ScenicViewer

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Posts by ScenicViewer

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  87

  Watchtower STUDY EDITION - Vehicle for Vitriol and REALLY crazy statements?

  by punkofnice in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  is it me or do i notice that all the weird and hateful cultish statements are now appearing in the 'study edition' washtowels?.

  anointed are nuts - august 15, 2011 watchtower (the study edition) pg 22 qfr: memorial partakers.

  this is the number.

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  ScenicViewer

  'bait and switch' in H-bomb proportions!

  You're thinking on a grand scale...H-bomb proportions. Love it!
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  87

  Watchtower STUDY EDITION - Vehicle for Vitriol and REALLY crazy statements?

  by punkofnice in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  is it me or do i notice that all the weird and hateful cultish statements are now appearing in the 'study edition' washtowels?.

  anointed are nuts - august 15, 2011 watchtower (the study edition) pg 22 qfr: memorial partakers.

  this is the number.

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  ScenicViewer

  Cults tend to use two languages to get to people. First they come at you with something that generally makes sense, and if it is a Christian cult, they will use scriptures pointing to something good; a better world, a better life, a good life for your kids, etc.

  Then, at some point, the language changes from the initial Bible based references to the deeper language of the cult. With the Watchtower, it's talk of the anointed remnant, two classes of Christians, the way to treat those who disagree (aka apostates), false religion, etc. Often the references are not found in the Bible but everyone seems to act like they are. One language gets you in, the other sucks you down and makes you the cult's property.

  When the two versions of the Watchtower started, I wondered how much clearer it could be that the Society is speaking two languages, like a cult, rather than the pure language of truth. What other reason could there possibly be for having two versions of the Watchtower Magazine.

  (Zeph 3:9, "For then will I turn to the peoples of a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of Jehovah, to serve him with one consent." American Standard Version)

  A pure language should be the aim of a truly Christian religion, not two languages.
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  15

  When were the annointed resurrected to heaven?

  by drewcoul in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have heard that there has been some changes as to what the witnesses teach regarding the resurrection of annointed to spirit life.. what is the current teaching?

  is it still that an annointed is resurrected "in the twinkling of an eye" as i was always taught?

  i was also taught that this resurrection began in 1918. .

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  ScenicViewer

  @ Talesin

  There was no mention or disagreement that the man I knew was not of the 144,000, and I never heard the '1935' date mentioned before I got online. Is this something they came up with in the 80s/90s, or was it around beforehand?

  I too knew a Witness in the 70s, who began to partake in her late 20s or early 30s. I think it caused a little silent murmuring, but the general information at the time is that we can't make judgements about who is and isn't anointed so it just became a non-topic of conversation.

  The best Society explanation was that new ones would be anointed to replace unfaithful anointed who had died. Still, the extremely young age didn't make sense.

  And you are right about the Society being fairly certain, but still a little ambiguous on the topic. Now the Organization has backed away completely from mentioning a date when the 144,000 was 'sealed.' It's no wonder, since that date too (1935) has fallen completely apart.
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  20

  James Beverley's book on Penton's expulsion now on Abebooks

  by MrMonroe in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  "crisis of allegiance" is a slim, but excellent book written by a professor of religion on the events in lethbridge, alberta, around 1981, that led to the expulsion of jim penton, a jw who believed he was anointed but also happened to think the wts had some doctrines wrong.. it's a great read that ties in quite closely with the campaign to get rid of ray franz, showing the dirty tricks used by the society to rid themselves of someone who dared to question them.

  penton was an academic who the society loved when he wrote a book on their human rights legal challenges ... but when he expanded his research and decided to do a book on their history, pow!

  they began regarding him with great suspicion.

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  ScenicViewer

  scenic,

  :...the Witness that would read his book is rare indeed

  That is where you might be wrong. In the years since Jim published that book, I have seen huge numbers of dubs who had their eyes opened because of it.

  Gotcha Farkel! Your explanation is so "schororly" . (Now go edit that if you have time.)
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  20

  James Beverley's book on Penton's expulsion now on Abebooks

  by MrMonroe in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  "crisis of allegiance" is a slim, but excellent book written by a professor of religion on the events in lethbridge, alberta, around 1981, that led to the expulsion of jim penton, a jw who believed he was anointed but also happened to think the wts had some doctrines wrong.. it's a great read that ties in quite closely with the campaign to get rid of ray franz, showing the dirty tricks used by the society to rid themselves of someone who dared to question them.

  penton was an academic who the society loved when he wrote a book on their human rights legal challenges ... but when he expanded his research and decided to do a book on their history, pow!

  they began regarding him with great suspicion.

