Listener,
Some of our pasture is on floodplain and about 20 feet next to the river is underwater as Cascade Mountain runoff fills the river. That affects value.
Posts by vienne
-
28JWLEAKS.ORG is back for 2019 with a Scandal
by jwleaks inyep, we are back after taking some extended time off.. the jwleaks.org website had been archived for some time.
i was concentrating on other jw-related projects in relation to say sorry.. but the governing body of jehovah's witnesses, who no longer claim to be infallible, decided that in their fallibility the best use of 'dedicated funds' would be to launch civil action against me in a us federal court.
to this end watch tower bible and tract society of pennsylvania, inc., sent their attorneys after me.
-
-
vienne
-
28
JWLEAKS.ORG is back for 2019 with a Scandal
by jwleaks inyep, we are back after taking some extended time off.. the jwleaks.org website had been archived for some time.
i was concentrating on other jw-related projects in relation to say sorry.. but the governing body of jehovah's witnesses, who no longer claim to be infallible, decided that in their fallibility the best use of 'dedicated funds' would be to launch civil action against me in a us federal court.
to this end watch tower bible and tract society of pennsylvania, inc., sent their attorneys after me.
-
-
vienne
Unless it's a Federal Court, no California court has jurisdiction in New York. I do not see how selling property is a scandal. Maybe I'm just dense, but that seems like a reach.
My husband and I own a small farm. We bought the property at ten dollars an acre about twenty years ago. Recent sales of similar property suggest it would sell for nearly 100 dollars an acre. Do I 'sin' if I now sell off the farm and take the profit? Is that a scandal? If it isn't a scandal for me to do so, how is it one for the Watchtower to do so?
Is it a 'sin' for me to ignore a California court with no jurisdiction in Washington State, where I live? That issue arose when my dad's mother died. Our lawyer simply reminded the State of California that they had no enforcement power over a Washington citizen.
-
224
How to sue the WT over shunning policy. It CAN happen!
by Bad_Wolf inthis is a very good document from a law school exploring religious freedom vs an individuals right to religious freedom without blackmail, pressure, etc, and also explores why certain lawsuits did not win and what it would take to win them.
https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=3827&context=penn_law_review.
a person born in, and whose parents or family pressured to shun because they simply left the religion, who has evidence of damages, etc, would likely have a good case if they find a good lawyer.
-
-
vienne
I would hate to have a court tell me that I must associate with or allow into my house someone I detest. Isn't banning 'shunning' the same thing? Individuals and groups have a right to choose their associates. Anger at being shunned does not erase that right.
In America, the right to form associations is a constitutional right. Implicit in that right is the right to forego association with others.
-
23
Old Goat
by vienne insome of you may remember old goat who used to post here.
he died last night in his sleep.
he was 92 years old.
-
-
vienne
He only added to our project by asking pertinent questions and adding insights drawn from his long experience within the Watchtower. He started attending meetings in the mid-1940s and was baptized in 1948. He served in various capacities and 'knew stuff.' I will miss him.
-
23
Old Goat
by vienne insome of you may remember old goat who used to post here.
he died last night in his sleep.
he was 92 years old.
-
-
vienne
Some of you may remember Old Goat who used to post here. He died last night in his sleep. He was 92 years old. And he was my friend. Until he was unable, we used to meet at a Starbucks and chat. He was a retired professor of history, tall but underweight. A gentleman.
-
4
My intro essay revisited
by vienne inhi everyone [even the person who always marks my posts thumbs down - snicker] i've added to and revised my introductory essay for separate identity volume two.
please read it and give me your thoughts.. thanks,.
rachael.
-
-
vienne
Hi everyone [even the person who always marks my posts thumbs down - snicker] I've added to and revised my introductory essay for Separate Identity volume two. Please read it and give me your thoughts.
Thanks,
Rachael
-
19
The Society is Blocking Research On their Web Site
by new boy init seems, you can not research many of the older publications on society's web site anymore.
for the obvious reasons, that they don't want people to go back and read about all the false prophecies, changing guide lines (new light that became old light that became new light once again) and the just plain stupid stuff they have said over the years.
i not quit sure what publications they have blocked.
-
-
vienne
Zeb, do you have the actual reference for that? Was it a WT letter? Which date? Can you post it?
-
57
WT Study October 2018....spinning ''layoffs'' into ''reassigning'' ex-Bethelites ''to the field''
by RULES & REGULATIONS inwt study october 2018. maintain inner peace despite changing circumstances.
lloyd and alexandra learn that they have been reassigned to the field, they at first felt sad.
after all, they had been serving at bethel for over 25 years.
-
-
vienne
sending someone who's been there for 25 years and is now aged into a world with which they have lost contact is a disreputable act no matter how you phrase it.
-
12
Printed vs Produced
by Rattigan350 inin the january 1, 2015 watchtower it says printing each issue 52,946,000 in 228 languages semimonthly.
in that 2016 #1 issue watchtower it says produced each issue 58,987,000 in 254 languages monthly.
what is the difference between printed and produced?.
-
-
vienne
no difference at all, as far as I can see ...
