about 7 years for me...but I had pre-Internet doubts and questions too...
-eduardo
Oroborus21
JoinedPosts by Oroborus21
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17
A Poll for all to participate in:
by Honesty in.
how many jw's visit this site and remain 'in good standing' in the 'christian (their word not mine) congregation of jehovah's witnesses after six months of perusing various topics?.
i didn't, how about you?
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ESSENTIAL READING - Steven Hassan "Combating Cult Mind Control"
by jwfacts ini have done a lot of reading on the internet about mind control, which often summarised hassan's book, but nothing came close to how interesting his book is.
i was taking notes until i realised that every page said something that applied to the watchtower society.
what makes the book effective is that hassan was a moonie, so it does not seem to be an attack on the wts, so can be read by a jw without being offensive to them.. even if you are no longer a jw this is essential reading to help you get over the experience.
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Oroborus21
I enjoyed reading this book also. But what I found remarkable was how different the culture and environment is of Jehovah's Witnesses than the one that Hassan describes as he describes the Moonies and a few other cults he lists in the body of the text.
It is interesting to note that Hassan never lists JWs as a cult, even though he does list some other groups, in the body of the text and the only reference at all to JWs is in the appendix and it is a reference to some counter-JWs sources.
In considering Hassan's BITE methodology it is readily apparent that only to a mild extent can the Information Control prong be made applicable to Jehovah's Witneses. All of the other prongs are at best a real stretch.
Your reference to Lifton's Criteria of Thought Reform and Totalist Psychology is interesting but you may want to do more research before you try to apply it to the culture of Jehovah's Witnesses (or even subscribe to it at all).
I have seem many people, after a superficial reading about Lifton's Criteria, find some analogy to Jehovah's Witnesses or even try to apply the criteria to the culture of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Unfortunately such persons haven't done their homework and fail to understand Lifton's research and findings completely.
First, to some extent each criteria could be said to be applicable to virtually all systems of belief.
Second, Lifton's own findings and conclusions are usually misunderstood and overlooked in the following ways:
1) Lifton based his system on study of Korean War prisoners of war and the specific circumstances of that situation. (And incidently, the population of the study was a tiny amount of POWs, which is very detrimental to any conclusions meant to be applicable to larger populations.)
2) Second, Lifton and his fellow research found that only 2 of the subjects showed some sort of "attitude change" (i.e. that the totalistic control "worked") and both of these two subjects changed their minds and reiterated their democratic values once they were safe and no longer POWs. (Also Lifton concluded that these two persons had predispositions before they were forced into the controlling situation, in that they were open to the ideas of communism before becoming POWs)
3) Finally, and most importantly and what is often overlooked by people is that Lifton concluded that his Criteria/Totalistic control can possibly work ONLY where the situation is one of extreme conditions, especially involving physical confinement and tortureIt thus goes without saying that trying to apply Lifton's Criteria or find a Totalistic environment based upon his criteria within Jehovah's Witnesses is a farce.
Below is just a snippet from the Wikipedia entry with some important parts highlighted for you; but you are free to Google and research Lifton's study and his original paper is online.
------Later, two studies of the Korean War defections by Robert Lifton and Edgar Schein concluded that brainwashing had a transient effect when used on prisoners of war. Lifton and Schein found that the Chinese did not engage in any systematic re-education of prisoners, but generally used their techniques of coercive persuasion to disrupt the ability of the prisoners to organize to maintain their morale and to try to escape. The Chinese did, however, succeed in getting some of the prisoners to make anti-American statements by placing the prisoners under harsh conditions of physical and social deprivation and disruption, and then by offering them more comfortable situations such as better sleeping quarters, better food, warmer clothes or blankets. Nevertheless, the psychiatrists noted that even these measures of coercion proved quite ineffective at changing basic attitudes for most people. In essence, the prisoners did not actually adopt Communist beliefs. Rather, many of them behaved as though they did in order to avoid the plausible threat of extreme physical abuse. Moreover, the few prisoners influenced by Communist indoctrination apparently succumbed as a result of the confluence of the coercive persuasion, and of the motives and personality characteristics of the prisoners that already existed before imprisonment. In particular, individuals with very rigid systems of belief tended to snap and realign, whereas individuals with more flexible systems of belief tended to bend under pressure and then restore themselves when the external pressures were removed.
