Posts by Oroborus21

45

Something significant changed in the WTS in 1984... but what was it???

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

looking at this chart i can't help but notice that pre-1984 the growth statistics were extremely erratic.

then, all of the sudden in 1984 the growth statistics calmed down and have ever since fallowed a much more stable trend.

it's almost a straight line after 1984.. so what happened?

Oroborus21

Nicely said Yaddayadda. that was what I was tryng to say in the other thread regarding the chart. I really don't think there are going to be any big percentage jumps anymore but there may be big percentage losses...-ed

125

Their "BIG" news 'KNOCKING' documentary

by DannyHaszard in

knocking documentary newsletter #1 summer 2005. .

witnesses.

stories of real families to humanize jehovah's witnesses.

Oroborus21

just a final word from me (promise Danny)

you guys are funny the more controversy you stir up, the more emails and letters you send to PBS the more you will guarantee that the thing gets run (and maybe more than once)

The network is dying to increase viewership and knowing that if they do run it, not only will they feel like JWs will tune in, they may get the feeling that a lot of opponents will tune in to.

Maybe threatening to cancel PBS support or not to donate in the future will make them blink, but otherwise with no advertisers to really worry about, and knowing that any thing with controversy is going to draw a nice size audience, you are working against yourselves.

the best strategy would be to ignore it completely.

-Eduardo

21

Grey's Anatomy?

by BlackSwan of Memphis in

.

i am generally an avid fan of grey's anatomy, but was unable to catch what happened last night.. are there any fans out there who would be willing to fill me in??.

meagan

Oroborus21

Just caught the show from time to time so don't know the characters names. here are the highlights: (I am sure there is an episode guide on the Web somewhere)

The black doctor finally had her baby with help of one of the intern's (guy with curly hair) help as a lamaze partner

Her husband flat-lined on the table in his operation but was revived and is recovering

The Hospital Administrator guy had what they thought was a heart attack but it was only an anxiety attack

Sandra Oh? said something about her guy saying I love you while he was sleeping (she said back to him at the end)

and finally Grey and the whole unexploded shell thing...after moving down the hall to get out from over a main oxigen line that ran under the OR, she was able to pull her hand out with the shell. she handed it to the main bomb squad guy (the guy from the old Early Edition series) and he walked out of it

there was a lot of speechifying and what not - all of it made totally unrealistic by the lack of any helmet or face shield as would surely have been on all of them in a real bomb situation -but of course bad for television since it would obstruct their faces and cause reflections etc. for the camera...

anyway, the bomb squad guy walked out the room and down the hallway...stupid Grey followed him out and was looking down the hallway when the shell suddenly exploded turning the guy into the "pink mist" wrecking the hallway and flattening Grey on her back and knocking her out...later on there was a scene where the two intern girlfriends were showering her off and the blood was being washed off of her....

At the end also, that doctor who only found out that it was Grey who was holding the bomb just before it went off when his patient was coding....showed up at her house ...

then they had an exchange about the last time they kissed how she couldn't remember it, and then he turned to leave but then told her it was in the morning..blah, blah, blah, and she smelled likesome flowwer, he turned to leave again and she said it was lavender. yeah lavender.....to then he said he was "glad that she didn't blow up" :-) or something stupid like that and left

-

hope i didn't ruin the show for you.

ed

45

Something significant changed in the WTS in 1984... but what was it???

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

looking at this chart i can't help but notice that pre-1984 the growth statistics were extremely erratic.

then, all of the sudden in 1984 the growth statistics calmed down and have ever since fallowed a much more stable trend.

it's almost a straight line after 1984.. so what happened?

Oroborus21

running man probably right about the 15 minute change but that was for pioneers -but still probably had effect on reg pubs too (not sure if the chart includes all JWs or just pubs)

I would probably add too that there might have been some growth going into 2000 just due to millennium change and even maybe Y2K fears (remember that)

Interesting extrapolation Stillajwelder - that is just about when the world will come to an end or beginning or both according to some who view 12-21-12 as being significant.

-Eduardo

125

Their "BIG" news 'KNOCKING' documentary

by DannyHaszard in

knocking documentary newsletter #1 summer 2005. .

witnesses.

stories of real families to humanize jehovah's witnesses.

