He is clearly using fear and guilt to try to persuade you to come back. Problem is.....he doesn't even see it. He thinks he is just laying out the facts for you.
outsmartthesystem
JoinedPosts by outsmartthesystem
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45
So an old friend from the hall called me today....
by shakyground inhe said he wanted to know how i was doing and what was going on with me.
i knew that it was only a matter of time before he started asking about me not being to the hall in like 3 months and him trying to bring me back into the fold.
and in about less than a minute he started telling me about how everyone at the hall misses me and asks about me.
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CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE ARRIVED - Lets see what my guy (Ray franz) had been up to
by mankkeli incoc was delivered this evenning and i will be jacking it the whole night.
i might write a review to refute ray's argument after the reading and btw, i will be away from here for some time.
let it begin.. .
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outsmartthesystem
Mankkeli
Are you indicating that you have not read COC up until this point? I find that to be strange since....ya know....you were a close personal friend of Ray before he died.
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JW Apologists, Lurkers, etc., can you prove the selection in 1919?
by garyneal ini mean, this is the pivotal doctrine that will prove beyond all shadow of a doubt that this religion really is the one true religion.. why is this so?.
why not just read and study the bible and see that the witnesses adhere to it and therefore must be the one true religion?.
because a lot of what the witnesses say that bible says is merely their interpretation of the bible from my point of view.
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outsmartthesystem
"My trouble is with this argument, as sound as it is, is that I'm not convinced that many Witnesses DO realise that their whole belief structure hangs on the events that supposedly happened invisibly in 1919"
This all comes down to cognitive dissonance. It is a powerful thing. My wife once told me "you get caught up in chronology and dates too much. I don't let stuff like that bother me. To me.....chronology and dates aren't all that important." Her need to believe it is the truth completely outweights the fact that it cannot be proven to be true without exact chronology. Her need to believe clouds her ability to soundly reason on the matter. And the same is true for 7 million others
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JW Apologists, Lurkers, etc., can you prove the selection in 1919?
by garyneal ini mean, this is the pivotal doctrine that will prove beyond all shadow of a doubt that this religion really is the one true religion.. why is this so?.
why not just read and study the bible and see that the witnesses adhere to it and therefore must be the one true religion?.
because a lot of what the witnesses say that bible says is merely their interpretation of the bible from my point of view.
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outsmartthesystem
GaryNeal - This is exactly the point. There is absolutely no proof that Jesus selected them in 1919. But a witness is trained to BELIEVE it without ever being shown the real proof. Once they believe....all other teachings become concrete. They pour their hearts, souls and minds into the organization. The fairytale of living forever with flowers and happy bunnies surrounding you becomes an obsession. All the other teachings are what is focused on with the "fact" that the "slave" was chosen back in 1919 being an afterthought. Inability to prove the 1919 selection at a later date becomes a moot point because the belief in everything else that has been taught and the NEED to believe in the new system is SO strong that it shuts down their mental faculties that would make a normal person question everything. They mentally shut down when the topic comes up and they respond with things like "you just have to have faith" or......"wait on Jehovah". By refusing to address the truth....they preserve their cherished beliefs.
That's the thing with witnesses. They don't reason "if I refuse to accept the truth about our history....then I can preserve my cherished beliefs". They are trained to automatically shut down critical thinking in that area without even knowing it. They don't realize that they AREN'T thinking critically.
When you try to get them to focus on 1919 and prove it.....their minds automatically shut off and start viewing you as someone trying to destroy their faith. They go into automatic faith defense mode and start rationalizing the irrational. And they don't even see/know it
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I feel Bilious, now, help
by Judicial Committee inme and my wife took a nice pumpkin pie and some brand new pajamas to my dear mother who stays at my sisters house, she is ninety one (91) mind you, ok it was her birthday but there was no candles or a birthday card and she did need some new pajamas.
ok, two weeks later, my brother in-law comes to our house and practically forces his way into the house, and proceeds to tell my wife who has never been a jehovahs witness ever but does know their rules because i explained them to her, that he does not want no more holiday food in his house of any kind, (of note) his wife who is a witness ate some of the home made pumpkin pie and if truth be known my brother in-law did too.
anyway i am trying to make some sort of sense of this, he comes to our house laying down the law of jehovahs witnesses and insulted me and my wife all over a simple homemade delicious pumpkin pie which is my moms favorite, two weeks after the fact.
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outsmartthesystem
He is a self-righteous prick that is obeying the letter of the law as it is handed down from the GB.
I grew up in a congregation that had an elder that was just like him. He reprimanded me and my 9 year old friend for admitting that we liked "devil's food cake". This man also successfully petitioned that "deviled eggs" be disallowed at any congregation get togethers.
This man certainly would have formed a judicial committee if he had found out that you had baked your mother ANYTHING on her birthday.
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It is SO depressing when you just can't get through to someone
by ilikecheese ini have been hitting a brick wall trying to pry my boyfriend away from this stuff.
it just makes me cry that it's so obvious to me how wrong it is, and he's not even batting an eyelash.
he knows about all of the scandals, all of the false prophecies, the coverup of sexual predators, that elders tell abuse victims to stay with their spouses, that they dishonestly use sources, and he just doesn't care.
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outsmartthesystem
"He still contends that they're the only ones who are living right."
If by saying "living right" you mean.....holding to upright standards and Christian morality then have you tried explaining to him that those same principles can be employed in your life regardless of your association with the organization? Unforuntately the WT leaders do a good job of convincing their followers that Christ like behavior cannot be maintained OUTSIDE of their organization.
