Bobcat, yes, I agree with you that Paul placed the resurrection of the worthies during Christ's presence, which the WTS places in the 20th century. But who forgot to tell Stephen?
Socrateswannabe
JoinedPosts by Socrateswannabe
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Did Stephen believe he would have to wait 2000 years for a resurrection?
by Socrateswannabe inin acts 7:59, the jews were casting stones at stephen and his last words were, "lord jesus, receive my spirit.".
the wts has contended that all of the ancients who died after jesus were in a sleep-like condition, awaiting a resurrection that eventually happened in 1918-1919 (depending upon which wt reference you are looking at).
and in fact, v. 60 says stephen "fell asleep in death".
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Did Stephen believe he would have to wait 2000 years for a resurrection?
by Socrateswannabe inin acts 7:59, the jews were casting stones at stephen and his last words were, "lord jesus, receive my spirit.".
the wts has contended that all of the ancients who died after jesus were in a sleep-like condition, awaiting a resurrection that eventually happened in 1918-1919 (depending upon which wt reference you are looking at).
and in fact, v. 60 says stephen "fell asleep in death".
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Socrateswannabe
In Acts 7:59, the Jews were casting stones at Stephen and his last words were, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
The WTS has contended that all of the ancients who died after Jesus were in a sleep-like condition, awaiting a resurrection that eventually happened in 1918-1919 (depending upon which WT reference you are looking at). And in fact, V. 60 says Stephen "fell asleep in death".
But his first utterance, asking Jesus by the way, not Jehovah, to receive his spirit, seems to indicate that he expected an instant resurrection to heaven. I don't see any explanation from the WTS regarding this scripture, or how it can be taken any other way. Admittedly, I no longer believe the bible as truth, I'm not convinced that there was a man named Stephen or that he spoke any of these words, just as most of the other bible characters were, I believe, fictional and the stories carried the agendas of those writing them. However, shouldn't this give the WTS fits? How could they possibly account for it?
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Tech49 on HOURS, TIME, and REPORTS
by Tech49 ini thought i would share some of my observations on counting field service time, reports, etc.
and how those reports are viewed, to those that are still so fixated on numbers.. i served as secretary on the service committee for many years, and have seen it all!.
i was really disheartened when wt changed the requirement for aux pioneering to allow for 30 hrs, instead of the 50 it has been for so long.
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Socrateswannabe
Tech49, you are right on all counts. Over the past decade, I have seen a marked increase in the COs being numbers men. We had one moron who analyzed our circuit with the same scrutiny that a Wall Street banker would use on a potential IPO. We were analyzed up, down, and sideways, and were told how we compared in every category to the other congregations in the circuit. Then when the week is over and the CO hands you your copy of the S-303 form (his report to the branch on his visit with your congregation), it is full of self-agrandizement and pats on the back for the marvelous achievements that he made happen while he was gracing us with his presence.
The 30 hour requirement was a major and in my opinion a non-reversible mistake by the GB or whoever came up with this ridiculous idea. Now they have worked themselves into the same hole as US carmakers did back a decade or so ago (one with which they are still struggling). In order to sell more cars, the most desperate auto manufacturer (I don't remember which one but it was probably Chrysler) introduced zero percent interest for 3, 4, or 5 years. Initially it seemed like a great idea because they definitely sold more cars. All of the other domestic manufacturers had to offer the same deal, otherwise they would lose sales. The problem is that they were teaching the American public never to buy a new car unless they can buy it with zero percent financing. Sure enough, once the incentives went away, new car sales dropped off dramatically. Another round of zero percent loans were put in place, and the cycle was firmly entrenched.
We see two things in our congregation. One is very similar to what you experienced, and that is that close to half the publishers sign up for 30 hours in one of the "special" months, and of those, about half fail to make the 30, including many of the elders and their families. The second thing we've seen is, NOBODY auxiliary pioneers anymore unless it's a 30 hour month. In the past two years that this program has been in place, I think I've seen 2 maybe applications that had 50 hours marked on them. So now the WTS has created its own monster. They have a big showing in March every year of 30 hour pioneers, they have a smattering of 30 hour pioneers on the months that the CO visits (a new "provision), but that's it, baby! Hung by their own petard!