Two researchers working individually, Lifton and Schein, discussed coercive persuasion in their analysis of the treatment of Korean War POWs. They defined coercive persuasion as a mixture of social, psychological and physical pressures applied to produce changes in an individual's beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors. Lifton and Schein both concluded that such coercive persuasion can succeed in the presence of a physical element of confinement, "forcing the individual into a situation in which he must, in order to survive physically and psychologically, expose himself to persuasive attempts." They also concluded that such coercive persuasion succeeded only on a minority of POWs and that the end result of such coercion remained very unstable, as most of the individuals reverted to their previous condition soon after they left the coercive environment.
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I should call the police on "SickofLies" JC committee
by kwintestal inanyone who listened to sol's recordings, would have heard at the end of the first recording of the second appeal meeting (the one that he showed up with a bearded jw named "sean") sol mentioning a second recording device that remained in a brief case recording the elders as they discussed sol's case without him present.
perhaps you are wondering what happened to those.
well, let me fill you in.. sometime while sol was dismissed from the group for the second time, the elders searched the brief case.
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Oroborus21
Howdy,
http://www.rcfp.org/taping/ (Note: these seem to be in reference to taping phone calls. need to review taping in-person conversations) -Eduardonot sure of Canadian law on the subject but I bet you could find out...
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Alternative Service "New Light" 1996 - Reaction
by dozy inare there any threads or web pages that give some feedback on the reaction to the downgrading of military alternative service from no-no to "conscience matter" in '96?
(i've read franz's comments on the change.
) if i had been in prison for 2 or 3 "prime" years on the back of a policy that then subsequently changed , i would have been furious.
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Oroborus21
I rememer when we were discussing this in my congregation, (the subject of the watchtower study was essentially to do one's civic duty if your conscience allowed and that we should do our civic duty) that my comment was that although we don't have Alternative Military Service requirements in this country, that we do have a comparable situation of jury duty and that in light of this information we should each make sure that we do jury duty unless of course the matter is something our conscience would not permit us to be jurors on (e.g. capital crime).
that went over like a lead balloon and the next comment was from an elder who said that we had some past articles on jury duty already...
-Eduardo
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Do you have a motto in life?
by lovelylil indoes anyone out there have any wise words for us to live by?
a favorite motto?
please share your wisdom if you don't mind.
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Oroborus21
it isn't a motto but I really like Seneca's observation:
Non Magnum Ingenium Sine Qua Fuit Dementia
(might have gotten some of that latin wrong)
which translates into: "There is no great genius without some touch of madness"
I do try to live by two precepts which are Balance and Moderation in all things....
and I think that the wisest course and the best course is usually the one which is Kind....
People who know me say I am a very kind person.
(People on JWD say I am an asshole )
-Eduardo
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Attended the Circuit Assembly - the work IS slowing down.
by jgnat inonly two baptisms, two, count 'em.
both were obviously children of jw's.
the last circuit assembly there were at least a dozen.
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Oroborus21
yeah Bstndance. that was one of the coolest assembly halls ever. it had a total circular stage but they always had some sections blocked off so you could never sit behind the speaker. the funkiest thing about the place was that everything inside looked farther than it actually was so you would like start to walk around to a friend and if you weren't paying attention you would end up walking all the way around before you knew it. there were also some very cool murals in the lobby, i think of Revelation and such. the baptismal pool was small but nice. it was a really nice setting for an assembly hall....
-Ed
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I should call the police on "SickofLies" JC committee
by kwintestal inanyone who listened to sol's recordings, would have heard at the end of the first recording of the second appeal meeting (the one that he showed up with a bearded jw named "sean") sol mentioning a second recording device that remained in a brief case recording the elders as they discussed sol's case without him present.
perhaps you are wondering what happened to those.
well, let me fill you in.. sometime while sol was dismissed from the group for the second time, the elders searched the brief case.
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Oroborus21
Willy, you took my thoughts.....
reality check folks, the police will first laugh at you, next tell you that they got a domestic disturbance call, an assault and two reports of a prowler to check out, and finally tell you to get a life....
Also, you might want to look into the legality of the situation in the first place. Contrary to what I saw AuldSoul write in another thread, while KHs may be public places during normal business hours, during a Judicial Committee meeting, where they have excluded others, and laid out a policy of privacy, including asking whether you are making a recording (a routine question), they have an expectation of privacy. Under these circumstances, you may wish to verify that the law allows you to record such conversations without at least one of the other party's knowledge. You might find that you are the one fhat violated the law, and if that is so, a court (and the police) is going to say you have unclean hands yourself and are not entitled to anything.
