Posts by NeonMadman

57

Let us discuss HOLY

by Terry in

ever searched for nostalgia items, collectibles or antiques on ebay, craig's list or some such venue?.

a lot of junk has become valuable with the passage of time.. yes, junk.. gradually it seemed to gather a mysterious inflation of valuation.. the items themselves receive wear and tear but they way they are regarded takes on an almost awesome patina of wonderful.. .

i'll give you an example.. i loved to play cowboy when i was a young kid; especially gunslinger/fast draw style.. my favorite guns were made by stallion.

NeonMadman

There were countless writings by innumerable persons foisting their opinions off as heavenly and nobody paid any attention.

True enough. However, that does not appear to have been the case with the documents of the New Testament. They were copied far and wide, very early in church history. The apostles and many of their successors became martyrs for what they believed (and the apostles would have been in a position to know if they were lying - might not be worth dying for a lie that they knew to be a lie). It's simply absurd to suggest that the original autographs were simply unimportant and discarded as of no value, and there is no historical support for such a position. Every historical record we have tells us that the early Christians were zealous in spreading the Word.

Of course you will believe what supports your own view.

Funny, that's exactly what I was thinking when I read your original post in this thread. While I often disagree with your positions, I usually expect better arguments from you.

The original tablets of Moses? Gone.
The jar of manna? Gone.
The Ark of the Covenant? Gone.

How many verifiable artifacts do we actually have from corresponding periods of history? By "verifiable," I mean artifacts that can be specifically identified with recorded events or persons? Do we have Nebuchadnezzar's old toilet paper rolls? Perhaps a salt shaker that belonged to the Buddha? It seems to me that you are imposing a standard of proof for "holy" artifacts that you would not require of any other type of artifact or area of history. Holy or not, the vast majority of artifacts do not survive for thousands of years, especially when significant efforts are made to destroy them. You may recall that the Jewish Temple was destroyed not once, but twice and was looted of its valuables on other occasions . Is it possible that that might explain the missing "holy" artifacts, and not that someone simply thought they were junk and decided to recycle them?

57

Let us discuss HOLY

by Terry in

ever searched for nostalgia items, collectibles or antiques on ebay, craig's list or some such venue?.

a lot of junk has become valuable with the passage of time.. yes, junk.. gradually it seemed to gather a mysterious inflation of valuation.. the items themselves receive wear and tear but they way they are regarded takes on an almost awesome patina of wonderful.. .

i'll give you an example.. i loved to play cowboy when i was a young kid; especially gunslinger/fast draw style.. my favorite guns were made by stallion.

NeonMadman

You can't buy original autograph manuscripts of the Bible on Ebay....NONE exist because they had no VALUE in atuality OR somebody would have fought to preserve them. They were just more STUFF at one time.

Please. The Christian church, very early on, went through priods of vicious persecution where people were giving their lives to retain biblical manuscripts. Doesn't it seem more likely that the originals failed to survive the persecutions than that people who were willing to die for the Word of God decided they were of no value and used them as kindling?

34

The Faithful and Discreet WHAT?

by Cold Steel in

i'm sure this has been covered before, so please excuse me if it has.

my questions are:.

how do people know that they're part of the faithful and discreet slave class?how is seniority established?.

NeonMadman

How do people know that they're part of the Faithful and Discreet Slave Class?

The usually cited text is Romans 8:16: "The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God's children" (NWT). They just KNOW, because the Holy Spirit causes them to know. Unfortunately for the JW position, there is nothing in the context of that passage (or anywhere in Romans) that states or implies that such 'bearing witness' by the Spirit is characteristic of only a limited number of Christians, to the exclusion of other Christians. The two "classes" that Paul speaks about in Romans are those who live by the flesh (who are not of God and face condemnation) and those who live by the Spirit. No room in this chapter for earthly and heavenly classes.

How is seniority established?

I don't know that seniority is really relevant among the JW anointed.

How are they so certified by JW leaership?

They aren't. They simply declare themselves to be of the anointed class, generally by partaking of the elements of Communion at the Memorial. there are also a few internal forms (like pioneer and Bethel applications) where they may have to check off a box indicating which class they belong to.

Don't many people consider this sort of thing to be self appointment?

Yes, and I'm one of them.

Is one generally considered to be part of an elevated status to be in that class?