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  ScenicViewer

  @ Farkel

  I'm a little confused, and wondering where I went wrong in my remarks.

  Penton, having once been one of Jehovah's Witnesses, will be viewed as an apostate rebel for leaving the religion.

  Is it not true that the ex-Witnesses who left because they disagreed with the Watchtower on issues of teachings and beliefs, are viewed as apostates? Especially when they go public with their criticisms? Isn't Penton one such person?

  ...the Witness that would read his book is rare indeed

  Witnesses are strongly warned not to read literature from 'apostates'. Isn't this true? Maybe there are some reading such literature in secret and I should wise up to that...Is that what you meant by saying I have a lot to learn?

  ...probably has already seen reasons to have doubts about the rightness of the religion.

  Myself, I would not touch anything that the Society had deemed to be apostate until I had noticed double standards in beliefs, and dishonesty on the part of the Society and it's appointed elders. I can imagine other witnesses having developed doubts about the rightness of the religion, then looking elsewhere for answers. But I can't imagine many witnesses who are strong believers taking a look at anything the Society condemns. I never would. Maybe others are different.

  Newbie...Yes, new to this forum, but not new to the Watchtower.

  So, if you can, please explain more about what you meant when you said I have a lot to learn, based on my brief remark above.
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  77

  Heavenly Gates Closed in 1935… Re-opened in 2007

  by Alfred in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  since 1935, the watchtower had been categorically teaching (for over 6 decades) that the heavenly calling of the 144,000 anointed christians had ceased in 1935. this teaching was especially significant to older jws (especially those who spent much of their lives serving the watchtower as pioneers, elders, missionaries, bethelites, etc.

  ) because many of these would eventually turn their attention to the aging governing body members and feel a sense of relief knowing that the end was drawing ever so near.

  in other words, as more governing body members (who were born before 1935) passed away, the closer they would get to their long-awaited reward of surviving armageddon and living on paradise earth where they would finally hug grass-eating lions near a waterfall while marveling at snow-peaked mountains in the distance.

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  ScenicViewer

  New Chapter asked, Is there a thread that gives the numbers of partakers throughout the years? Have they increased a great deal?

  Going by memory, the lowest number of partakers was in the low 8,000s (not sure what year was actually the lowest, but it was around this number for several years). Now there are over 11,000 partakers.

  That's an increase of roughly 3,000 partakers at a time the number should be going down.

  And be aware, these partakers are recognized Witnesses in good standing, since disfellowshipped people and strangers are not counted.

  Here is a thread...

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/209085/1/memorial-partakers-for-2010-11-202
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  78

  How long did Conventions used to be?

  by donuthole in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  i remember as a child in the 1980's attending four day conventions.

  i know in the past conventions were even longer.

  does anyone know how long they use to last and the approximate years?

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  ScenicViewer

  It seems downsizing became organizational practice sometime after 1975. Lots of cuts began to happen (for financial reasons?) that continue to happen to this day.

  No more food service at assemblies, Less new literature being released, Recycling books for the book study (Revelation book studied at least 4 times?), No more magazine subscriptions, Awake magazine reduced to one issue per month, Hardcover books, including bound volumes, are now soft cover (paper or plastic), Calendars were discontinued, then came back half-sized, Book Study merged into Theocratic School/Service Meeting nite, Branch offices being closed around the world, Gilead Missionary School closed, Brooklyn headquarters properties being sold.

  Along the way, assemblies and conventions have also been shortened. District Conventions went from 8 days to 7, then 5, then 3 or 4 depending on whether it was "International", then just down to 3 days. Circuit Assemblies were cut from 3 days (they used to start on Friday afternoon) to 2 days, then one of them was reduced to an Assembly Day.
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  77

  Heavenly Gates Closed in 1935… Re-opened in 2007

  by Alfred in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  since 1935, the watchtower had been categorically teaching (for over 6 decades) that the heavenly calling of the 144,000 anointed christians had ceased in 1935. this teaching was especially significant to older jws (especially those who spent much of their lives serving the watchtower as pioneers, elders, missionaries, bethelites, etc.