-Eduardo
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Pink slips at Bethel
by beavis indoes anyone still have any friends at bethel?
it seems that there is a massive layoff at bethel in all three american complexes.
the layoff is supposed to affect everyone between the ages of 35-50 or maybe 60. i feel sorry for persons who chose to stay there, they gave up going to college, possible job offers or making a decent amount of money, having children, the list can go on and on.
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Oroborus21
Looking_Glass,
First, considering the economic cost of having to pay workers' comp insurance, upon the WTS, it seems inconceivable that it would not have appealed.
Secondly, considering that the "judge" almost certainly got the ruling wrong, it further seems inconceivable that the WTS would not have appealed.
Third, as cited in the article the WTS spokesman said that the WTS would appeal.
Finally, even if no appeal was filed, there would be some record of it, noting that no appeal was filed.
I have had the same trouble as you in finding out anything more about the case. Again if anyone has more info, let us know? I am thinking of emailing the newswriters to see if they followed up on their own story or not.
-Eduardo
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Pink slips at Bethel
by beavis indoes anyone still have any friends at bethel?
it seems that there is a massive layoff at bethel in all three american complexes.
the layoff is supposed to affect everyone between the ages of 35-50 or maybe 60. i feel sorry for persons who chose to stay there, they gave up going to college, possible job offers or making a decent amount of money, having children, the list can go on and on.
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Oroborus21
Why are you looking for proof about the layoffs, Eduardo? Seems like an exercise in futility to me....it's not as if the WT is going to have an article about it. If they did, I can't imagine it being anything more than an article full of denial, minimization, and diversion.
Why wouldn't a person want to see some tangible evidence of what amounts, to this point, nothing but rumour and speculation?
Of the many written documents alluded to by some, none of these documents have been actually produced.
So far all we have are friend-of-a-friend type claims and persons claiming to have heard direct statements or received direct reports from Bethelites.
Additionally, turn-over at Bethel is a constant feature and people have always been asked to leave. Simply because a few are asked to leave, it doesn't indicate "massive layoffs" as has been speculated.
The adoption of new technologies and automated printers will result in a reduction of staff - that seems simple enough.
As for proof, no I am not expecting any articles in the Watchtower or Awake!, unless the Brooklyn Bethel HQ is abandoned (sold off) entirely and relocated to Patterson.
However, one potential proof might be (even for gradual reduction over months or years), might be the selling off of residential housing property in Brooklyn. (Unfortunately we have contradictory reports of sell-off of some property but new construction or plans for other housing.)
Other evidence might be direct reports of former Bethelites together with their documentation.
A third area of evidence might be the absence over the next couple of years of any "pitch" within the Society's publications for new Bethelites. Generally such a pitch occurs at least every couple of years if not annually. Although some have claimed that it is the old-timers being laid off, it still would not make sense that the Society would call for new Bethelites.
The fact is that there are a number of contradictory reports and rumours circulating. Some say it is the old-timers being laid off, some say it is the newbies, some say it is the ones with higher education and skills that are being retained. Some say the lay offs are gradual (in which case how does that differ than the usual trickle and turnover?) and some say that the layoffs are going to be occurring at a more dramatic speed.
My only point is to be somewhat sceptical about all of these rumours and the so-called "massive Bethel layoff" and to urge that more evidence be brought forth before such rumors are given the foundation of truth.
-Eduardo
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Pink slips at Bethel
by beavis indoes anyone still have any friends at bethel?
it seems that there is a massive layoff at bethel in all three american complexes.
the layoff is supposed to affect everyone between the ages of 35-50 or maybe 60. i feel sorry for persons who chose to stay there, they gave up going to college, possible job offers or making a decent amount of money, having children, the list can go on and on.
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Oroborus21
Still waiting for proof, more than just anecdotal evidence, of the "massive layoffs" at Bethel....By the way SilentWatcher, I have been meaning to inquire....has there been any further development in the Worker's Comp case/situation? (See the old thread on JWD) It was stated in the news article that the WT appealed the decision and according to the NY WC board webpage, it should have been scheduled and the rehearing should have been held by now.
Does anyone in New York know anything further about this case/ruling? I never saw it posted on the NY WC board webpage.
-Eduardo
PS: the term "pink slips" shouldn't be confused with the same term (archaic) for the ownership papers, title of an automobile or for sexy undergarments for that matter.