i'd like to make a good sticky thread here.
i'd like to challenge all of you brainiacs to list all the debunks to the many wrong doctrines of the wt.
i want it to be to the point and devestatingly obvious and solid.
Inform police of child molestation reports.
The Witnesses mistakenly use Deut. 17:6 and 1 Tim. 5:19 mention of having "two or three witnesses" to a sin to shield themselves from having to tell authorities of child molestation reports in the congregation. Deuteronomy no longer applies and 1 Timothy only applies to the congregation, not Caesar (secular law enforcement). Jesus said at Luke 20:25: “By all means, then, pay back Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.”
apparently the regular pioneers will be nominated by the body of elders, not bethel.
however, elders will have to send bethel a notification when a pioneer is nominated or removed..
If the French nommer is similar to the Spanish nombrar, then it means appoint. So apparently, French bodies of elders appoint and remove regular pioneers now.
the bible teach book uses the example of a math teacher who is challenged by a student who disagrees on how to resolve a math problem.
the teacher then lets him attempt to prove his point knowing that he can only fail.
the object of the exercise is to show the rest of the students that the teacher is right - that there is only one way to resolve the math problem....this is likened to jehovah letting satan exercise his power over the world so that the entire universe can witness his failure and that only jehovah's ways lead to happiness.... instead of maths, what if the teacher taught chemistry and a student would want to prove that the teacher is wrong when he says that certains chemicals can't be mixed without causing an explosion that would wipeout the school...would any sane, responsible, loving teacher allow such a student to experiment and wipeout the whole class just so the teacher can prove he was right?
The WT illustration is used to answer the question, "Why has God permitted suffering for so long?" But here's another flaw in the illustration: It only takes a few minutes to answer a math question, so why hasn't God ended suffering yet? The Witnesses can study with someone for just 6 months and convince them that God has the right to rule. So why has it taken more than 6,000 years to prove it to the angels? Shouldn't they be smarter than mere imperfect humans? Just how dumb are they?
Also, wouldn't the passing of so much time just prove the opposite about God? If the angels have an ounce of morality, wouldn't they be sickened by watching God stand by as he allows his children on earth to beat, rape and murder one another as he does nothing? Is God really helping his case or hurting it?
Or are the Witnesses really blaspheming the Almighty, making him look stupid and impotent, by their use of such an incredibly inappropriate illustration? Let's see know, the choices are: 1) Either the angels are slow and stupid 2) God is an evil father to allow his children to kill each other 3) or the Witnesses are blaspheming God with an incredibly inappropriate illustration that is demeaning to God? Hmmmm... which is the correct answer?
afternoon all,.
a bit on my background.
i studied with the jw's a while ago in my teens, was acitve in meetings, and all the other things good witnesses do.
mP: where is there any mention of homosexuality in Romans 1:26-27? I just read it again for the umpteenth time and I don't see it. As I mentioned above, gays and heterosexuals view this verse from two different perspectives. For example, gays know absolutely that homosexuality is not a choice. If sexuality is a choice for gays then it must be a choice for straights. But it isn't a choice for straights is it? Now it's true there are some who are bisexual and can go either way, and there are confused individuals who haven't determined what they are. But for genuine gays and straights there is no choice.
With that in mind, consider what Romans 1:26-27 says again. It says that women and men in that congregation ignored their natural sexuality and began having same-sex relations. In other words, Paul wasn't speaking about homosexuals, rather HETEROSEXUALS. Wow! Understanding this verse this way changes everything. But wait, what would cause heterosexuals to engage in same-sex orgies? It's right there in the context. Paul was writing about those who left the worship of God for the worship of idols. (see verses 23 and 25.) Same-sex acts in idol worship was not uncommon among some in the realm of the Roman Empire, which had swept up people of various backgrounds and Pagan persuasions as it extended its reach while conquering other lands.
This is the strongest "proof" some religionists have for their anti gay rhetoric, and yet when you realize it has nothing to do with homosexuals, nothing in the scriptures remain to uphold such hate and intolerance. Unlike some who say homosexuality is the biggest sin in the Bible, I see the worst sin as idolatry. What do you think? :)
afternoon all,.
a bit on my background.
i studied with the jw's a while ago in my teens, was acitve in meetings, and all the other things good witnesses do.
ttm1988: I sent you a personal message regarding your concerns about homosexuality.
Searril: I have a question for you: What exactly is self-explanitory about Romans? Some heterosexuals read Romans 1:26-27, for instance, and immediately assume it's referring to homosexuality. Yet, gays who read it know that it is impossible for it to be referring to them. Why is that? What do gays know about homosexuality that heterosexuals don't? But getting back to basics, what exactly is Paul referring to in those verses? What was happening in that congregation that prompted him to write the Christians there? Once you can explain in detail what happened in the Roman congregation, then you can attempt to make an application today. Otherwise, it is extremely dangerous to interpet the verses there without understanding them completely. As Peter stated at 2 Peter 3:16: "[Paul's] letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
i just saw the posting on the bible and abortion.
thou shalt not doubt whether a thing shall be or not be.
thou shalt not take the name of the lord in vain.