Yes and no. Many individuals among the "other sheep" class of JW's tend to give greater honor to those who profess anointing. However, recent statements in the Watchtower appear to be discouraging that. The organization has to walk a fine line in trying to prevent individual members of the F&DS class from gaining prominence in the congregations, while still maintaining the absolute authority of the F&DS as a group.

Is this class the only one that actually receives the emblems of the sacrament/communion?

Yes. And they take a purely symbolic view of Communion, so that they would see no actual presence of Christ in the elements, not even a spiritual presence as in the Reformed tradition. Those who profess to be of the "other sheep" class refuse the elements as they are passed among the congregation.

What if one or more of them claimed to receive a communication from God?

They'd probably either be regarded as nutcases or disfellowshipped as apostates, just like non-anointed Witnesses.

How does one become part of the Faithful and Discreet Slave leadership?

Years of faithful slavery and lots of brown-nosing.

How is one expelled from that class?

One is not expelled from the class as such, but anointed Witnesses can be disfellowshipped from the organization if they violate the rules, just like non-anointed Witnesses can. Should that happen to an anointed Witness who is later reinstated, that person remains part of the anointed class. Only Jehovah knows whether the person has become so hardened as to commit the unforgiveable sin, and if the person has done that, Jehovah needs to choose a replacement anointed person so that the number of 144,000 doesn't come up short. Apparently this happens a lot, because new anointed seem to be popping up left and right these days.

Hope this helps. I may decide to use the above material (anonymously, of course) on the Q&A page of my website (www.dispelthedarkness.org). Hope you don't mind if I use your questions, but I think they are a good series of questions for helping people who are not so familiar with the JW's to understand this doctrine.

17

How Prophecy Succeeds: Jehovah's Witnesses and Prophetic Speculation

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

what do you make of this recent article by george chryssides?.

http://www.equinoxjournals.com/ijsnr/article/viewfile/8147/pdf.

apparently the prophetic failure of jehovah's witnesses has been overdone by opponents.

NeonMadman

I'm printing out the article to read later, so I'm posting this based on a quick skim and comments that have been made here.

It does seem to me, though, that there is a sense in which prophecy has succeeded for the JW's. It has gotten them lots of new members and kept the existing members in a constant frenzy of works. As long as the members are convinced that Armageddon is right around the corner, they keep on slaving away and tend not to question things. When it starts to look like Armageddon might be a long way off, many start to scratch their heads and ask themselves why they are doing all this work, anyway? The prime example of the latter is the late 1970s, when the 1975 prediction had gone down the tubes and the numbers of publishers actually started to decrease for a few years.

That said, I'm not sure how anyone can make a credible defense of the Watchtower's prophetic record, in light of their 100% failure rate and their frequent claims to prophetic status, as well as the mandatory acceptance of each prophecy as it is issued under the threat of disfellowshipping.

11

Exchange of Literature between God's Organization and Babylon The Great

by garyneal in

jw
friends

i read a similar thread concerning scars that a boy got from and alligator and from his loving mother and how that was related to scars in our life from satan and god (jehovah).

reading this and other threads here that shows how witnesses use material from "babylon the great" for spiritual uplifting made me think of an couple of experiences my wife shared with me during her field service.. .

one experience was when she was out in service with her dad.

NeonMadman

I think it is just one of the urban legends that circulate endlessly throughout the org. I remember hearing several times as much as 40 years ago that it was not uncommon for clergymen in Christendom to get copies of the Watchtower and then crib material from it for their sermons. The implication was that the "spiritual food" in the magazines was of such high quality that even the evil clergy recognized it as a good source of ideas. Now that I have interacted with a fair number of churches, I'm quite confident in saying that any pastor, at least in an evangelical church, who was found to be getting his sermon material from the Watchtower, would almost certainly be quickly relieved of his duties.

14

Can a Baptist be an Apostate?

by cameo-d in

jw
friends

i never even heard of an "apostate" until a jw called me that.....and i'm not even a jw!.

anyway, i am wondering if "apostate" is a term exclusive to cult groups only, like jws, mormons, and scientologists.

i have never heard of a methodist or baptist apostate, but surely, there must be such a thing.. i have seen complaints where "apostate" xtians say they were kicked off websites that promote "mainstream xianity" or denominational religions, so there can never really be any deep discussions or debates on those sites.

