@ sd-7
Yes...interesting, huh?
In fact, to mainstream religions back then, it was seen as a cult...a contemporary of other 'cults' like the cult of Mithras and so on.
Christianity as a whole seems to fit the bill.
The charismatic carpenter from Galilee sure does fit all the signs of 'cult leader'.
Unless you believe he really WAS who he said he was.
But then, all cult members believe in their guy. That's how it works.
Unlearn
JoinedPosts by Unlearn
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18
The CULT that rarely gets called a CULT...but sure does look like a CULT...
by Unlearn ini found this list below on another site.. you've no doubt seen these lists...or lists similar to them: they give you marked ways to identify a cult.. now, i'm sure many of us agree that these signs eerily match a certain watchtower-slangin' group we're all familiar with.. and im sure that what i'm about to bring up has probably been discussed here sometime before 'my' time.. but, look at these 'cult i.d.
symptoms' below...and let your mind go.
: let your mind freely wander.. who else do these signs apply to...if you think wider?
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Unlearn
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The CULT that rarely gets called a CULT...but sure does look like a CULT...
by Unlearn ini found this list below on another site.. you've no doubt seen these lists...or lists similar to them: they give you marked ways to identify a cult.. now, i'm sure many of us agree that these signs eerily match a certain watchtower-slangin' group we're all familiar with.. and im sure that what i'm about to bring up has probably been discussed here sometime before 'my' time.. but, look at these 'cult i.d.
symptoms' below...and let your mind go.
: let your mind freely wander.. who else do these signs apply to...if you think wider?
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Unlearn
I found this list below on another site.
You've no doubt seen these lists...or lists similar to them: they give you marked ways to identify a cult.
Now, I'm sure many of us agree that these signs eerily match a certain Watchtower-slangin' group we're all familiar with.
And Im sure that what I'm about to bring up has probably been discussed here sometime before 'my' time.
But, look at these 'cult i.d. symptoms' below...and let your mind go. No pre-dispositions, no holy-cows, etc.: let your mind freely wander.
Who else do these signs apply to...if you think wider? Wider than just sects or 'religions'. Bigger. Who else do they match?
For instance, the first point...who does that remind you of?
And no cheating: you can't discount someone just because you 'believe' in him...
-The leader of the group sets himself up as the sole conduit between man and god. He alone is 'the way'.
-The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
- Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. -The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save hu manity.
-The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. -The leader is not accountable to any authorities except god (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
- The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
- Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
- The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members. -Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
- The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group. -
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To SO CAL: What CO's and DO's do we all know?
by IreallydidwalkoutofaKH inokay, in order it goes like this for me............brother peace 1980-83, brother rose 1984-86, brother yasko 1986-88, brother sekella 1988-91, brother billy ford 1992-95, brother davis 1996-99, brother irskin 2000-03 and then it gets kinda blurry....brother burge and another, brother hairston.
okay, that just about does it.
i have this topic becauce i tried reading the favorite co and do thread, but did not recognize any names......
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Unlearn
Steve Misterfeld -
My one memory of his is not good. When I was a teenager, he was serving as C.O. of my friends circuit...across town. I went with my friend to visit the last day of his C.A.
During one of the song intermissions, my friend and I were standing, holding our songbooks and messing around during the song...whispering to each other about this and that...but not singing at all. Suddenly I felt a tap on my back and so did my friend: we had forgotten that we were sitting in front of this guy and his wife. We both turned to find him staring at us. He mouthed the word 'SING'.
And we sung.
After the song was over and intermission started, we waited for the other shoe to drop...surely, he was going to tell my friends parents on us. But, he didn't. Which saved us a bunch of hassle.
SO i guess he has a bit of sympathy coming to him after all. ;) -
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so going to San Francisco next week
by Found Sheep ini've seen many post from those from that area..... anything ex-jw going on?????
may meet one ex-jw i met on facebook ex-jw site....
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Unlearn
Amazing city: my favorite in these United States.
I almost had some business there last week...I look for reasons to go.