  ) because many of these would eventually turn their attention to the aging governing body members and feel a sense of relief knowing that the end was drawing ever so near.

  in other words, as more governing body members (who were born before 1935) passed away, the closer they would get to their long-awaited reward of surviving armageddon and living on paradise earth where they would finally hug grass-eating lions near a waterfall while marveling at snow-peaked mountains in the distance.

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  ScenicViewer

  @ Band on the Run, who asked,

  Did they just have new light and as of a certain date, you were encouraged to suddenly be a remnant member?

  No, it isn't encouraged to be a remnant member, but the number of partakers at the memorial is increasing. I'm going to copy and paste some information from my notes here. It shows the difference between what used to be declining numbers of partakers, and the now increasing number of partakers, and the way the Society responds to it.

  (Latest View of Memorial Partakers and The 144,000)
  
  One change is in the way the Society looks at the number of partakers. The declining number of partakers was supposed to be proof positive that we are in the last days. Under the subheading 'Six Convincing Lines of Evidence [of being in the last days]', the following article says,
  
  "Sixth, the number of genuine anointed disciples of Christ is dwindling, though some will evidently still be on earth when the great tribulation begins. Most of the remnant are quite elderly, and over the years the number of those who are truly anointed has been getting smaller." (Watchtower Jan 15, 2000, p 13)
  
  -- and --
  
  "There is every reason to believe that the number of anointed ones will continue to decline as advanced age and unforeseen occurrences end their earthly lives." (Watchtower Aug 15, 1996, p 31)
  
  However, in recent years the number of partakers has increased significantly. Obviously, the declining number of partakers proved nothing regarding the last days.
  
  Another change is in when the number of 144,000 was sealed. Previously it was viewed to be in 1935. The organization said,
  
  "Logically, the calling of the little flock would draw to a close when the number was nearing completion, and the evidence is that the general gathering of these specially blessed ones ended in 1935." (Watchtower 1995 Feb 15 p.19)

  -- and --
  
  "There is good reason to believe that the number of 144.000 anointed Christians was complete decates ago...The facts over the decades reflect both the completion of the calling of the anointed and Jehovah's blessing on the growing "great crowd," who hope to survive "the great tribulation."" (Watchtower Aug 15, 1996, p30)

  The reason for looking at 1935 as though it was the year the 144,000 were sealed, is that it was in that same year that the 'other sheep' were explained to be ones with an earthly hope. It was assumed that since Jehovah provided the "new understanding" of the 'other sheep' in 1935, it was because the 144,000 must have been completed in that year.

  But because of the increasing number of partakers in recent years, the Society is forced to take a step backward in the 1935 date, and it now says,
  
  "Thus it appears that we can not set a specific date for when the calling of Christians to the heavenly hope ends." (Watchtower 2007 May 1 p.31)
  
  And what about all those new partakers? The Society suggests that some partakers may be emotionally unbalanced, or are influenced by past beliefs, and are partaking by mistake.
  
  "...A number of factors — including past religious beliefs or even mental or emotional imbalance — might cause some to assume mistakenly that they have the heavenly calling. We thus have no way of knowing the exact number of anointed ones on earth; nor do we need to know." (Watchtower 2011 Aug 15 p.22)
  
  Like so many Watchtower beliefs, this one is a state of flux, and there is confusion all around.
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  34

  Australia Jehovah's Witnesses Child Abuse/Governing Body Of Jehovah's Witnesses Court Case

  by mind blown in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  .. case number: b12083527.

  .. case number: b12083108.

  .. case number: b12083367.

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  ScenicViewer

  Of course the WTS would put out a "don't watch this apostate program" warning to all the JW's as soon as they caught wind of it.

  Yes they probably would, but many Witnesses would watch anyway. A major media report on anything to do with your religion is hard to ignore. Just telling Witnesses not to watch would inform many that wouldn't have known about it. Major news coverage would be great.
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  31

  Do you know the oldest Kingdom Hall personally that still exist today?

  by Iamallcool in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this kingdom hall was built in the 1960's and they still meet there.

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  ScenicViewer

  The KH I attended was built in 1960. It was built from a plan that was common at the time in the area, and several other KHs were the same. In the late '80s it was given a major remodel.