Posts by Sulla

161

Theological Arguments, Human Realities

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

as i have sunken to a new low in condescending posts (according to botchtowersociety, who truthfully is an expert on all things bullshit), it did occur to me that discussions, debates, and mud slinging insult matches on this board often have a common root.. let me put out there that i am not an atheist, nor an agnostic.

frankly, i respect your right to believe that god is a trinity.

that he is jesus.

Sulla

Golly, sizemik, I guess we could add hypocracy to my pathetic arrogance, if it makes you happy. Or we could just drop it now, as I see you are not in the least affected by the idea that your conversion as an adult to the JWs should possibly be taken to suggest any character defect of any kind whatever.

I get it: I don't know you and your special circumstances that led you to radically re-organize your entire life and knock on strangers' doors to tell them pernicious lies without bothering to twaddle over to the library and see if 607 is just a made up date or not. Certainly it says nothing about your intellectual rigor.

For that matter, insinuating yourself into a seven-page thread for the sole purpose of making personal and profane attacks shouldn't be taken as any sort of indicator about your character in any sort of negative way whatsoever. No, that's just totally rational and normal.


sizemik: Here's a suggestion . . . get someone to read your posts aloud back to you . . . and listen to a pompous arsehole before you go fuck yourself again.

OK. Are you thoroughly done now? Feel better after telling me to fuck myself twice? Or do you need a few more "internet tough" swings before you get right with yourself?

-- Oh, and you might want to check the urban dictionary definition of "ponce," before you go further out of your head. And the crack about the UK spelling of "asshole" was a little joke. I know, it's tough to catch that sort of thing when your eyes are rolled all the way back in your head.

161

Theological Arguments, Human Realities

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

as i have sunken to a new low in condescending posts (according to botchtowersociety, who truthfully is an expert on all things bullshit), it did occur to me that discussions, debates, and mud slinging insult matches on this board often have a common root.. let me put out there that i am not an atheist, nor an agnostic.

frankly, i respect your right to believe that god is a trinity.

that he is jesus.

Sulla

I find using non-bull scatological terms works in some situations. "Bullshit," it seems to me, is hardly a curse at all; it almost seems like a simple description nowadays. "Dogshit," on the other hand, matches a reality that most people are familiar with: they've stepped in it, they have dogs, whatever. This "near-ness" of dogshit makes a categorization more immediate, more real, somehow. I though that would take the ordinary "shit-for-brains" comment directed toward you to a slightly better, meaning less-better, place.

Dad never swore very much, thoroughly JW-ized as he was. Although, in a extraordinarily agitated state, he once told me that Brother X was "too much of a pussy" to stand up against a majority of the body of elders on some issue or other. I was quite shocked.

Anyhow, I don't see where you criticize the cussing ability of whatshisname, up there. Ponce can't even spell "asshole."

161

Theological Arguments, Human Realities

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

as i have sunken to a new low in condescending posts (according to botchtowersociety, who truthfully is an expert on all things bullshit), it did occur to me that discussions, debates, and mud slinging insult matches on this board often have a common root.. let me put out there that i am not an atheist, nor an agnostic.

frankly, i respect your right to believe that god is a trinity.

that he is jesus.

Sulla

Well, seems I've hit a nerve.

I've said that adult conversion to the JWs is a signal of intellectual laziness and arrogance, that it true. Which is to say, all else equal, an adult convert to the JWs is more likely to be both intellectually lazy and arrogant than one who does not convert. Obviously, I have no idea what other problems you have that made the JW message seem plausible to you. But, if my observation that the pathologiees of JW-ism make it especially attractive to the intellectually lazy and arrogant irritates you, well, I guess I'm not necessarily surprised. It is much easier to think that the conversion process was based only on the faults of others and not something unlovely within ourselves: I was a victim, not an accomplice, don't you see?

Unfortunately, your conclusion that I should go fuck myself because of being such a stupid asshole is probably off-topic. As such, I recommend you begin a separate thread to discuss whether the problem is my arrogant self-mesmerization or your lack of intellectual curiosity.

13

"God is Love" vs. "Mentally Diseased" vs. Pink Lingerie

by HintOfLime in

all this discussion about the 'mentally diseased' comment the wt made got me thinking.... is that not exactly how it starts?

the de-huminizing of other people?

when the protestants began to reform from the catholic church - where did it start?

Sulla

The JWs of the 50s, perhaps, serving as models of tolerance and unity.

It is an interesting habit that some JWs have of pretending that, back when they joined/were active/took it seriously, things were different. People were nicer or the elders were less psycho or the literature was not so nutty or whatever.

40

If JW's Should Be Accountable For Their Sordid History.....

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

....shouldn't christian religions of all persuasions be accountable as well?.

if this is insulting, it isn't meant to be.

former jw's all the time come here on this forum and others to hold the governing body accountable for teaching lies and holding on to a history, a tradition if you will, that embraces leaders like c t russell and j f rutherford, both of whom taught things that are almost entirely rejected by jw's today.

Sulla

Quick question, designs. Exactly how long has it been since you stopped knocking on doors, trying to sell a Watchtower? I ask because you are so much more sophisticated that that now.

161

Theological Arguments, Human Realities

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

as i have sunken to a new low in condescending posts (according to botchtowersociety, who truthfully is an expert on all things bullshit), it did occur to me that discussions, debates, and mud slinging insult matches on this board often have a common root.. let me put out there that i am not an atheist, nor an agnostic.

frankly, i respect your right to believe that god is a trinity.

that he is jesus.

