you to focus on WHAT THE,Y WANT YOU TO THINK ABOUT. In this case...the focus was taken off the fact that he IS an active witness apologist.....and instead re-focused on the fact that abiblestudent made an accusatory remark about it. The focus (Teary hopes) is now on the "personal attack" (which in reality was nothing more than a basic observation) being made by abiblestudent against Teary. It is all about diversion. They will divert your attention away from their false teachings, contradictions and false prophesies. The "trap" that I mentioned above? It is two fold. 1) Teary didn't lie.....he suppressed the whole truth. Therefore you cannot accuse him of being a liar without him saying "I didn't lie! See? Another baseless personal attack. These apostates are all the same", and 2) Teary tries to refocus your attention on the "attack" that was made against him (which was true).....since witnesses like to paint all ex-jw's with the same brush....calling them ravenous.....Satanic and mentally diseased.

What Teary said to abiblestudent is no different than me posting something in a different forum about the need to control pollutants and emissions. And then abiblestudent responds with a post of his/her own that says something like "there goes Outsmart again.....on his soapbox. I can't stand that democrat." And then I respond by saying "I never claimed to be a democrat! Only you assumed that for the sake of your strawman and personal attacks!" When....the fact is.....I AM a democrat. Did I lie? No. Never once did I actually claim to be a democrat. But I suppressed the FULL truth by not openly admitting it. And not only did I suppress the truth.....I tried to deflect the TRUE assumption that was made about me and instead get you to focus on the APPEARANCE that abiblestudent is attacking me....... as bitter and vindictive ex democrats all do. Would you consider my actions to be above reproach? Would you consider me to be forthright and honest? Well....you have a prime example of how JWs reason and act with one short comment made by Teary.

141

"Theocratic Warfare" and the Annual Report

by Billy the Ex-Bethelite in

one of the things i certainly noticed as a jw, and even during the time i was in bethel, was the complexities of reporting "truth.".

beginning with an observation on a personal level, i consider myself an honest person.

but something happened along the way, beginning when i pioneered.

outsmartthesystem

Lastly.....take the advice of Oz and the dwell on the words offered by Sizemik. Yes on this site you are going to find a few current JWs that come here to tell us we are all condemned. And you will certainly find a few ex JWs that are beyond livid with the organization and will/would do anything (including lie) to get other witnesses out of the organization. These ones are unfortunately the ones that the society focuses on when they speak of apostates. The society takes the actions and mind sets of the minority (that have a vendetta agains the organization) and paints us ALL with that same brush.....thus making current witnesses believe that we are ALL poisoned....vindictive...diseased.

Overall I agree with Sizemik. I think you'll find that the MAJORITY of us are good people....truth lovers that are simply relieved to have found out the truth about "the truth".

Correction - In my last post....when I said that "most" of us fudged.....I meant the people commenting on this thread. My belief is that the majority of witnesses DO NOT fudge.....but those that do most likely did it becuase of pressure to conform. Keep in mind that this thread is regarding dishonesty. Those of us that posted admitted that we were ones that for one reason or another did indeed fudge. Yet there are 50,000 other members on JWN that DIDN'T post. Likely because they were like you in that they did not get caught up in the political aspects of being a witness (climbing the ladder.....therefore needing to pad the stats).

The worst thing you can possibly do is take personal experiences as your main reason for believing/not believing something. And do you know why? Because EVERYBODY FIBS. Perhaps not intentionally....but everyone tells it like THEY SEE IT. People exaggerate. People tell THEIR side of a story. You are going to run into the same thing no matter where you go. JWs sensationalize their field service stories. On this website......many people may sensationalize how badly they were treated by the organization. If you hate corporate greed and join an anti Wall Street protest you will hear many stories of investment banks that are in collusion with one another to make sure that the middle class falls into deep poverty. Everyone tells it HOW THEY SEE IT. It is quite simply human nature

Maybe you don't like this thread. Maybe you are discouraged by the amount of people commenting on their personal experiences with "fudging". But none of this changes the facts that exist. The facts that lead you out of the Watchtower Society remain truthful regardless of the stories you like or dislike on this website

141

"Theocratic Warfare" and the Annual Report

by Billy the Ex-Bethelite in

one of the things i certainly noticed as a jw, and even during the time i was in bethel, was the complexities of reporting "truth.".

beginning with an observation on a personal level, i consider myself an honest person.

but something happened along the way, beginning when i pioneered.

outsmartthesystem

Fact Finder - "But in this thread and in others I keep reading about how people were dishonest even while they were witnesses, some being pioneers and elders, bethelites and cong secretary. And I wonder-how honest are these people? If they saw nothing wrong with lying while they were witnesses, how honest would they be now?"