These guys are not exactly rocket scientists up in Brooklyn or Patterson or wherever they're holed up these days!
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Should all elders be painted with the same brush?
by Socrateswannabe inan hour or two ago, i was reading a topic on this forum that welcomed new elders to jwn.
there was some criticism aimed at the op and i understand that elders shouldn't be singled out as special.
one poster said he/she hates all elders.
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Socrateswannabe
XBEHERE, I feel your pain, truly.
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Should all elders be painted with the same brush?
by Socrateswannabe inan hour or two ago, i was reading a topic on this forum that welcomed new elders to jwn.
there was some criticism aimed at the op and i understand that elders shouldn't be singled out as special.
one poster said he/she hates all elders.
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Socrateswannabe
Thank you Painted ToeNail!
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Should all elders be painted with the same brush?
by Socrateswannabe inan hour or two ago, i was reading a topic on this forum that welcomed new elders to jwn.
there was some criticism aimed at the op and i understand that elders shouldn't be singled out as special.
one poster said he/she hates all elders.
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Socrateswannabe
Painted ToeNail, I am very interested in that. Would you give me the title of any of these books? I would really like to pursue it. Thank you!
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Should all elders be painted with the same brush?
by Socrateswannabe inan hour or two ago, i was reading a topic on this forum that welcomed new elders to jwn.
there was some criticism aimed at the op and i understand that elders shouldn't be singled out as special.
one poster said he/she hates all elders.
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Socrateswannabe
Thanks Pickler and Blondie. The sinking ship analogy is a good one, Blondie. The only reason why it is not a perfect analogy is because with a sinking ship, the only option is get off or die. In JW land, my wife and children will certainly not lead as full a life as they would if they learned TTATT and if we all left as a family, but they will not die as a result of staying. I can say that because I have already made up my mind that if a blood transfusion is ever an issue with any of my family, that is where I will draw the line. I will do whatever is necessary to preserve their lives, even if it means getting myself DFed for it. So you can imagine that I am hoping mightily that none of them ever get into that situation.
Regarding child molestation, fortunately I have never had to be involved in a case. Since being appointed, our congregation has not had to deal with that issue. Before Candace Conti, I have to admit that I had not given it much thought. I simply viewed it as tragic but didn't face the fact that I could have to deal with it some day. Since Candace, however, I have thought about it more. I have already stated that I always lobby for mercy in a judicial situation but that is the one area that I would never be satisfied for anything less than DFing, not because I think it would do the perpetrator any spiritual good by being disciplined, but because it is one way to get the offender away from our kids. I don't care what the WTS says, no elder should counsel a victim or their family against informing the police. If the family chooses not to, I don't know what I would do but I have told other elders in my congregation that my conscience would not allow me to remain silent and that I would have to report if no one else does. So far I haven't gotten any blowback from that.
None of this is ideal, that's for sure. But I don't have any better answers at this point.
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Should all elders be painted with the same brush?
by Socrateswannabe inan hour or two ago, i was reading a topic on this forum that welcomed new elders to jwn.
there was some criticism aimed at the op and i understand that elders shouldn't be singled out as special.
one poster said he/she hates all elders.
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Socrateswannabe
Elders or JWs in general are no different than the rest of the population. The WTS would like for you to think that they are, but that is false. If we were talking about a hospital rather than a congregation of JWs, you would find good doctors and nurses and you would find bad ones in every hospital you examined. The biggest difference between a JW elder and a healthcare provider is that most healthcare providers have access to the same technology, which continues to get better with time and research. How the doctors choose to use it is still up to them, but the technology always progresses. JW doctrine was bad to begin with and has gone steadily downhill.
There is a saying that it is a poor workman who blames his tools. However I don't believe that is so when a caring person finds himself in the position of being an elder. As some of you have pointed out, he is ill equipped to provide the kind of help that people really need. Elders are not trained as family counselors or psychologists. We are not even trained to the degree that the clergy are trained in other Christian religions. So if you're not getting what you need from an elder, there are good reasons for that.