Other than the countless scriptures on taking innnocent life, we have this passage from the Epistle of Barnabus
Cold Steel, you are correct that their are many scriptures that warn about taking an innocent life. But your argument is flawed because you assume that just because a woman is pregnant, that fertilized egg cell within her is a human life. The Bible never states that to be the case. In other words, not even God believes that.
There are many arguments that could be made here, but the simpliest is this: True life does not require a host. If it requires being attached to the mother in order to live, such as an embryo, than it is not yet a life on its own. It is still the mother's life that sustains it, and thus a part of her body.
Remember, a female human is born with 1-2 million egg cells, with about 300,000 of them still available at puberty. Of those, only about 400 are released during her reproductive life. Even then, she may only give birth to a fraction of that number, if she has children at all. If there is a God, he would know that a woman would never use all the egg cells he put in her, much like he would know that men would never utilize the billions of sperm cells their bodies produce. Putting an egg cell and a sperm cell together does not in itself make a human life. It has to grow and transform into one, and then be able to survive on its own. Since the Bible is completely silent on this aspect, it is inappropriate and sacriligious to use it to support the anti-abortion movement.
As Paul wrote at 1 Cor. 4:6: "Do not go beyond what is written."
ohmygosh!!!
one of my friends who is a ms told me today that the elders have 'marked' me because i'm a reg.pioneer and i've decided to go to college next semester???!
he said he can't tell me anymore but to be careful---what the hell does 'mark' mean?
Actually, there is no scriptural basis for marking you for going to college, because there is no scriptural basis for condeming higher education. By marking you for doing nothing wrong is bascially causing divisions in the congregation, which by the Governing Body's own Flock book is a disfellowshipping offense:
The Bible condemns the following:
Causing divisions and promoting sects.
This would be deliberate action disrupting the unity
of the congregation or undermining the confidence
of the brothers in Jehovah's arrangement.
It may involve or lead to apostasy. (Rom. 16:17, 18; Titus 3:10, 11 )
Now, having said all the above, I would follow the suggestions of Miles3 -- That way the elders have no authority over you. That is, if you plan to remain among people who promote the words of men over God's and who will have no respect for you.
48 but if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, my master is delaying, 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites.
there is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.
" mt 24:48-51 nwt.
Thanks for your comments.
You can add to the list the way the GB has seperated and raised itself up over the rest of the anointed, stating that only the GB has authority to interpret scripture.
Also, when the GB changes doctrine without admitting any fault of their own, as if to blame God for giving them false information, isn't that basically blasphemy against the Almighty? Jesus said at John 17:16 that God's "word is truth," and Paul wrote at Romans 3:4: "Let God be true, and every man a liar." According to these verses, would the "men" in this case be the members of the governing body who refuse to apologize to the worldwide congregation in talks and their main publication the Watchtower, and humbly beg for God's forgiveness for speaking lies? Jesus said that Satan is the "father of the lie" and Revelation warns that liars would be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Doesn't this sound like God has already expelled this group?
So even though no human judicial committee has been formed against them, haven't they basically disfellowshipped themselves by their actions? That being the case, would real Christians want to associate with these ones?
So many questions. But I guess actions speak louder than mere (GB) words.
48 but if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, my master is delaying, 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites.
there is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.
" mt 24:48-51 nwt.
48 “But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be." Mt 24:48-51 NWT
The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses fancy themselves members of a "faithful and discreet slave class." But don't their actions in recent years more likely fit the decription of the "Evil Slave" that is mentioned in the above verse? Aren't they really saying "my master is delaying" when they repeatedly change their doctrine on the time of the end as well as their "generation" teaching?
When they reprimand, disfellowship and use God's word to assault and call "mentally diseased" anyone who questions their authority, aren't they in effect "beating" their fellow slaves?
In their own "Insight" book under figurative "Drunkenness" it says the "priests and leaders of Judah became figuratively drunk. As religious guides, they added traditions of men; they saw and spoke false things about God’s holy nation." Well, isn't the governing body also figuratively drunk when it makes up false things about higher education and its handling of child molestation cases in the organization?
By being repeatedly wrong about when the end will come, isn't that proof that the Master will come at an hour that the GB doesn't expect?
Although there are many more comparisons that can be made, isn't this enough to show that the Governing Body is indeed the Evil Slave?
so some of my jw friends can't answer a lot of the questions i put to them.
invariably they end up with the comback line of "this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.
" and state that jws are the only ones doing the preaching.. i suspect most jws who've left have come across this.
"This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." Matt. 24:14
"JWs are the only ones doing the preaching." Better yet, they're the only ones who believe that they're doing this preaching. Not even GOD believes they're doing it. Why not? Because the Witnesses have been at it since 1879 and the end still hasn't come! So obviously it's not being done the way HE wants it to. Either that, or the Witnesses have completely misinterpreted this scripture.
