Posts by mustang

I wrote most of the body of this a few years ago thinking it might come in handy someday. I actually sent it to my local body of elders after they invited me to meet with them to face charges of apostacy last December. I have not heard from then since. I have not heard that any announcements have been made regarding me.

Bob

======================================

I have decided that I will not formally disassociate myself from the P________ Congregation of Jehovahs Witnesses or from Jehovahs Witnesses in general. I came to this decision for several reasons. First, there is nothing I see in the Bible that calls for a formal letter of disassociation in my situation, or any other. It seems to me that the provision of formal disassociation is a matter of convenience for the legal department of the Watchtower Society rather than serving any real religious purpose. It allows people to be pigeon-holed into nice neat little categories rather than dealing with the real issues involved. Also, I have no problem with the P________ Congregation or its members. My disagreement is with certain actions, policies, teachings and writings contained in publications that are produced and in oral teachings promulgated either individually or collectively by the Governing Body of Jehovahs Witnesses and its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc. and the International Bible Students Association.

The purpose of this letter is to clarify certain matters and to secure and protect what I consider basic human rights in dealing with agents of the multinational, multi-billion dollar Watchtower corporations.

Since you have asked me to appear before a judicial committee to face charges of apostacy, there are a few things that I must ask for and which I feel must be clarified before I will even consider meeting with a judicial committee.

1. I shall be notified in writing of the time, place and purpose of any meetings with a judicial committee.

2. I shall be notified in writing of the exact purpose of the meetings.

3. I shall be notified in writing exactly on whose behalf the judicial committee was convened and is acting: the P________ Congregation of Jehovahs Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jehovahs Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovahs Witnesses or its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.

4. If any other agency other than the one for whom the judicial committee has informed me they are acting for is consulted, reported to, or allowed to have any bearing on the outcome of the judicial process, I will consider the judicial committee as acting in the their behalf.

5. I shall be notified in writing as to my status as a member of any and all of the organizations for which the committee is acting or to which the committee will report.

6. I insist that the judicial committee immediately cease, and in the future desist from any actions toward or against me in behalf of any corporation or organization of which I am not a member.

7. I shall be notified in writing of any accusations against me, the names of persons making such accusations and the substance of any evidence against me.

8. I shall be notified in writing of any and all of my rights and responsibilities involved in the judicial process.

9. I shall be given sufficient time between notification of any meetings with a judicial committee and the time of the actual meeting to prepare a response to any accusations.

10. I shall be allowed to have one person of my choice present during all meetings between me and the judicial committee as an observer. Since I think there is good reason to believe that the judicial committee may consult with one or more lawyers, specifically those employed by the Legal Department of Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Incorporated, the person of my choice may also be a lawyer.

11. During the meetings with the judicial committee I and/or my observer will be allowed to take whatever notes we feel are necessary.

Additionally, if the judicial committee takes any judicial action against me :

12. I will not recognize any action taken by the judicial committee as valid unless it is communicated to me in writing, stating the exact nature and reason for the action.

13. In this written communication the judicial committee must state exactly on whose behalf they have taken the action, specifically the P________ Congregation of Jehovahs Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jehovahs Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovahs Witnesses or its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.

14. If the judicial committee has stated that it is acting only for the P________ Congregation of Jehovahs Witnesses, it is enjoined from notifying any agency outside the congregation of their action. If the judicial committee or anyone acting in their behalf notifies of reports to anyone outside the P________ Congregation of Jehovahs Witnesses, I may take any appropriate legal action.

15. I may appeal any action taken by the judicial committee.

16. Before I will meet with an appeal committee, that committee must notify me in writing of the names of all of the members of the appeal committee and who each one represents: the P________ Congregation of Jehovahs Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jehovahs Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovahs Witnesses or its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named

17. There shall be no contact between the judicial committee and the appeal committee other than to inform them of the time and place of my meetings with them. If I determine that there is any contact, communication or attempt on the part of any of the members of the original judicial committee or anyone acting on their behalf to, in any way prejudice or sway the appeal committee, I will insist that a new appeal committee be formed.

18. I shall be notified in writing of any and all of my rights and responsibilities involved in the appeal process.

19. I shall be allowed to have one person of my choice present during the all meetings between me and the appeal committee. Since I think there is good reason to believe that the appeal committee may consult with one or more lawyers, specifically those employed by the Legal Department of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Incorporated, the person of my choice may also be a lawyer.

20. During the meetings with the appeal committee I and/or my observer will take whatever notes we feel are necessary.

21. I will not recognize any action taken by the appeal committee as valid unless it is communicated to me in writing, stating the exact nature and reason for the action.

22. In this written communication the appeal committee must state exactly on whose behalf they are taking the action, specifically the P________ Congregation of Jehovahs Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jehovahs Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovahs Witnesses or its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.

23. If the appeal committee has stated that it is acting only for the P________ Congregation of Jehovahs Witnesses, it is enjoined from notifying any agency outside the congregation of their action. If the appeal committee or anyone acting in their behalf notifies or reports to anyone outside the P________ Congregation of Jehovahs Witnesses, I may take any appropriate legal action.