The appointment process is also horribly flawed. A group of local elders, themselves chosen in the same manner, make a recommendation to the Society for an appointment. I have seen elders recommended by local bodies due to merit (or at least what JWs would consider merit), and I have also seen people recommended because of nepotism and a host of other questionable motivations. The basis for the recommendation is always stated as the candidate's measurement in comparison to 1 Timothy Chapter 3 and Titus Chapter 1, but few of us really can live up to those standards and the official line is that a candidate has to measure up within a reasonable degree. JWs pretend that elders are appointed by holy spirit, but even their own literature now states that they no longer believe that elders are appointed directly by holy spirit. The latest explanation is that it was holy spirit that directed the writing of the bible. The bible contains the requirements for eldership. If a man meets those requirements, he is indirectly appointed by holy spirit. So, many unqualified men serve as elders in the congregations.
Many of you have said that you have had personal experiences with good men who serve or have served as elders. I'm glad to hear that. At least the flock is not being skinned by every elder out there. Other posters, like Pickler, have been hurt too many times by too many uncaring elders to have any good feelings toward the "office" that these men hold. I understand that too. I have seen elders in my own congregation say and do incredibly hurtful and stupid things that caused permanent damage to others. Fortunately my BoE has a coordinator who is a genuinely good man and he has taken the lead in chastising and correcting that kind of ignorant behavior when he hears about it, but in many cases you can't un-ring a bell either.
I guess I can't really say that I disagree with any of you because you all have points that are valid because of your own experiences. If I understand Blondie's comment correctly, she says that I am complicit in the wrongdoing of the WTS and elders in general because I keep silent. That is something that I think about quite a bit and struggle with. Ideally, anyone enlightened would leave the Org. I have explained my motivations for staying-my wife and children. I can't believe that I'm the only one in this situation. I love my family and I will go down with the ship before I allow myself to appear to them as a traitor. It didn't seem so at the time, but we were all better off when I was just one of those "unbelieving husbands". At least I wasn't living a lie and my family was wishing for a spiritual head but was not suffering terribly from the lack of one.
So I am here for the duration, unless my family manages to see the light. In my OP I said that I am trying to make the best of it. I do outside reading (including this forum). In shepherding, I use what I have learned from non-JW books and articles. I do not rely solely on the scriptures, most of which I do not believe. The Psalms, Proverbs, a few of the sayings attributed to Jesus in the NT, contain words of comfort and I stick to that. I don't use the majority of the bible when I attempt to help people. Most of it is hurtful and completely counterproductive. Yet I am still ill equipped and in some cases may be doing more harm than good without even knowing it. But I have to try. I am not that old so I have decades ahead of me, and I have to try to do something that will justify, at least to myself, my existence. Since my path is not my own, I have to do the best I can with what I've been given.
The more I write the more I realize I think I started this topic for the purpose of asking that I not be painted with the same brush as other elders, especially the ones you find so reprehensible. Now I wish I hadn't made this topic so self-centered. I can't imagine that I'm the only one who finds himself in this position, or that I'm the only one who tries to go beyond WTS sanctioned rules to help others. I think there are other brothers in my own congregation who have similar circumstances, and I'm sure there are many more elsewhere.
Every time I read JWN I learn something. I have learned much from all of you on this topic. Thank you for your help.
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Should all elders be painted with the same brush?
by Socrateswannabe inan hour or two ago, i was reading a topic on this forum that welcomed new elders to jwn.
there was some criticism aimed at the op and i understand that elders shouldn't be singled out as special.
one poster said he/she hates all elders.
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Socrateswannabe
Thanks to all of you for your responses. I need some time to digest what you've said and may address some of your posts later. I am glad to be part of a community where those who agree as well as those who disagree can have an open exchange. That is a refreshing change from an organization that allows no questioning or dissention, as the WTS. Thank you all.
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Should all elders be painted with the same brush?
by Socrateswannabe inan hour or two ago, i was reading a topic on this forum that welcomed new elders to jwn.
there was some criticism aimed at the op and i understand that elders shouldn't be singled out as special.
one poster said he/she hates all elders.
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Socrateswannabe
Thanks for the kind words, Painted Toenail