"Can you recommend any particular books apart from those Raymond Franz books?"
You are in a predicament. In most cases, the advice would be "don't discuss doctrine" with him. JWs (including him and me at one point) are under mind control....they just don't know it. They are trained to cut off critical thinking skills before their faith in the WT leaders gets damaged. You can show all the evidence in the world to a devout JW and they will find a reason to dismiss the evidence. INstead of pondering the evidence....they learn nothing from it and only focus on defending their position more defiantly. Whereas witnesses that routinely express doubts or complaints about the organization are a little more ready to hear and ponder facts. Even then....you need to be careful. You don't want to bombard them as it will be perceived as an attack on his faith. Your boyfriend admits problems within the organization so I'd say you may be able to reasonbly discuss some matters with him.
READ CAPTIVES OF A CONCEPT by Don Cameron. It explains in great detail why your boyfriend is reacting the way he is. He is captive to the concept that although it is imperfect......the witnesses are still God's only chosen organization. The book not only explains what captivates individual witnesses....but also gives ample proof as to why they are NOT God's organization. THen....use that information to ASK QUESTIONS. Don't hit him upside the head with all these facts you've learned. He'll put up his shield.
"What made Jesus select the witnesses as his organization in 1919"?
"What spiritual truths were being taught back in 1919?"
"If the brothers went into spiritual captivity around 1914 but emerged in 1918 cleansed and refreshed from Babylonish captivity.....then certainly their teachings would show such a cleansing. What changed from 1914 to 1919 (when Jesus selected them as his earthly organization because of the truthful teachings they were dispensing)?
The book will give you many more good examples. But make sure you ask in sincerity. Offer to study the older publications with him to find out these answers.
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Who would you have Lunch With? From JWN?
by AvocadoJake inthe last few years "warren buffet.
" has donated his time to the highest bidder for charity.
the ebay auction usually goes for $100,000 to spend lunch-time and pick his brain on his view.
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outsmartthesystem
I will echo nearly all other sentiments and say.......just about everyone. Most contributors have good hearts and want to help other people out.....and THAT is the type of person I would want sitting across a table from me. I can honestly say there are relatively FEW that I WOULDN'T want to have lunch with.
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North Korea Vs the Borg
by outsmartthesystem ini don't know whether to be saddened or encouraged by this situation but i'll lay it out to you.
surprisingly my wife decided to watch an hour long documentary with me about life inside of north korea.
of course it documented how children are indoctrinated from an early age to "honor" (worship) kim jong il.
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outsmartthesystem
I don't know whether to be saddened or encouraged by this situation but I'll lay it out to you. Surprisingly my wife decided to watch an hour long documentary with me about life inside of North Korea. Of course it documented how children are indoctrinated from an early age to "honor" (worship) Kim Jong il. It documented that the vast majority of adults simply believe (due to their indoctrination) what they are told by their "dear leader". It documented that information is tightly controlled so that no citizen is exposed to information that the oppressive governmental regime doesn't want its people to see. It documented that most adults, even if given the opportunity to learn the truth, would reject it because they are convinced that the western world is evil and they have the best life possible. It documented that the leader of the regime makes governmental (organizational) decisions with little regard for the lives of the people under his control......all the while painting himself as a savior through his own propaganda. It documented that the local library (in Pyong Yang) only contains books written by Kim Jong Il's father, Kim Jong Il himself or anyone else that has been approved by the regime (in order to gain approval....the book must praise the country's leadership. ) '
It was alarming how many similarities there were between the North Korean Iron Fist and the Brooklyn New York Iron Fist. My wife was appalled. She was blissfully ignorant in regard to the lives of North Koreans. (she was brought up in a house that did not encourage well rounded education. Knowing history or geography or current events was considered a waste of time because "when the end comes....none of that will matter") She kept talking about how horrible life would be to be controlled like that. Not being able to make your own decisions......having your freedom stripped away without even knowing it....etc etc. She was appalled.
I did nothing but agree with her what a tragedy such a situation was. My question is.....is this a good or bad thing? I mean.....half of me is proud and hopeful now that she has seen with her own eyes the injustice of mind and information control. Yet the other half of me was devastated that she could watch something like that....and comment on the control and lack of personal freedom......and then go prepare for "field service" the next day......without making even the slightest connection.
Do you think that at the very least a seed has been planted?
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question for you, mankkeli
by outsmartthesystem inok.....i am really going to try to keep true to my promise of ignoring mankkeli from now on.......but not till after this post.
mankkeli, i just need you to verify something for me.
based on your past posts (and avatar) you are a :.
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outsmartthesystem
OK.....I am really going to TRY to keep true to my promise of ignoring Mankkeli from now on.......but not till after this post.
Mankkeli, I just need you to verify something for me. Based on your past posts (and avatar) you are a :
Public talk giving, beard wearing elder that serves in your circuit and sometimes at Bethel, while holding down a job as a doctor, who was good friends with Ray Franz before he died, and who balances out all the aforementioned theocratic acitivity by planning apostafests.
Did I get all of that correct?
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What's The Biggest Difference In Today's JWs And The Witnesses From Decades Ago?
by minimus ini believe today's witnesses lack zeal, resolve, "love" of the "truth"......just to name a few things.. years ago, witnesses were excited to knock on doors and tell people they were gonna die if they didn't accept paradise.. now, when you see jws in service, they all look zombied out.. it's a slowly dying religion that will last probably forever like an ancient rotted out tree..
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outsmartthesystem
The only thing I miss is the Vess cola (later Shasta) and hoagies. :)