Oroborus21

By the way folks,

This is not really NEW: Anyone ever heard of Marley Cole's book: Jehovah's Witnesses - New World Society

Same thing just a different medium.

I guess there are those of you that would have tried to prevent that book from being published or given it bad press before it came out too.

It's called a marketplace of ideas for a reason folks.

-Eduardo

22

Question to Americans

by Shazard in

does wt loose ground in usa, so thy try to "convert" other parts where people are not informed about jw and wt and probably coz of not knowing english, does not have access to ex-jw information?

Oroborus21

Think, it is more like thousands not millions who are leaving.....but for the thousands that leave they continue to add thousands...

overall growth or losses are not yet extreme but this will change in time, with major defections in the future if nothing changes..

Surprisingly, there are many in the US that haven't heard about JWs or really gotten to hear their theology..but overall the Tobacco analogy is probably about right.

It is not that the U.S. is experiencing major losses (just as in the U.S. there is only some drop off smokers or persons less who take up smoking than a couple of decades ago) - but it is a question of new markets opening up. I notice you are from Latvia. Countries like these and others that were formerly under the shadow of the Soviet Union are new markets for JWs and also in many CIS countries, religion itself has reawakened after being somewhat suppressed.

So growth in those countries only reflects these developments.

Still JWs have only a limited presence in many Muslim countries and in China so perhaps after Europe and Easter Europe - Asia, these other lands will be where the growth rates are higher in comparison to other countries.

One thing not to be overlooked is the power of the Internet and the access ot the WWWeb where much counter-info and info about JWs can be found. It is only relatively recently that internet access has become prevalent in the CIS or parts of Eastern Europe or even some countries like yours. When I visited Estonia a few years ago. I still had to go to an internet cafe and pay money for access and few people had it in their homes.

It might be a telling fact but I would guess that it is probably true that wherever the Internet access availability is low, the JWs will have higher growth.

And really it just makes common sense. If you have the Internet and these folks come by and want to study the bible with you and you never heard of them before aren't you going to look them up online at some point early on? I would think that one would.

-Eduardo

125

Their "BIG" news 'KNOCKING' documentary

by DannyHaszard in

knocking documentary newsletter #1 summer 2005. .

witnesses.

stories of real families to humanize jehovah's witnesses.

Oroborus21

Kid-A,

I think you misunderstand the real role of PBS (this reminds me of the whole Mapplethorpe controversy regarding NEA from a few years back).

there is a lot on PBS that I might not personally agree with. That is the beautiful thing about America and why I thank God every day that we don't live in a totalitarian nation that restricts a multiplicity of views.

Like someone said, there is a wealth of counter-JW info out there and now thanks to the Internet readily available to many people.

The point of PBS is to provide many viewpoints and material that is of interest to the viewing pubic. JWs are among the largest religious bodies in the U.S. and well known by many.

I don't expect the documentary to present the counter-information based on what I know about its creator or the website info. But it doesn't have to. That is what counter-speech and the marketplace of ideas is all about.

What concerns me is that there would be an effort to engage in a prior restraint or to bring bad press upon speech which hasn't even been "uttered" yet!

That is exactly what PBS, and the ideals underlying a democracy and republic like the United States of America is completely against.

As I say, this type of activity only mimics exactly one of the major problems within the JW faith - that of censorship and prior-restraint upon the freedom of speech.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you love free speech you have to allow other's to engage in speech that you might not want to hear - even if they speak only in half-truths or lies.

Everyone deserves a turn on the soapbox. Those who only wish to reserve the right to speak for themselves are no better than any tyrant who would do the same.

-Eduardo

13

Martin's Method of Giving a Testimony to JWs: Would this really work?

by Oroborus21 in

jw
friends

ok so i read in walter martin's the kingdom of the cults how he claims to use the following method to give a testimony to jehovah's witnesses who come to his door periodically, and frankly i find it a bit dubious, despite his claims that he has successfully done it many times.

he calls this method "subliminal seeding" (pg.

487-8) [a dubious title already]:.

Oroborus21

well I was hoping that more persons would give their opinion. As I said, I thought when I was reading about it, that it didn't seem too likely that JWs would just stand there and listen to both an opening and closing prayer by someone.

