In all fairness, the situation was probably pretty stressful for the Elder also. Plus having a camera in your face can make anyone fumble around for their lines...
-Eduardo
Oroborus21
JoinedPosts by Oroborus21
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256
New Video of DF announcement at door
by inbyathread instarting a new thread so that everyone can find the link.. this is the video of the elders trying to act smart stupid.
http://www.savefile.com/files2.php?fid=5509435.
they will keep the file as long as it is downloaded once every 14 days.. enjoy
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256
New Video of DF announcement at door
by inbyathread instarting a new thread so that everyone can find the link.. this is the video of the elders trying to act smart stupid.
http://www.savefile.com/files2.php?fid=5509435.
they will keep the file as long as it is downloaded once every 14 days.. enjoy
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Oroborus21
This video kind of gave me the creeps. It was the way that the Elder's talk. Is it just me or do almost all Elders in situations like these have that "mild-sad tone" in their speech? Plus their accents (Wisconsin?) were a little similar to what the bros sound like back home in New Mexico.
I couldn't help but feel bad for Schnell-belly (or is it Schnively?) because despite the bravery, there was a trace of sadness for himself and pity for them that comes across unmistakably. I attribute the snideness/rudeness/sarcasm to masking the deep inner pain that he felt at the moment. Even when you know that you are in the right, and know that eventually your life will be much better, deep down it hurts to get DF'd.
Glad to see you are doing better now!
I think video could be a very useful tool. Can someone piece together a humourous montage of Witnesses "in service" and give it a banjo soundtrack?
By the way who was the Randy Schnively that they asked about? Was he part of this too or what?
-Eduardo
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What Bethelites Are Saying About The Layoffs
by wanda infor those who have friends there or who just left there, what is being said about this?
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Oroborus21
yeah, that is why it is good to come up with good ideas to document it (if it is truly happening that is) now with as much hard proof as possible. the rank and file JWs will miss it entirely and second-hand reports will be totally discounted by most.
Even first hand testimonies would be useful, but what would really be good is either secret memoranda that could be obtained or other documents which indicate that there is a downsizing plan. Also to monitor the property records if property is sold or spun off would be useful.
again, open to ideas as to what could be used to substantiate the claims being made.
-Eduardo
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Should Children Witness Childbirth?
by Frannie Banannie indue to a power outage, only one paramedic.
> responded to the call.
> very dark, so the paramedic asked kathleen,.
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Oroborus21
no and neither should fathers!
Though seeing my daughter born was pretty amazing.
-Eduardo
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Bad stuff you did in school
by Nosferatu inwhat kind of bad stuff did you do in school?
here's a small list of what i did:.
- white out things in textbooks and put something dirty in its place.
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Oroborus21
A group of us got swats (with a paddle) in 7th grade for having a spit-wad fight during a film in class. I also got swats in 3rd grade but for the life of me I can't remember why?
-Eduardo
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54
What Bethelites Are Saying About The Layoffs
by wanda infor those who have friends there or who just left there, what is being said about this?
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Oroborus21
Cellist,
I don't think it would prove anything by itself but only suggest or add to the evidence.
It doesn't make sense that if they were downsizing operations to ask for more young persons or even skilled persons to seek Bethel service. Such a talk or Service Meeting part has been a standard feature once every year or two since I have been associated. So let's wait and see if such a part appears over the next few years.
But again, that would only be suggestive (aka circumstantial evidence).
If anyone has any ideas about what sort of hard evidence would suffice OTHER THAN second-hand reports, let's hear them.
The question asked in the topic title was what are BETHELITES saying and the answer is NOTHING, unless you give credence to second-hand reports of what they are saying.
I haven't seen a Bethelite post here yet who was among these recent downsizes. And relying solely upon second accounts seems problematic to me. It is evidence but it isn't usually the best evidence.
I don't think I am asking for too much :-)
-Eduardo
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54
What Bethelites Are Saying About The Layoffs
by wanda infor those who have friends there or who just left there, what is being said about this?