24. I understand that if I am disfellowshipped by the judicial committee and the disfellowshipping is upheld by the appeal committee that I am, at that point, no longer considered to be one of Jehovahs Witnesses. I also understand that it is
necessary to make a brief announcement that I have been disfellowshipped. From then on, I will consider any attempt to convince by speeches, talks or teaching; to coerce by implied or actual threat of similar judicial action; or to encourage by private counsel or suggestion any of Jehovahs Witnesses to treat me differently from any other person that is not one of Jehovahs Witnesses to be a serious violation of my civil rights and I may initiate any legal action, civil or criminal that I deem appropriate. This includes any attempt to convince by speeches, talks or teaching; to coerce by implied or actual threat of similar judicial action; or to encourage by private counsel or suggestion any present Jehovahs Witnesses to shun or avoid me, cease or otherwise modify their doing business with me, or terminate or otherwise abrogate any lease, rental, mortgage, or any other legal agreement that I may presently have with them. I may consider such to be an infringement of free trade and may initiate appropriate legal action.

25. I consider any communication between the members of the judicial committee and myself and the appeal committee and myself to be ecclesiastically privileged. Any attempt to reveal the substance or tone of those communications to any other person or group will be considered by me to be a breach of that privilege and may result in legal action. This includes any announcements beyond the fact of my disfellowshipping, speeches, talks, or any other communication, written or oral, public or private.

I fully realize that you may be unwilling or that the Watchtower corporations will not allow you to comply with the preceding.

I respectfully await your written response."

Edited by - mustang on 21 July 2002 14:13:18

18

Please review my "Disassociation Letter&qu...

by 67mustang in

jw
friends

i am sending it on monday, does anybody have any advice or revisions in mind?

july 22, 2002 .

dear friends, .

mustang

On OUTLAW's thought: FADE AWAY is probably preferrable. That is UNLESS you want to fight and make a really splashy exit.

Mustang

Disclaimer: nothing that I write or utter is to be considered legal advice. Consult proper counsel for such matters.

Further, all that I write or utter, is protected by religious freedom under the 1st Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as the "free exercise" and "freedom of speech" clauses.

18

Please review my "Disassociation Letter&qu...

by 67mustang in

jw
friends

i am sending it on monday, does anybody have any advice or revisions in mind?

july 22, 2002 .

dear friends, .

mustang

Amen to Blues Brother's: IT WILL FALL ON DEAF EARS. Those 20 page epistles about doctrinal differences are a real waste. As someone else indicated, they (Elders) are told in School not to 'GIVE THEM A FORUM".

So, that is further reason for the DO IT BACKWARDS theory. If you want it heard, send it to the congregation FIRST. It should only take a dozen or so letters. They couldn't stop the gossip at that number.

Mustang

Disclaimer: nothing that I write or utter is to be considered legal advice. Consult proper counsel for such matters.

Further, all that I write or utter, is protected by religious freedom under the 1st Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as the "free exercise" and "freedom of speech" clauses.

18

Please review my "Disassociation Letter&qu...

by 67mustang in

jw
friends

i am sending it on monday, does anybody have any advice or revisions in mind?

july 22, 2002 .

dear friends, .

mustang

67 Mustang,

Good to meet you.

Well, there are two theories on this: DO IT (DA) & DON'T DO IT!!! Many say "dont play their game" or "dont go by their rules".

Frankly, I follow this approach. I have been reviewing the law and find that their view of things is not the only approach. They do have you "sewed up" because they have done the legal groundwork and you have no clue that you would every need to counter it.

I do like your approach in this respect:

"I was baptized when I was 16 years old under the assumption that if I didnt I would be kicked out of the house, some are very unbalanced and fanatical about their beliefs." & "Nobody should force religion on someone, thats what my brother did and Im certain that Jesus did not."

This sort of thing should be said. In fact you can go further and state that your Civil Rights were violated. You could consider having a Lawyer send your request as a formal Lawyers Letter. That does not necessarily mean that you would carry out any further action. However, I have found that to be a touchy subject and most shy away from such thoughts.

The "mushroom hunting" instance actually bordered on kidnapping!!! California Stalking Law could make some of the things JWs do a borderline case that is CRIMINALLY ACTIONABLE. When I say these things, nobody wants to hear them.

In my personal case, if my father lived in California, he passes the criteria to be prosecuted. Well, I wouldnt do that, but it is useable to put him in his place and perhaps stop his Harassment.

And yes, some of the stuff they do is Harassment and borders on being criminally illegal. THEY DONT REALIZE THIS. Add to this that LAW's AND ACCEPTANCE OF CERTAIN BEHAVIOR IS CHANGING.

On the other hand, the thought process goes: DON'T DO IT BY THEIR RULES.

I will post the "DocBob" "I ain't going to DA myself" letter. DocBob gave me permission to do so and I periodically put it out there. It will be a separate Post in this thread.