Don't know about ex-jw stuff, but if you've never been before, go north of the city, cross the Golden Gate Bridge into Marin County and visit Muir Woods. I know this sounds like the cliched 'trip suggestion', but really, go. Nothing beats standing amid a grove of acres and acres of ancient redwoods...and hearing silence. No birds, no cars, NOTHING. And its 30 minutes north, no long drive or anything.
If you're into reading, go to Green Apple over around Geary Blvd. Probably one of the greatest bookstores I have ever been to...used, new, collectible, bargain stuff...thousands of books, records, cd's, dvd's, and magazines. You'll leave with SOMETHING. I found one of the best bootleg records I've ever heard there, a record full of rare demos by The Smiths.
I love that town. Nothing like it. Dripping with liberalism...good stuff. -
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JWN is enjoying a renaissance!
by Mickey mouse inthe past few months we've welcomed a lot of newbies who have contributed a lot to this forum.
some quality discussions are taking place, the likes of which i haven't seen here for a while.
in addition, many are taking action to expose the watchtower society for who they really are.
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Unlearn
Then let us press on with joy, dear brothers, confident that we need not fear, for Jehovah 'the god of armies' will fight for us!
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JWN is enjoying a renaissance!
by Mickey mouse inthe past few months we've welcomed a lot of newbies who have contributed a lot to this forum.
some quality discussions are taking place, the likes of which i haven't seen here for a while.
in addition, many are taking action to expose the watchtower society for who they really are.
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Unlearn
I remember when both my wife and I were fully 'away' from those people: by that time, we had both been lurkers here for a while. She asked me if I would ever start posting on here, openly. I told her no: I told her that I don't need to do that. I'm content to just be out and walk away from that machine. And, I can admit...there was some fear...both rational and irrational.
But over time, I had some many things I wanted to say, and it became like fiery coals raked into my stomach...uhm...or something.
Actually, over time I got boulder. A little wiser.
Anyone lurking, it feels like you could never make it out...let alone posting on an 'apostate site'!
You will! You will!
Your like is yours! Don't miss it. It's happening to you right now.
Don't worry about the 'future': it's only anxieties of the past, predicted.
You don't know. Don't worry. -
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Panic Attacks
by trailerfitter inhi, i was reading on here a while ago that some of you guys and girls suffer from panic attacks.
how common is this in the jws?
the wife had a bible study today and i was sort of listening looking for a discussion point.
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Unlearn
True story: one of the little supplemental factors in helping my wife to leave were sudden, unexplainable panic attacks.
my wife had NEVER has a panic attack...so the first one really scared us: i was hoping she wasn't having a heart-attack.
It got to the point where she would have one every time we walked in the hall....followed by a very heavy headache.
Towards the end, she missed weeks of meetings because of this...and part of the way through, she put it together.
Strangely, after we were both unified in our stand, and going to meetings for that last 5 or 6 months (until we could formulate our dastardly plan to get the hell out), she had very little of the attacks...maybe a mild breathlessness or dizziness. I think it's because her body and mind had relaxed...knowing what this place was and our relation to it. Those last few months were great (we would play all through the meetings...writing little notes to each other when we heard 'crazy' comments).
People would file into that KH so depressed....the only 'happy' folks there were people who had completely detached from reality...the ones who were 40 years old and living in a studio apt. and working part time with some brothers janitor company, so they could pioneer. Their 'joy' was manufactured.
I remember giving a talk on one particular evening when everyone seemed to be haggard and worn...and I talked about how we shouldn't beat ourselves up and 'take it easy' on ourselves, or we will wear out. After the meeting, of course, a fellow elder pulls me aside and suggests that I dont use that term 'take it easy' with the freinds. he said that 'this is not the time for us to be telling the flock to take it easy on themselves'. i politely told him that even Jehovah sees us as sheep...and he and his son, the shephers, definitely don't want us beating ourselves up about things which he has already forgiven us for. his reply was that i should 'study the way the faithful slave instructs us'. By this time, I was pissed, and told him he needed to 'study Jesus'.
We never talked much after that.
