aristeas

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Posts by aristeas

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  40

  2011 November Our Kingdom Ministry-PDF!

  by Atlantis in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  .

  credit goes to anonymous2011 november our kingdom ministry (and more).http://www.megaupload.com/?d=eq03rgzoatlantis

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  aristeas

  Thx for the shares, Atlantis.
  
  As the wall of secrecy continues to crumble, surely the heavies at Patterson are grinding their teeth. Nothing like the net to somewhat level the playing field...
  
  Tim, maybe it's just too outdated. Since the borg rarely sees problems coming, the logical (?) conclusion is that some poor uninformed elder followed an old procedure outlined in the Organized book, and messed up. Put yourself in the borg heavies' shoes: would you really want some poor brother following ***OLD LIGHT*** — how blasphemous!
  
  Most interesting is the list of other BOE letters to be 'destroyed'! What's up here? Surely they cannot all be 'old light'. Maybe statements in those letters could be used against them legally somhow ... (?)
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  118

  School for Congregation Elders

  by C.O.B.E.Beef in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i attended the school late last year, and it was an emotional and mental rollercoaster for me.

  i was already divided in my heart to say the least.

  one of the instructors stayed in my home for the week, and my family genuinely enjoyed his company.

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  aristeas

  COBEBeef,

  Thanks for this share. It was quite insightful. One question: were you raised in or did you convert?
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  8

  WatchTowers emphasizing the divine name, Really?

  by paulnotsaul in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  we can agree on three things.

  1) in exodus 3:13-14 moses asks god his name and who sent him to them.

  god says his name is i am that i am.

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  aristeas

  Some things to consider on Exodus 3:
  
  ehyeh occurs several times around Ex 3:14 ( 3:12, 4:12 and 15) and with very few exceptions translators render this as a future tense in modern languages in all those other places. The context argues for a future sense: Moses is hardly playing the role of Isaiah here — 'here I am, send me!' Thus God/Yahweh/Jehovah is encouraging him (even gets angry with him) to put faith in him without God revealing his full plans. In other words, that biblical message of faith underlies the entire account. Again in most English translations the context is full of future verbs: 'I will bring up up...I will stretch out my hand...I will perform...I will bring', verses 17, 20-21. In Hebrew there is no difference between the present and future tense since Semitic languages have no tense system. Clearly the context argues for a future meaning at 3:14.
  
  It is noteworthy that the first two English translations rendered directly from the Hebrew by Tyndale (1530) and Coverdale (1535) have the future tense in 3:14, but church tradition got in the way so that by the time of the KJV it was I AM, now in caps! The fact that the first two translators of this passage into English used a future is further strong evidence that this is the natural way to take ehyeh.
  
  Many modern scholars admit this should be 'I will be' rather than 'I am". For example, Edward Greenstein, who wrote the notes in the Harper Collins Study Bible (2006), an edition of the NRSV has this, as does Michael Coogan, The Old Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Hebrew Scriptures (Oxford 2006) p. 87. Though dated, Joseph Rotherham's translation has an excellent discussion of this matter in the introduction and in his footnotes to the above verses.

  The I AM thing stems from a traditional interest within the church to concoct yet another Trinitarian proof text.
  
  Hope this serves to inform...
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  10

  Classics from the Watchtower archives Part 1

  by dozy in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  part 1 of an occasional series - contributions welcome.. .

  is it desirable to make provisions in kingdom halls for a soundproof room to which disturbing children can be taken and in which the parent can hear and perhaps see the sessions and yet the child cannot disturb congregational meetings?g.e.,children should be in the congregation with their parents, and the children should behave themselves.

  the parents should so train their children that they will behave.

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  aristeas

  O K, so how many here are/were among such ' obstreperous offspring'? All you various 'its' out there!
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  4

  The Nov 1 public WT on 587 V 607. help please

  by Aussie Oz in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  not being up with this stuff very well,.

  could somebody disect the extensive article and arguments the wt uses in this edition please?.

  i suspect from this being in the public edition, they are getting flack at the doors for this...the internet is a huge research and awareness problem for them no doubt.. thanks oz.