NeonMadman

Among evangelical Christians, the term "apostate" is usually reserved for someone who professes Christianity for a time, then turns completely away from it (and generally, opposes it in some way). I've heard Bart Ehrman referred to as an apostate, because he professed Christianity for many years, graduated from Moody Bible Institute (graduation from Moody requires that you affirm your faith in a statement of basic Christian beliefs), went to Princeton Seminary and worked under Bruce Metzger in textual criticism, but now refers to himself as an agnostic and publishes books that attempt to debunk the accuracy of the Bible. A Baptist who becomes a Methodist would not be considered an apostate in most circles (and the few churches that might would likely be thought of as near-cultic), nor would someone who just happens to disagree with certain tenets of the faith but still professed belief in Christ. The application of the term normally requires a departure from Christianity in any form.

Last year, I left a Baptist church to join a Christian & Missionary Alliance church, but I am still very welcome at the Baptist church any time I visit, and have good friends there who would never think of shunning me. They do not regard me as having somehow departed from correct teaching, and, in fact, I was teaching their adult Sunday School classes right up till the week I left (and, I suspect, would be quickly tapped to do so again if I were to return).

23

R.Franz "Christian Freedom" Bk - Misuse of Disfellowshipping -WT Hypocrisy

by flipper in

jw
friends

just finished the chapter in ray's " christian freedom " book on " misuse of disfellowshipping .

i highly recommend anyone reading it as it has numerous experiences of individuals who were mistreated so unjustly by the wt society's rigid rules - many in spite of 40, 50, or 60 yrs.

of faithful alleigance to the wt society's rules.

NeonMadman

" If people do not want to stay they are free to leave.... I cannot understand why those disagreeing simply do not leave quietly . "

Yeah, just like people who become JW's quietly leave their old religion, without condemning or criticizing or knocking on the doors of people who still belong to that religion to tell them that they are wrong...

18

Ten Signs You Are an Unquestioning Christian!

by darth frosty in

jw
friends

http://i32.tinypic.com/j5k0if.jpg.

i'm sorry dont know how to embed a pic.

.

NeonMadman

10 Signs You Are an Unquestioning Atheist (I found this on another discussion board and thought it fit just fine here)


1 You think the statement “My linage derives from evolved lizards” is more logical then “A higher intelligence created intelligent life on earth, according to their kind.” 2 You don’t accept the idea of God, but you talk about him more then most religious zealots 3 You despise the idea of faith, but you have a hyper-abundant amount of trust in “time and chance” 4 You despise organized religion by being a part of an organized religion against organized religion. 5 You claim that religious people are brainwashed, but you spout off quotes from renowned atheists to defend your beliefs. 6 Your best defense to the idea that religious people cram their beliefs down people’s throats is to cram your beliefs down people’s throats (Richard Dawkins) 7 You say the Bible is utterly made up non-sense, then use stories from it to condemn God…who you claim doesn’t exist. 8 One of your favorite arguments against believing the Bible is that it was written by men, but you unquestioningly believe science text books…written by men 9 You get stark raving mad when someone says God (who doesn’t exist) will send you to Hell (a place that doesn’t exist), and use that as “evidence” that God doesn’t exist. 10 You deny the testimony of countless millions of believers, but trust the research of a few hundred atheist...and call that being "open-minded"

13

If I become a JW will I have to go door to door?

by Darth plaugeis in

of course not.

no one forces you to do that, it's totally your decision.. lol remember that!

!.

NeonMadman

Though it's arguable, the scriptures certainly tend to support the idea of door-to-door evangelizing. After all, how can you shake the dust off your feet at an unwelcoming house if you never approach any houses?
(Matthew 10:14) Wherever anyone does not take you in or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city shake the dust off your feet.

I think it's a bit much to read door-to-door evangelism into that text. The fact that they might have gone to some homes hardly implies that they would pick a street and systematically call at every house. I'm not saying it couldn't have been that way, just that you can't make a strong case for it from the Bible.

Even if you could establish with certainty that the early Christians preached from door to door, that wouldn't mean that it is the best or only system to use today. Christians back then rode mules and wore sandals; things are different now. There are much more effective ways to spread a message than trudging from house to house, especially in a society where unsolicited calls at the homes of strangers have fallen out of favor.

11

bethel rooms for rent

by DaCheech in

jw
friends

there was a letter posted on the congregation bulletin board.. it said that one can plan and put an application to rent brooklyn rooms for up to 3 days?.

anyone know the details?.

is contribution necessary?.

NeonMadman

there was a letter posted on the congregation bulletin board.

Ahem. You mean the information board, brother.

NeonMadman

Posts by NeonMadman

10 Signs You Are an Unquestioning Atheist