Sulla

ATJ: Simply put, what I have an issue with is the presentation that your god, with your religious theology, is somehow superior. There simply is no logical basis to put one theology ahead of another, when all have the same amount of evidence to back it up.

ATJ, there has been extensive discussion on this thread about the virtues of the conclusions of Chistian theology. In drastic summary: pretty much all the stuff you like is related to the Christian theological assertion that each and every human life is of inestimable value and that creation is good and logical. It's not really necessary to lower the achievements of other theological approaches in order for this to be true: my point is simply that your various assertions about Christian theology (it is pernicious, it is pointless) are simply wrong. The "Human reality" of Christian theology is positive in ways that you simply refuse to attempt to grasp. ATJ: Of necessity, the Trinity, as with other theology related to the nature of god, is derived from sources postulating on matters that can't be verified.

The problem, ATJ, is that if you care to investigate morality in any systematic manner, you will find yourself in exactly this position. Which is merely to point out that you are very content not to look at your own inverifiable postulates.

40

If JW's Should Be Accountable For Their Sordid History.....

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

....shouldn't christian religions of all persuasions be accountable as well?.

if this is insulting, it isn't meant to be.

former jw's all the time come here on this forum and others to hold the governing body accountable for teaching lies and holding on to a history, a tradition if you will, that embraces leaders like c t russell and j f rutherford, both of whom taught things that are almost entirely rejected by jw's today.

Sulla

Botzwana: I am with ya AlltimeJeff....ALL religions are evil! All of them have done attrocious things to mankind.

Must be the religion. Get rid of it, and all will be well. Get rid of religion and we will all live like happy little gazelles: peacefully grazing, shagging, and generally living fulfilled and self-actualized lives. Where have I heard that before?

Ah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror

13

"God is Love" vs. "Mentally Diseased" vs. Pink Lingerie

by HintOfLime in

all this discussion about the 'mentally diseased' comment the wt made got me thinking.... is that not exactly how it starts?

the de-huminizing of other people?

when the protestants began to reform from the catholic church - where did it start?

Sulla

HintOfLime: Jehovah's Witnesses are nowdemonstrating that they are NO DIFFERENT from any other intollerant religious group. They are starting down that same path, retracing the same basic steps that have divided and hurt man since the beginning of time - to de-huminize their fellow man with hate speech.

Hmmm. You talk like somebody who thinks they were different at one time. They've changed since you left, you think?

39

The New Testament in Plain English and John 1:1

by Wonderment in

.

the new testament in plain english (published, 2003) translates john 1:1c as: "the word was god.

" however, a footnote on this verse says: "or, deity, divine (which is actually a better translation, because the greek definite article is not present before this greek word).

Sulla

Actually, Diest, we have good evidence from prior to 130 A.D. that the Jews were very unhappy with the Christian worship of Jesus. If you read through the Dialogue with Trypho, for example, you will find several passages where Trypho, a Jew who interacts with St. Justin Martyr, expresses his irritation with worship of Jesus.

Fact is, we don't really have NT evidence about what, precisely, the Jewish problems were with the Christians. It wasn't "the Jews" who had a problem with circumcision, it was Judiasers within the Christian church. In those very few places where we read commentary on the Jewish reaction to the Christians, we see that they are charging that the Christians are telling Jews to ignore the Law. It isn't obvious what this means, but I'd suggest a complaint about the first Commandment might have some plausibility.

161

Theological Arguments, Human Realities

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

as i have sunken to a new low in condescending posts (according to botchtowersociety, who truthfully is an expert on all things bullshit), it did occur to me that discussions, debates, and mud slinging insult matches on this board often have a common root.. let me put out there that i am not an atheist, nor an agnostic.

frankly, i respect your right to believe that god is a trinity.

that he is jesus.

Sulla

Jeff, I'm sure you are tired of hearing me say you are engaging in simplistic and self-serving thinking. I know I'm tired you keep engaging in simplistic and self-serving thinking. And I am sensitive to the argument that it is easier for me to stop harping about it than it is for you to change the way you think and, therefore, that's the efficient solution. I'll take it under advisement.

But, if we are going to complain about theology and religion causing inequality between the sexes in the third world, would we suppose that religion and theology are to credit for their relative equality in the first?

No need to answer that, I think we already know what you'd say.

Jeff: I do think one reason why [Christianity has become more liberal] is that we live in the west with liberal democracies, where all are allowed to follow the dictates of their conscience, and have the freedom to explore non Christian alternatives. The focus was no longer on the theology of the church, but on the autonomy of the individual.

This is, again, drastically simplistic. Perhaps the reason the West has become the place where liberal democracies are is because of good theology. Or is the fact that liberal democracy has emerged where the civilization is Christian and not otherwise some sort of coincidence? So, it seems your thinking needs some refinement. On one hand, you want to say theology is pointless mental masturbation and on the other hand you want to say it has real (if uniformly harmful) effects. That's pretty sloppy. Moreover, your criticism of theology is, itself, based on unstated (and, dare I say, Christian) morality. Getting back to your complaint about the treatment of women, what makes you suppose they ought to be treated equally? Do we have some historical precedent for this? Actually, we mostly see exactly the opposite, don't we? And for perfectly good reasons: women are a valuable and scarce resource. It is natural to want to put tight controls on valuable and scarce resources: you don't let your car go wherever it wants without supervision, do you? One of the things you need before you can begin thinking that maybe women should have equal rights as men is the idea that all people are not means to some end, but are themselves valuable. Why in hell shouldn't we exploit the poor or disabled or weak? There is a Christian, theological, answer that I am aware of. I'm not so sure there are non-theological reasons.