Panic attacks? You bet. You've got a group of people on 'high alert' all the time. A firecracker can't go off without a JW somewhere wondering if it's the first gunshot that will lead to the great tribulation... -
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I've lurked a long time: JW's produce some of the most paranoid humans
by Unlearn ini'll keep this brief for now.. long time lurker (4 years or so).. born-in, elder, used on district level (last talk i gave before i left was the baptisimal talk), and lots of hard time put in...before i finally made the move to split.
it's a long stoy, much like many of yours...but with it's own little interesting twists.
more details in the future, perhaps.. as i said, ive lurked here for a while.. its funny: for a long time i'd only come on late at night.
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Unlearn
Again, thanks so much for the welcoming posts. It feels so good to be around 'my kind'. You know what I mean? I have so many friends....GOOD friends...who sympathize with me, but really don't know what it was like to be a part of a cult that dominates every aspect of your life. You all get it. It just really makes me feel so nice to just speak with you. Thank you.
@ flipper - I received your PM and your information. How so very kind. Thank you.
I hope all the lurkers can one day tell us their stories of how they got out. It's a shock of sorts when you realize that what you thought was SO important was, in reality, some eccentric little 'nothing' dogma. The world...indeed, 'history', does not take the JW's seriously. They are one of those interesting little footnotes in the human trait of 'over-doing' it. And it's genius that their leaders constantly push a 'persecution complex' among their members. It enables them to thrive in adversity. Try to point out to them how utterly useless they are...how misguided and foolish they're belief system is. They feed on your criticism. It's a really basic and nasty system. Boy, I hope you can get the hell out.
Kingdom Halls are boring. And R-Rated movies are just THE BEST. -
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Did the snake or serpent in the garden have free will?
by jam inwas the snake or serpent created perfect, god saw it was.
good.
so if the serpent or snake(presumably innocent).
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Unlearn
The Biblical 'Satan' is the best friend human beings ever had.
The unsung hero of the story.
Im serious. -
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I've lurked a long time: JW's produce some of the most paranoid humans
by Unlearn ini'll keep this brief for now.. long time lurker (4 years or so).. born-in, elder, used on district level (last talk i gave before i left was the baptisimal talk), and lots of hard time put in...before i finally made the move to split.
it's a long stoy, much like many of yours...but with it's own little interesting twists.
more details in the future, perhaps.. as i said, ive lurked here for a while.. its funny: for a long time i'd only come on late at night.
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Unlearn
@ exwhyzee -
I can understand your feelings. Mental programming is hard to break...and obviously some never even attempt it because it would be such a shift in their basic sanity, they steer far clear of anything that challenges their accepted worldview. Still, as is evidenced by all here, it can be done. And of course, anything I say...or anything anyone who's left will say, can be spun into propaganda for the org. This is why it's pointless to engage in continual debate with them. The discussions are very cyclical...and they always come back around to YOUR facts vs THEIR faith...as if the two are somehow equal in weight. Again, I know some of the more religious among us would argue that, in some cases, they are. I don't agree. Just because some FEELS it strongly doesnt make it so. And when any debate topic can spiral down to the eventual '...Because the Bible says so....' statement, well...it's pointless. Because 'holy books' can all be widely interpreted. I say this to offend NO ONE here. It's just my observation. Most religious people will agree that, yes, the Bible IS interpreted in MANY ways: they will also assert that the interpretation THEY believe in is the 'right' one. And to that, I steal a quote from Mr. Lennon: 'Whatever gets you through the night...'
Seriously. I don't wan't to argue dogma anymore. I've wasted years doing that. I just want to be happy. And for years, I haven't needed 'religion' to do it. And I am SO happy.
It should anger you, exwhyzee, to think of an elder still pushing trash when he didn't believe in it. I did it shortly...but it was because I was still trying to hang on. Part of me felt that maybe, I could help 'reform' or wake others up. Some stick with this goal...but I saw it as futile. It's hard to play 'the flickering light' in a windstorm of articles and talks and general paranoia about APOSTASY. It's a gestapo environment. And remember what happened in Nazi germany? the thinkers and artists...when they saw they were banging their heads against the wall trying to appeal to peoples humanity...they got the hell out. The ones who stayed got slayed.