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Oroborus21
I just wanted to add as I had been thinking about this before.
If the long-term plan was to reduce staffing it seems logical that the Society would no longer push for Bethelites or for new ones to come.
No business lays off already trained workers to hire new ones they have to train (unless there are costs savings like lower pay or benefits which is not the case in this instance).
Thus I think that a literature review and monitoring the Service Meeting parts over the next year or so will indicate whether this is so.
If the Society does have its usual part - as has been the pattern from time to time - of "Bethel Service is Great" etc. In other words, the usual compaign to drum up new Bethelites, to my mind that would run counter to the goal of reducing staff.
So let's see. The absence of any such part or campaign would support the rumor and the appearance of such would seem to discredit the idea that they were downsizing.
-Eduardo
PS: it is not an issue of playing Devil's Advocate. Only one of trying to uncover facts in an Internet world that is permeated with false rumours and half-truth reports.
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What Bethelites Are Saying About The Layoffs
by wanda infor those who have friends there or who just left there, what is being said about this?
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Oroborus21
Sorry Daniel, I had heard more, my mistake. the actual percentage isn't that important but even a 25% reduction is significant and I think would be noticeable and generate more direct reports.
I would prefer to see some actual evidence as opposed to "friend of a friend" or "my cousin Joey" reports. That's not too much to ask is it? why not ask your friends and family to post here with their own first-hand accounts? that would be a start.
It would also be nice to see actual changes in the real-estate as part of the rumour is a "shift of operations from Brooklyn to Patterson or Wallkill and other forms of hard evidence of the downsizing."
-Eduardo
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54
What Bethelites Are Saying About The Layoffs
by wanda infor those who have friends there or who just left there, what is being said about this?
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Oroborus21
Thus far the whole Layoffs/Downsizing has just been a RUMOUR. There hasn't been any hard evidence or obvious reductions in staff that indicate that the rumour is true. Some insiders are claiming that is true but until it happens - and it would be obvious - and yes, when it did happen we would begin to have direct reports from bethelites, former bethelites and persons in congregations with returning bethelites hitting this board and others (which whe haven't had) thus to answer your question of your post the answer is NOTHING - since there are no massive layoffs as of yet.
-EduardoPS: We are talking about massive downsizing not just the usual amount of rejects and drop-outs. There is the occassional person asked to leave or who leaves voluntarilly as is normal. There is always some turnover there. But what has been rumoured is reduction of staff in the magnitudes of 50% or more.
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to all jw apologist.....if your religion is so full of love then why....
by kittyeatzjdubs indid my mother move to florida without so much as a phone call or a letter letting me know?
i found out from my ''worldly'' aunt, 4 months after she had already left.
she's back in town for the week.
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Oroborus21
DTP:
(you are right about the forum being biased - Welcome anyway)
I believe that everyone should have the right to choose for themselves whether to associate with another person or not. So I do not think that if a person "shunned" (i.e.chose to not associate with) another person that such conduct makes it automatically hateful. Depending on the reasons the shunning or not choosing to fellowship might be Christian or it might not be - it could be pharisaic.
It is always surprising to me that some of the same people that castigate the whole practice of shunning are sometimes overheard complaining about the treatment of child molesters or other bad persons within the Org. Certainly, they would agree that if these ones were shunned it would not be an evil?
So the issue is one of circumstance not principle.
The problem that I see with the practice of Disfellowshipping, as currently practiced, are the following.
1. The PROCEDURE or PROCESS is not in harmony with the scriptures. The scriptures, whether the Hebrew-Aramaic (OT) or the Christian Greek (NT) clearly shows that the process was public all the way. Persons were brought before the city gate or in the public square. In the NT, the scriptures say that after personal private attempts to clear up the matter fail to "set it before the whole congregation."