We were all a product of the system. It was beaten into our heads how important it was to SHOW numbers. Sure, the ministry school would pay lip service to the importance of quality of your service.....but in the end.....it came down to numbers. How many hours? How many RVs? How many magazine placements? How many book placements? Yes some people faked their service reports. Some did it because they were truly trying to be encouraging. (higher numbers all around are encouraging). Some people did it because we had to in order to have "privileges". Some people fudged because they just didn't give a damn and wanted to keep the elders off their backs. Yet, I'm sure....there are many, many who never have and never will fudge. If the number of people fudging doesn't tell you that this work of "field circus" is NOT BEING DIRECTED BY GOD....I don't know what will.

How honest are these people? Again......they are a product of the system. A system that says all the right things from the stage (focus on the quality of your ministry) but reality is much different. When you are beaten down by numbers numbers numbers.....eventually you start to not care or you start to justify fudging your numbers in your own mind. This doesn't make a person a pathological liar. It makes them a victim of a corrupt system.

I consider fudging on a service report to be akin to finding a $20 bill on the street. If you found one....would you report it come tax time? According to the law....you should. If you don't report it.....you have lied about your true income. Does this make you a bad person? Not in my mind.

141

"Theocratic Warfare" and the Annual Report

by Billy the Ex-Bethelite in

one of the things i certainly noticed as a jw, and even during the time i was in bethel, was the complexities of reporting "truth.".

beginning with an observation on a personal level, i consider myself an honest person.

but something happened along the way, beginning when i pioneered.

outsmartthesystem

Factfinder - "It is very dissapointing to me and surprising that many claim they faked their fs reports.

I am going through so many conflicting feelings and ideas- I don't know who to believe."

I don't think the insinuation is that MOST witnesses turn in completely BOGUS reports. The insinuation is that yes....most of us fudged. Although it is still NOT true....there is a difference between rounding up from 8 to 9 hours and blatantly writing down 10 hours when you know you never even went out once. For instance.....in my hall.....you had to average 10 hours to receive the wonderful privilege of being a "territory servant" or a "mic handler". And yes....if you fell behind....you'd get an earfull from the CO or the PO. So if you had 9 hours....it (at the time) didn't seem like THAT big if a sin to just say I got 10. Here was my reasoning. I thought....at least my 9 hours were REAL hours. I actually tried to engage people in bible conversation. I prepared. Whereas a particular elder's son that I knew (same age as me) DIDN'T prepare. He intentionally wasted time out in service. He would even (yes I was guilty of this a couple times too) do the fake door knock.....and then stuff a magazine in the door so he wouldn't have to talk to anyone. He got his 10 hours of service in.....but it was all BS! He gets "privileges" because he hit the magic number of 10....even though the service he rendered was half-assed. I get a stern talking to about not taking field service seriously because I only hit 9 hours. The point being....no one gives two shits about the QUALITY of your service. They just care about the numbers. And when you realize that.....you tend to think it is no longer such a big deal to fudge a bit.

141

"Theocratic Warfare" and the Annual Report

by Billy the Ex-Bethelite in

one of the things i certainly noticed as a jw, and even during the time i was in bethel, was the complexities of reporting "truth.".

beginning with an observation on a personal level, i consider myself an honest person.

but something happened along the way, beginning when i pioneered.

outsmartthesystem

So.......pioneers are well known for taking the "star" route to all of their calls.....

Everyone takes excessive breaks

I myself recall making several days out of driving across town and dropping magazine off at laundromats and convenience stores

I know of several witnesses that "rounded up" or borrowed hours from the next month only to never make it back up.

As mentioned already....you talk to any elder and they'll tell you that if you make a "call" before meeting for service....and then you make a "call" right afterward.....you can count your "time" all through the service meeting.

I can't tell you how many times we met for service and immediatly hit the adjacent parking lot to hand a magazine to an unsuspecting shopper just so our entire ****ing van load of proselytizers could start counting "their time".