So yes...I did hang in a while, knowing it was a sham...but I truly loved many of those people. Some of them were so damaged and so misguided...and they were so gentle and 'good'. When you've been in this position of 'shepherd'..and you've really bought into it...really believe you should lay out for these folks, it affects what you do and how quickly you walk away. At least it did to me. An extensive family in the org makes it worse. And, to be honest, my last years worth of talks were all about basic goodness...how to treat each other, how to feel good about yourself...things like that. I turned down public talks and other talks, including the memorial, because I couldnt deal with it. The one thing I do regret was that final baptisimal talk. 4 people got baptized, among them a young couple. THey came up at the end of the day Saturday to shake me hand and thank me, with tears in their eyes. My wife can attest to the disturbed feeling i was covered with that weekend, and to this day. It's a motivating factor for the things Ive done to assist others since leaving the org...and the things that I am going to do soon. Do I feel that 'god' will get me for that or that I must go save a certain amount of souls to make up for these? Naaah. Thats the kind of superstitious mythology that I've walked away from. No one is coming to get me...or to 'settle' with me. Things happen...some good, some bad. You screw up...sometimes badly. It's unfortunate. It's life.
@ dontplaceliterature
Man, I can't stress this enough...if you can move, far away...do it.
Here's what's funny: all the things that JW's push to keep their flocks 'strong and spiritual' are quite defined in their books and mags and talks. Do the OPPOSITE of these things, and you will get 'weak' by their standards (which actually means you'll become more normal and healthy by sane peoples standards). MOVE. Isolate her from everything she knew (people-wise). It sounds cruel, maybe...but it's not. Think of it this way, she's an alcoholic...and she's beginning to realize it during certain moments of clarity. Privately, she'll turncoat on some of their core defining rules (blood). Here's the problem: she 'works' in a liquor store. So, she goes to this place that she's been told 'she must'...and she sips here and there. And she only sips the 'light' stuff...a little wine...She reasons that the 'heavy' liquor is not good for her...so as long as she is discerning about what she sips, she's ok. But you can see the real problem: she regularly spends time IN the store. So why does she keep going to the store? Well, she feels she HAS to, first off. It's her job. She HAS to go. She has friends and maybe family who also work there. She likes seeing them. The liquor store is an environment where they see themselves safe and 'free'. But there's a deeper reason...and sometimes it's the strongest one: if she leaves the liquor store job, she may not be able to find another job. THIS is 'in the hand'. It terrifies her to think of having NO job.
So, she goes to work. An alcoholic. At the liquor store. Where she sips wine.
Get her away from that store. When you can move far away, you at least force her to have to go through all of the trouble of finding a new hall, making new friends...getting 'comfortable'. It's hard, especially if she has to do it alone. Again, it seems cruel, but it's not. JW's will do much meaner things than that because they believe theyre 'saving your life'.
It's why they push and push meeting attendance. From what I see, it starts there. You're dealing with a mind 'addicted' to the 'liquor' of this org...and that hall is the 'liquor store'. They will tell you in their own literature that, if you start missing meetings regularly, YOU WILL FALL OUT OF THE TRUTH. They're telling you how to kill JW spirituality.
Those of us trying to get friends and loved ones to wake up...I think we should remember the old teachings...and the things they obsessively push to keep their flocks 'strong'. Remember them, and then 'reverse engineer' them.
- Find reasons to miss meeting.
- Find reasons to miss field service.
- Find reasons to not go out with other JW's in association.
And look for people who are not JW's and are doing good in the world or in your community. Point out the good in the world. Doom and gloom religions thrive on the idea that the world is 'worse than it has ever been'. Bullshit. It won't be hard to find 'good'...it's everywhere. Point it out...and then point out that JW's lore, logic, or knowledge had NOTHING to do with it.
Obviously, Im not telling you what you SHOULD do...you're no doubt a smart man, and you know your lady better than anyone else.
Just mentioning a few of the things that helped me when I was in your situation.
Life is a big beautiful forest...so much to see and do and explore. This cult is the section of fence near the outskirts of the woods, that you get your coat snagged on. It holds you up from the real world. Those poor worldly folks were right all the time.