The reasons for this scriptural procedure were two-part: 1) so that the circumstances could serve as an instructive example to all and 2) because each individual would be responsible for carrying out the ultimate judgment (whether to cast a stone in the OT or to treat the person as a "tax collector" or person of the world in the NT).
Therefore, it was necessary that the matter be heard by all, in public, so that each could be sure of the judgment and stand in agreement of its righteousness.
IN CONTRAST, today's procedures within the Org are as you know held in secret tribunals - with the facts of the matter retained and compartmentalized and generally screened from the whole congregaton. In effect the decision to stone or to treat as a worldly person is made by a few persons but the JUDGEMENT is expected to be carried out by all. This is wrong in every sense.
Simply put the only reasons for such a secretive process iare 1) the fear of litigation in our modern society, 2) fear that the judgment might not be righteous or the correct one and 3) fear that in some cases such as "apostacy" etc. the underlying viewpoints of those being judged might contaminate the whole congregation.
Again these reasons are wrong in every sense.
Finally aside from the secrecy, the process is inherently flawed because it is open to too much private interpretation by the tribunal elders and even politicized. We don't have to read too many stories of elder's sons or daughter's getting away with a slap on the wrist for matters that others get crucified for to understand that. Problems like these might be cured by making the process open.
2. The Second problem with the current Disfellowshipping practice is that it is not a matter of personal choice. The decision has been made for us and we are all expected to just comply with it or risk disfellowshipment ourselves.
This is not only unscriptural it is overly paternalistic. Each of us as Christians are supposed to develop our own conscience to maturity and to be able to use our own bible-based wisdom and the mind of Christ to decide whether an associate is bad or good for us.
The bottom line is that instead of just paying lip-sevice to it being supposedly a personal choice - it must be made to be an actual conscience matter and persons who choose to associate with persons who others have chosen not to associate with should not be automatically punished (though some may choose not to associate with them in turn). In order to be a true conscience matter, however, one would need to know the facts and that means correcting the process.
3. The practice is not EFFECTIVE.
DFnig is not a deterrent to wrongful conduct - it only pushes it "underground." Those persons, sometimes young people, who say that but for possibly getting DF'd they would choose to engage in sex, get a tattoo, or whatever the choice may be are clearly not manifesting the "correct" view in the first place. (e.g. they don't see the badness or wrongness of premarital sex). Perhaps more importantly the underlying forces and stresses that are upon them are not resolved or mediated by the disfellowshipping policy, thus for many, these underlying forces or stresses eventually overwhelm their concern or the DF consequence and they engage in the proscribed action anyway.
As for any who get reinstated, we never really know if it is because they have repented (other than not doing the act or acts again) or whether they were motivated to give such an appearance because of being DF'd. Thus its usefullness as a rehabilitative measure is suspect.
Likewise, it is a strange paradox that we often blame the one disfellowshipped for transgressing because they were "spiritually weak" or had drawn away from the congregation, etc. yet the supposed cure is to put them out of it?! It would seem that the correct action would be to pull such sinners further into the congregation, offering them more love and counsel and fellowship so as to help them correct their actions or life course.
4. Disfellowshipping is problematic and questionable for some issues such as "apostasy", smoking, etc.
Again, these things come back to the main points above. Each Christian should hear what the person is promoting or learn what their conduct is (going to another church, celebrating Christmas, etc.) and decide for themselves whether association with such person(s) will be upbuilding or harmful.
In the area of apostasy especially the practice is often used as means of control and as a means of prior restraint and to silence legitimate criticism. All of which gives fuel to opposers and critics of the Organization - not too mention hampering development and reformative efforts from those who see the need for change and desire such change.
These are just some areas of concern. I have others but you get the idea.
Yes, I agree with you that in principle one should be able to choose their associates. But as it stands today, the practice of disfellowshipping does not allow for such true personal choice. Instead it is a tyranny of the mnority and a substitution of the judgment of a few "elders" in place of the exercise of one's sharpened Christian conscience.
-Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.