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  aristeas

  transhuman86

  Thx for the humour – much needed.
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  57

  Okay I believe the Andre thing now.

  by Sharpie in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  before, i was thinking, this whole thing with the character the writing department has must be a coincidence.

  they must use other names?.

  nope.

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  aristeas

  OK, we/ve got such a diverse group of people here that we might be able to punch thru the wall of secrecy the borg likes to put up on sources. Let's suppose, for the fun of it, that Andre is/was a real person. What can we deduce about him from these 'random' comments/experiences?

  He must be European or have spent time there and go back before the Euro (French Francs, g95 9/22 p6); he's undergone persecution (g9/09 p13); was raised in (g90 4/8 p15, g77 12/8 p 30); is hard line on sexual matters (w 11/06 p18); played organized sport(s) and visited Rome (w94 6:1 p6); and has raised kids (page 20: november 1st public edition)

  So does all this strike a bell with anyone? If not, they maybe the membership here isn't big enough –or– the guy is a real fiction!

  Pretty racy for the borg to print 'give a fig', eh?? BTW, Sharpie, thanks for the explanation. I was as lost as AudeSapere without it.
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  7

  Sheep and goats...

  by Aussie Oz in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we all know the old sheep = followers and goats = the independant thing.

  sometimes i wonder if the bible got it all wrong, but i think the writers may have got it spot on!.

  having spent a couple of years working with sheep, over all, they are stupid, followers, will only eat what they are provided, scared and unfriendly.

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  aristeas

  AussieOz:

  Spot on! While I was in, I remember talking with a rancher who compared how stupid sheep are with how intelligent cattle are (sorry, no goats here). Some highlights I remember: All one has to do is show a steer how to get back to the pen once and it will do it on its own afterward, whereas the sheep has to be personally escorted back every time and never learns on its own how to do it. When attacked, a steer will run or fight back. A domesticated sheep will just stay there bleating and dying. At best it will take cover among the other sheep who will not fight back either.

  At the time I was struggling with how nearly all Witnesses I knew had to be told anything from established authority. If I (or someone else) shared something true either from the scriptures or about life in general, I'd ususally get a puzzling look or at best, a 'That's interesting.' Then if a WTS publication later came out with the same thing, it was 'Oh, isn't that fascinating!' At first I was shocked, but then, like you, I thought of the scriptural concept of sheep knowing the voice of the shepherd and not that of the hired man, etc. As you have pointed out, it certainly fits overall. Your words about being anti-social are esp. good. With whom do literal sheep only associate? Other sheep and their beloved shepherds. Sound like anyone you know?

  According to the psychologist Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs (see http://www.businessballs.com/maslow.htm -or- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs for good charts of this) at the bottom rungs are things like safety, security, law, limits, order, food, while higher needs such as achievement, responsibility, respect for and by others, and personal growth are at the top. It's pretty clear where traditional religious people fit in, why members who belong to this forum left the borg, and why they generally cannot 'reach' those still in.

  I think of the spiritual perfection envisioned by most Witnesses in their new order as a place of massive ignorance in the sense of the emprical truth so valued by the intelligensia of today. Rather it would be a place full of very simple people who nevertheless love their God Jehovah and where their very basic needs of security mentioned above are constantly met without worry. They simply do not have other needs such as curiosity or fulfillment (at least not in any sophisticated sense) higher up on Maslow's chart. Thus there would be no need for meeting them in the new order.

  The Hebrew concept of Adam and Eve's sin being to partake of the tree of knowledge is pertinent here. Sheep have a very limited desire for, even tolerance of, knowledge.

  I appreciate your taking the time to initiate this thought-provoking thread! It will be interesting to see how others respond...

  Cheers.
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  26

  Top 10 JW Beliefs

  by OnTheWayOut in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i will post a serious list of the beliefs that make jw's unique.

  but i want your thoughts, including anything weird like "beards are evil" or that "smurfs are from the devil.".

  the top 10 jw beliefs:.

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  aristeas

  OTWO,
  
  Just a few observations, for what they're worth.
  