But I thought maybe if Martin was really charismatic or if just the way that he did it, that maybe some out of respect wouldn't leave or interrupt the prayer.

I think one of the key things about the technique is that he doesn't announce that he is going to do thus he doesn't give the JWs an opportunity to object, he just launches into it.

I would also think that if I called at a door and the guy invited me in and then after some introductins, he launched into a prayer and used the name Jehovah - that one of my first thoughts would be if he was an ex-JW.

Narkissos: the guy is in his own home. If a man can't pray in his own home, with strangers that he has invited in, then he can't pray anywhere.

Besides the point of the scripture is not about where the prayer occurs. The point of the scripture is to emphasize the personal relationship and more importantly not to worship (pray) to give an outward showing of righteousness just for the sake of appearing to be righteous.

but that is not why Martin was doing it. He was using a prayer - as a way of shutting up the Witnesses, and taking advantage of them as a captive audience to give them a 3 minute sermon.

On one hand it could be considered a bit dishonest (I won't say sacrilegious since I will presume that his prayers were sincere). But on the other hand, if he had to listen for 10 to 15 minutes of the Witnesses going on and trying to talk to him about their faith, it seems like an interesting (and somewhat humorous) way for him to give them a few minutes of his own perspective.

I suspect Martin's story a bit though, not just because of all the reasons I have already stated but also because, i would think that the publisher's would make a notation on the card about him and "this is they guy that prays" etc. and be prpared or not fall for this more than a few times.

But one thing to keep in mind too is that Martin doesn't give any indication of just when this used to be. perhaps this was back in the 60s or earlier or in the 70s or whenever...maybe the Witnesses that he encountered then reacted much differently then I would think they would now?

just thought the whole thing was interesting and wanted to hear others' opinions on the technique..

-Ed

125

Their "BIG" news 'KNOCKING' documentary

by DannyHaszard in

knocking documentary newsletter #1 summer 2005. .

witnesses.

stories of real families to humanize jehovah's witnesses.

Oroborus21

I find it pretty amazing that any of you would pre-judge something that you haven't even seen in its final form or even a rough-cut of. All you have is the description of the thing and what it has been described and what is from the website. But the thing isn't even done yet!

Why not wait to see how it actually turns out and then complain about it if you must? When you actually have facts or counter-arguments or flaws to point out. You don't know what the documentary will cover and what it won't, etc. and you are all gong off about it.

You lost a lot of credibility with this one Danny.

This kind of thing only gives opposers to JWs a bad name and proves that you are just as judgmental and biased as Jehovah's Witnesses can be. You are all no better because just as JWs do not permit certain speech and try to place a chilling effect upon certain speech - all of you that have posted in this thread advocating a prior-restraint or speaking out against this movie are doing exactly the same thing that the Society does.

-Eduardo

14

Who did Russell get his anti Trinity doctrine from?

by jwfacts in

a lot of russell's doctrines were taken from the adventists.

however, seventh day adventists worship the trinity, so i am wondering who russell took his anti trinity doctrine from.

christadelphians started in the mid 1800's, was it from them?

Oroborus21

thanks for the clarification Barry,

I found Dr. Martin's observations interesting in that he sees the SDA splitting into possibly three different veins. One along regular protestant orthodoxy, one that is taking on an evangelical perspective and one vein remaining sectarian (and in his words "cultic") (I presume for the non-trinitarianism).

I can just say that while most anti-SDA literature and even just regular folk, speak negatively of Ellen White, I was quite surprised of the extent and length that Martin went to "justify" her or to diminish the views regarding her, rather "pooh-poohing" those SDAists who hold her as a prophet.

I found it very odd that other such significant leader's in the various groups he discussed in his book, he had no problem with crucifying as a cult leader and false prophet, etc.

by the way, his treatment of the Church of Scientology in that book is a complete joke and the extent to which he goes about avoiding the cult label with reference to the CoS is laughable. Quite telling is his very first sentence of the chapter:
"The Church of Scientology is the most litigious religion in the history of churches founded in the United States."
But in fairness, since I was reading the latest edition, I don't know whether the original 1965 edition capitulated in such a way.
-Eduardo
(Martin died in 1989 and the latest edition seems to have been heavily edited and "updated" but supposedly remains true to Martin's writings and views.)