It might be interesting to send your letter and NOT DA yourself. Still say keep away from me, leaving it in limbo. They will do something anyway. If you pose Legal Action, they are supposed to call the Legal desk in Brooklyn. You could leave that hanging and it will unsettle them. They might just "mark" you and leave it at that.

I personally would NOT DO IT THEIR WAY. However, without Legal Counsel and a long study of that approach, your use of the "conventional approach" is perhaps the best course. Following is a form of the other approach, for your consideration.

Actually, I like Francois's comment. DO IT BACKWARDS: don't send it to the Elders. SEND IT TO AS MANY OF THE PUBLISHERS AS YOU CAN GET ADDRESSES. Let the Elders find out about it 2nd or 3rd hand!!!!

IN FACT, THAT WOULD BE THE PROPER WAY TO DO IT. Screw THEIR rules!!!

Consdidering the propensity for JWs to gossip, they will never be able to put the genie back in the bottle!!!!

MUSTANG

Disclaimer: nothing that I write or utter is to be considered legal advice. Consult proper counsel for such matters.

Further, all that I write or utter, is protected by religious freedom under the 1st Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as the "free exercise" and "freedom of speech" clauses.

Edited by - mustang on 21 July 2002 14:0:13

17

Picky-Ass Christian thrift store

by TR in

jw
friends

today, i went to drop off some donated items at a christian thrift store.

(nw christian) before i went, i called them to ask what they would accept.

when i got there, the two that unload the free items that i was to donate hemmed and hawed and said, "well i don't know...." now, this wasn't junk, people.

mustang

I know why the local Goodwill's take ANYTHING. I go by the Goodwill main warehouse all the time. The trucks leave there (headed STRAIGHT FOR MEXICO) looking like VW's w/ a 20 foot boat on top. Oh, they are safe; steel railing and all. But they still rate a ticket for CREATIVE LOADING.

Mustang

Edited by - mustang on 16 July 2002 22:33:59

7

Exploding Dogs: Not Panorama related...

by The_Bad_Seed in

jw
friends

.

http://www.explodingdog.com.

i can't stop looking at these pictures...amazing...

mustang

I was expecting something involving a microwave oven....

Mustang

17

Picky-Ass Christian thrift store

by TR in

jw
friends

today, i went to drop off some donated items at a christian thrift store.

(nw christian) before i went, i called them to ask what they would accept.

when i got there, the two that unload the free items that i was to donate hemmed and hawed and said, "well i don't know...." now, this wasn't junk, people.

mustang

Yes; can't remember which one, but I think it was the Salavation Army. I had some desks to get rid of when closing my "secondary" business. Well, i discovered desks would have to be given away (glut on the market); so we called the thrift stores. The picky one would not take them UNLESS THEY WERE SALEABLE AS AN ANTIQUE!!!

Mustang

BTW, I'm gonna grade you with a "G" on the title; good work. We won't bother with the W or I.

19

New rules from WTS to restrict use of internet?

by Nowfree in

jw
friends

i know of a presiding overseer who has recently got rid of the modem and internet connections on his pc.

the reason given was that he didnt use it enough to make the monthly expense worthwhile.. but i wonder?.

have there been any local needs items or talks recently about whether it is wise to use the internet?.

mustang

"The word 'Internet' triggers a Pavlovian response among JWs to stop listening. This just shows how powerfully the WBTS controls the minds of its followers.

....Or, if you like, mention it for fun and see what happens; I guarantee that you will get the same programmed reaction every time. "

Use a cross for vampires or keep a silver bullet in the revolver, wolfbane for werewolves and say INTERNET, INTERNET, INTERNET when encountering a JW.

Yes, always be prepared.

Mustang Irreverent Class

Edited by - mustang on 7 July 2002 20:5:15

Edited by - mustang on 7 July 2002 20:7:49

3

Do-It-Yourself Do-Not-Call Chaos

by metatron in

jw
friends

put an ad in the local paper - "do you want jw's.

to stop coming to your door?

tell them to send a letter with an order to stop such.

mustang

That's RETURN VISIT's, not Motor Homes!!!

It can get worse in California. Check out this link:

http://www.esia.net/State%20Stalking%20Laws.htm

Look at California Law, but compare it to your states Law.

1) If someone ANNOYS you TWICE, it is started. It is best to let it go on a little longer and demonstrate the "pattern" and "course of conduct". (Yep, "course of conduct", something we hear in Dub lectures is IN THE LAW.)

2) You have to achieve a "credible threat". In my instance, the person has been investigated for Spousal Abuse. Thats good enough. There are numerous other possibilities...

OK, this one is serious.

1st offense- 1 yr. in County, unless a Restraining Order was violated, then 2-4 in State

2nd offense- 2-4 yrs. in State "pen"

3rd offense- well, California has the Three-Strikes Law... that is LIFE!!!

So, RVs could get REAL SERIOUS in California.

Mustang

Edited by - mustang on 7 July 2002 14:58:53