-
11
Partial rough draft
by vienne ini've posted a partial rough draft of my introductory essay for separate identity, volume 2. it is a work in progress and will change.
it has upset some watchtower adherents who read our history blog.
read it please and tell me if i've been unfair to the watchtower.
-
-
vienne
Phiz,
Thanks for your kind words. They’re really appreciated.
Slim,
Those are the ‘facts’ usually presented, but that’s not what the record shows. Here is what Russell and his contemporaries tell us:
Russell was familiar with preaching on prophecies before he met Jonas Wendell, a “Second Adventist” preacher in 1869. Henry Moore, the pastor of the Plymouth Congregational Church, the church Russell joined as a lad, was a student of the prophecies and preached on them. He left behind at least one printed sermon. Others within Russell’s early acquaintance in the Calvinist community also promoted prophetic speculation. Calvinists in Pittsburgh republished Archibald Mason’s speculations and date setting and remained interested long after Mason’s predictions failed. So Wendell’s preaching was not totally surprising to him. Wendell’s initial sermons were summarized in the Pittsburgh newspapers. And on that basis Russell would not be surprised by their content.
But what did Russell actually hear from Wendell in 1869? A careful reading of what Russell wrote on the matter suggests that he was most impressed with Wendell’s comments on predestination and hell-fire doctrine. Russell does not mention prophetic content, except in one later reference. But we know what Wendell preached in 1869. Though Wendell started preaching about 1873 early the next year, in 1869 he was pointing to that year as the probably end ‘to all things mundane.’ He tells us this in a World’s Crisis article. The 1869 speculation derived from Aaron Kinne, a Congregationalist clergyman who wrote in the 1830s. W. C. Thruman resurrected it, claiming originality for the ‘research,’ but reading his “Sealed Book Opened,” it becomes evident that he borrowed from Kinne. Thurman, a Brethren clergyman, became the darling of Second Adventists, particularly Advent Christians, and many of them adopted the 1869 speculation. What Russell first heard from Wendell was the last gasp of this belief. Then the next year he heard Wendell’s proofs that 1873 was the end of the age when the world would be consumed in fire.
We do not know how Russell received this. But there is enough evidence to suggest a reaction. By 1871 Russell was reading widely in prophetic literature. He was introduced to Storrs, Blaine, Dunn, Smith-Warleigh and a host of other Age-to-Come non-Adventist writers and to Seiss and to Richard Shimeall, a Presbyterian writer. From them he came to restitution doctrine, the belief that Christ came to restore paradise to the earth, not burn it up. And he came to believe in a two-stage, initially invisible parousia. This meant that speculation about world burning was, in his view, false doctrine. He writes about regretting the predictions of Wendell and Thurman and others. Who were the others? He does not say, but someone predicted the end for every year from 1869 to 2000. Among those who were or became his associates and acquaintances some pointed to 1874, 1875, 1876, 1877, 1879 and 1881. Some of these predictions were on questionable basis, even from Russell’s later viewpoints. Some were based on a faked Mother Shipton prophecy and one on a supposed measurement from the great pyramid, and one on a predicted conjunction of planets. Though much is made of Russell’s beliefs regarding the pyramid, he wrote that it was a poor basis for establishing Bible chronology, that it should only be used to support what can be derived from scripture. But that’s something said past the period we’re considering.
Did Russell oppose chronological speculation. It is often said that he did. What he wrote, however, is that because he believed in an initially invisible presence, the only way to know when it occurred was through Bible chronology. In this period his belief was: “It seemed, to say the least, a reasonable, very reasonable thing, to expect that the Lord would inform his people on the subject – especially as he had promised that the faithful should not be left in darkness with the world, and that though the day of the Lord would come upon all others as a thief in the night (stealthily, unawares), it should not be so to the watching, earnest saints.”
So it’s not a reliable chronology he rejected, but Adventist speculation that included world burning and seemed unreliable. He was looking for a reliable chronological framework. When he received Barbour’s Herald of the Morning in December 1875 (Not Jan 1876 as usually said) he thought he might have found one. He also saw that Barbour et. al. had adopted age to come belief, his belief system and thought they might have progressed beyond Adventism into ‘truth’ – enlightenment. He wrote to Barbour who wrote back that he and Paton had been Adventists but no longer were. That they had pursued other doctrine. The other doctrine was age to come, doctrine Russell had learned from Storrs, Stetson and a variety of others, some of whom he mentions directly and some we can surmise from available evidence. What made Barbour’s chronology different was that it was expressed not in Adventist terms that Russell would reject out of hand but in Age to Come/ Literalist / One Faith terms that matched Russell’s theology.
Did Adventism have an effect on Russell. He says it did, that it helped him to unlearn certain thing we can readily identify as Calvinist predestination and hell-fire. Did Russell believe he was adopting some form of Adventism by accepting Barbour’s redefinition of the events of 1873-1874? No. Instead he saw it as a step forward in his Age to Come belief in restored paradise. Should we see it as an Adventist influence? I think not. Russell did not adopt Adventist doctrine, and Barbour's chronology was not expressed in Second Adventist terms. The origin of the 1873-4 date was primarily in Anglican writings. Barbour even acknowledges this.