  On number 10, there is testimony that among the early church fathers this matter was debated. Thus, at least a long time back, it was an issue. Hence it's not unique to JWs. Surely in the extensive religious history since the Reformation other groups would have latched onto this as well. With the long history of Socinians, early Unitarians, et al., this must have been a quite popular view among such folks.
  
  For no. 5, you might want to consider groups like the Mennonites and Amish. In fact, the earliest court case in the USA against the governmental compulsory flag salute/pledge of allegiance was from one of those groups, not JWs. Of course, various forms of Christian conscientious objection from military service has a venerable history in western lands. BTW, Francis Schafer (a popular Evangelical — 'born again' — author) has written a book against Christian neutrality, and it is NOT directed toward JWs. His reason for this is that it is a moderately known belief among some Evangelicals.
  
  As for no. 4, as Leolia has amply documented, this is certainly not unique to JWs. It goes back to a moderately influential group of 19th-century Protestant pseudo-scholars (dumb fundamentalists) who were out to 'prove' the cross was pagan. Examples are Hislop's Two Babylons, Bullinger's lexicon and Companion Bible, Parson's book, and Vine's Expository Dict. of NT Words. See Leolia's now famous and indeed extremely informative post on this:
  
  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/92381/1/The-facts-on-crucifixion-stauros-and-the-torture-stake

  FW Franz just subscribed to this view and it has become hardened as official doctrine.
  
  On no. 3, even today many Orthodox Jews do not celebrate birthdays and holidays. Again, among several small conservative Protestant groups (for example, the old Herbert Armstrong followers, the Worldwide Church of God; also the Christadelphians) these days are not observed. Additionally, there are plenty of historians who willingly admit the earliest Christians did not either. Even some simple encyclopedias cover this.
  
  When it comes to nos. 2 and 1, well, plenty of conservative religious groups have beleived this for centuries. Within the Catholic church it was held as the theological basis for the Crusades. John Calvin taught it and traditional Calvinists still hold to it. The inhabitants of the Qumran felt that they were the only true Jews, as some Orthodox still affirm today. On NPR earlier this week there was a 'Fresh Air' segment on The New Apostolic Reformation movement in the USA. It is quite popular among certain segments of Protestant Evangelicals, and they believe that are the only true Christian group and that everyone who will be saved must follower their interpretation of the Bible They even call their governing group 'Apostles'. See this:
  
  http://www.npr.org/2011/08/24/139781021/the-evangelicals-engaged-in-spiritual-warfare
  
  The 'closed' denomination of the Plymouth Brethren have taught the same about themselves for 150 years now. Al Qaeda and similar very conservative Moslem groups also believe the same. Many hard-core Mormons subscribe to the ultimately 'us only' mentality. On and on this list can go...
  
  
  I hope this provides some food for thought.
  
  Cheers.
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  14

  Elder's Manual

  by outsmartthesystem in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  first and foremost....if anyone out there has access to one and trusts me...please pm me.

  i am dying to get my hands on a full copy.

  but if not....can someone at least confirm.....does it expressly say (somewhere in the manual) that simply not accepting society based doctrine is grounds for disfellowshipping (on charges of apostasy?

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  aristeas

  I find it so very difficult to trust any of them any more after knowing how deceived and deceitful they all are. They just do whatever they want. I remember hearing some elders say, 'Oh don't worry about the details. We'll just get him on being rebellious'. Once the trust is gone, it's pretty much impossible to restore it.

  allelsefails: thanks for sharing your rexperience.
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  81

  NEW RUMOR: WT ALLOWS BIRTHDAYS

  by J.R.R.Watchtower in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've just read at a spanish forum for ex-jw that the wt has cooked a new light article series about social celebrations, including birthdays and aniversaries.

  according to a member of this forum 'in short' the wt will let witnesses to decide by 'their bible trained conscience' either they celebrate birthdays or not.

  is this rumor based in some real facts or it's just bullshit?.

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  aristeas

  JRRW,

  What has your source at the Spanish forum BEEN SMOKING?