Yet witnesses brag about the 1.5 billion hours (or whatever it is) that they put into the "disciple making work" every year. No one stops to recognize that the majority of it is BS. Or if they do......they reason "well....the society says we can still count our time even though we aren't technically out in service any more......and they are receiving their direction from GOD....so who are we to question it?"

13

Ya know what I really hate?

by outsmartthesystem in

jw
friends

i personally know a lot of witnesses that are on government assistance.

whether it be food stamps.....government subsidized housing.......medicaid....whatever.

first and foremost i am not bashing government assistance.

outsmartthesystem

I personally know a LOT of witnesses that are on government assistance. Whether it be food stamps.....government subsidized housing.......medicaid....whatever. First and foremost I am not bashing government assistance. Unfortunately the Government doesn't have the necessary precautionary measures in place to prevent their programs from being misused.....but overall....I believe assistance for the less fortunate is the humane thing to do. My issue is with witnesses that are on government assistance. Yep. The same people that bash the government for standing in opposition to "true theocratic government by Jehovah".

It makes my blood boil. I recall having a conversation with an elder uber dub who was ripping the U.S. government....saying he can't until "this disgusting democracy is crumbled by Jehovah's righteous kingdom." I actually asked him "are you aware that it is this DISGUSTING government of ours that pays for half of your rent? And do you know that you receive health care for virtually free.....likely abusing emergency room privileges for the sake of a cold.....thus driving up the costs of everyone else's healthcare.....and it's all from......the evil government?"

This was the one and only time that I ever said what I wanted to say at a meeting.

That's right uber-dubs. Let's continue to preach doom and gloom for the evil governments that exist and their corrupt leaders. Then let's live off of what they graciously provide to you. Since your healthcare, rent and food is taken care of....you can afford to work a part time job sweeping floors......thus giving you ample time to go out in field service and preach to others about the disgusting governments and what will soon happen to them.

141

"Theocratic Warfare" and the Annual Report

by Billy the Ex-Bethelite in

one of the things i certainly noticed as a jw, and even during the time i was in bethel, was the complexities of reporting "truth.".

beginning with an observation on a personal level, i consider myself an honest person.

but something happened along the way, beginning when i pioneered.

outsmartthesystem

"I too stopped with the incessant starting and stopping of my FS time and just started rounding it. Go out 3 times in a month, just multiply by three hours each time. Voila! 9 hours of FS. Dump a bunch of old mags at not at homes and suddenly I placed 20 for the month. Its the attitude of 75% of the flock these days"

And somehow I was convinced that God was directing and blessing such efforts.

70

Free Will and Foreknowledge

by TheUbermensch in

hi, i'm a new member that enjoys civil debate, so i thought i'd just throw a topic out there.. if we take the standard, contemporary judeo-christian god (all-knowing, all powerful, and perfectly good in every possible way) and attempt to incorporate free will, we end up with a contradiction.

an all knowing being knows everything that has occured, is occuring and will occur, if otherwise then we can not consider this being to know all.

if god knows all that will happen, then he knows our decisions, as well as the outcomes of those decisions.

outsmartthesystem

"Knowing what someone is going to do and making them do it are two different things."

I would agree with this. My honest opinion is that nothing is pre-determined. KNOWING the end result of a plethora of a person's decisions throughout his life does not mean that you DIRECTED or MADE those decisions for that person.

This is going to sound really unintelligent but....hey! You only live once, right? Let's just pretend that I managed to fix that old flux capacitor that is sitting in my garage right now. I hook it up to my Delorean and now I can travel in time. I move ahead one day and notice that at 5:04 pm my child touches a hot stove and gets a minor burn. I fire up the ol' Delorean and travel back in time to the previous day. Now I have a full 24 hours to prepare for what I know is going to happen at 5:04 pm the next day. As 5:04 rolls around I have a choice. Do I have a talk with my child at 5:03 about never touching or even going near hot stoves which would cause my child to avoid the stove at 5:04pm (thus pre-determining my child's life.....at least for that moment in time)? Or do I let it happen anyway?

In this case....I know the future.....but I have the ability to direct/alter it.....or choose not to.

For those that believe in God, I think the question is........does he or does he not choose to "direct" things. If he does "direct" things, then he must really love Jimmy Buffett (what a life!) and hate Ethiopians.